Do these guys have the right to hassle me?

[m_d19]

<p>Hello,<br>

I was taking photos of a concert at this fair with a Canon 85mm f1.8 lens and a Rebel body and after the show, someone from the fair stopped me and asked for accreditation - I was there shooting strictly for my own enjoyment and had no intention of selling images or anything - and I said that I don't have a media pass and that I was not going to sell any images. She kept asking me for my name to run thru the cross referenced list which I refused to give ... I told her that the camera rules were not broken and that I was not shooting professionally and that again that I was not going to sell any images. The next thing she told me was that she talked to me and the next time they can confiscated my equipment. Am I in the wrong, am I in trouble if I go shoot again this week at the same place?<br>

Here's the website:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.pne.ca/thefair/live_shows_exhibits/live_shows/nightly_music.htm">http://www.pne.ca/thefair/live_shows_exhibits/live_shows/nightly_music.htm</a></p>

<p>for those that don't want to bother going to the site, here's an excerpt from the site:</p>

<p><strong>Cameras & videos: </strong><br /><br />The Fair at the PNE requires that all photographs or videos taken by guests be used for their personal enjoyment ONLY. Any use, reuse or reproduction for commercial purposes without the express written consent of the PNE is prohibited. Please note that cameras are not permitted on rides.</p>

<p>Thanks for your comments.</p>

<p> </p>

[richterjw]

<p>Maybe just make a small print off, like the excerpt above, to show someone their own policy if they approach you. They can't legally confiscate your equipment regardless, but they can ask you to leave if you are not (or they perceive you are not) complying with their standards. But if photographer's had a nickel for every time they got hassled when they were within there privilege...well, that'd be a lot of nickels. JR</p>

[fullmetalphotograper]

<p>In the U.S.A. they can not seize your gear or image any attempt can be thought as grand theft depending on the value of the gear even be considered a felony.<br>

With that said they do have the right to restrict images being taken. Most concerts it the band, manager or label that has to give permission. The fair itself can only make a request to the band for images to be taken. What bands are basically protecting is their image or trademark. If the event was open to the general public (free) in a public area (like a park) then they could not restrict you from taking photos but would need a release to sell them commercially.</p>

[mbh]

<p>This concerns Canada, so a decent Internet resource to check out is <a href="http://ambientlight.ca/laws.php">http://ambientlight.ca/laws.php</a>. This web site provides cites and references concerning Canadian laws on photography. My common-sense take (and when it comes to the law, common sense often flies out the window, so I may well be wrong and you'd be wise to consult a Canadian attorney for actually useful advice) is that the Fair is located on private property. So they can set any rules they want regarding photography.</p>

<p>Before anyone spoke to you, the rules that appied were the rules they posted on their web site (no commercial photography, etc.). After the fair employee came up and if they told you no more photography, you'd be obligated to follow their rules (it's their property). I don't think they could confiscate your equipment in any event. At worst, they would have to turn the matter over to the police or sue you civilly.</p>

<p>As for going back, if they told you not to photograph their, I would expect this means you would essentially be trespassing or violating your implied license to be on their property if you did photograph. I would call up their office and speak with someone (get a name and the time you spoke to them) and say, I understand that I can take pictures as long as their for my own personal use and reference their policy on the web site. The person will probably say, "Yes, that's right."</p>

<p>Now if you go, you can say, I spoke to so-and-so at the front office for the fair and they said it was all right for me to take photographs. Mind you, I would be tempted not to go back, but if you want to go back, the telephone call is a good way to go. And bring a print out of their policies as someone suggested.</p>

<p>My advice for what it's worth.</p>

[elliot1]

<p>It seems that cameras with removable lenses are taboo at many venues. I took a D40 with a 50mm lens to a recent monster truck event and was held up at the entrance because the camera's lens was removable. It took a manager to let me through as the D40 did not exceed their 'size' restrictions. She informed me that they don't allow video questioning the camera's abilities. I then asked if they were going to stop everyone with cell phones and P&S cameras from entering as many of those record both video and stills. She shrugged her shoulders. Needless to say, I saw many, many people shooting video with their cell phones.</p>

<p>Since they warned you, I would suggest you follow their rules. As Mark explains, they can set the rules on their property. A possible solution is to take a less conspicuous camera like a P&S if you have one. And put on a disguise!</p>

[derek_kennedy]

<p>"Since they warned you, I would suggest you follow their rules." - he WAS following the posted rules.</p>

<p>Personally I would tell the guy where to go since you were following the rules. THe rules were set by the owners, the workers cant enforce their own rules, only the parks rules - If I am not breaking the rules, I'm going to stand up for my rights (which in this case my(your) rights were given to me(you) by the park owners which stated that you(I) can take photos (just not ON the rides) for your OWN enjoyment).</p>

<p>"The next thing she told me was that she talked to me and the next time they can confiscated my equipment."- I would then tell her that if she touches me I would charge her for assault and that if she takes my equipment I'd have her arrested for stealing my equipment.</p>

<p>IMO, she was harassing you since you were in fact following the posted rules that the owners of the park themselves had posted.</p>

[steve m smith]

<blockquote>

<p>As Mark explains, they can set the rules on their property. A possible solution is to take a less conspicuous camera like a P&S if you have one. And put on a disguise!</p>

</blockquote>

<p>But they can't change the rules from those advertised once you have bought a ticket.</p>

[john_h.1]

<p><em>they can't change the rules from those advertised once you have bought a ticket.</em><br /><em></em><br />I don't know about Canada but the general rule may be similar to the U.S.</p>

<p>Let's be careful not to confuse real property rights with contracts. Having a ticket to go on someone else's land is merely a revocable license to be on the land. Merely permission if you will. That permission can be revoked at anytime along with whatever activities the visitor is engaging in. If there was a contract involved then the person whose permission was revoked can bring an action in court for the breach of the contract. Good luck trying to do that in a scenerio like this.</p>

<p>To illustrate this in a more familiar way, someone could be at your home to do something that may involve some kind of contract. You, as the land owner, have every right to tell your visitor to leave for whatever reason you choose. They can't just stay there while you are powerless to do anything just because there is some other contract issue involved. The visitor must rely on contract remedies to be made whole for any losses.</p>

<p>The cases I have seen indicate that the remedy of a breach of contract involving purchased tickets is the ticket price. A scenerio like this one is not about a photographer hired to shoot something for the landowner who was kicked out, its about someone buying a ticket. Anyone in such a scenerio will need to check for deviations in their particular jurisdiction but, in general, the property owner can change the rules and be subject to contractual consequences later.</p>

<p> </p>

[thomas_sullivan]

<p>I don't know Canadian law...and am not a lawyer, anyhow....but if you look at the venue's annual reports, you will see that the fair grounds are owned by the City of Vancouver. In the USA, that would mean that it was public property....NOT private property. In the USA, only the bands wishes of photographic rules would be permitted....save safety rules that the park might need to enforce. In Canada, I have no idea.</p>

[steve m smith]

<blockquote>

<p>Let's be careful not to confuse real property rights with contracts. Having a ticket to go on someone else's land is merely a revocable license to be on the land. Merely permission if you will. That permission can be revoked at anytime along with whatever activities the visitor is engaging in. If there was a contract involved then the person whose permission was revoked can bring an action in court for the breach of the contract. Good luck trying to do that in a scenerio like this.</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>I would argue (with a UK perspective) that a ticket is a contract. If you were stopped from doing something which is allowed in the terms and conditions of entry, then that is a breach of contract. As is being ejected from the site for doing something which was allowed.</p>

<p>I agree with the good luck bit!</p>

[hjoseph7]

<p>"The next thing she told me was that she talked to me and the next time they can confiscated my equipment."- I would then tell her that if she touches me I would charge her for assault and that if she takes my equipment I'd have her arrested for stealing my equipment."<br>

=================================================<br>

That is why I allways carry my monopod with a 2 pound head on it when I go to these things. These people are really getting ridiculous. I bet it's more out of spite than anything legal.</p>

[roger krueger]

<i>In the USA, only the bands wishes of photographic rules would be permitted</i>

<br><br>

Unfortunately that's not how it really works. First there's the issue that most public venues are leased to a private promoter

for concerts. As long as they enforce their rules with their security mere public ownership of the property isn't enough "state

action" to invoke the 1st Amendment... or 4th for that matter.

<br><br>

More importantly, the 1st is very good at protecting the publication of pictures, but very seldom protects TAKING them. The

one time I can find where it was litigated regarding concerts the court decided taking pictures was mere conduct, and unprotected.

<br><br>

I wrote a really long post on this the other day in a thread at "Photography is Not a Crime" on flickr, complete with links to

cases. If you have an hour to waste reading... http://www.flickr.com/groups/photography_is_not_a_crime/discuss/72157622018769711/

[thomas_sullivan]

<p>"...First there's the issue that most public venues are leased to a private promoter for concerts..."...I agree with you on that. My post was only to combat the general impression that other posters were creating in that the property was private. Instead of saying "band's wishes"...........I probably should have added....etal.....publisists, promoters, agents, etc.</p>

[Brad_]

<a href= "http://richmondsfblog.com/blog/2009/08/26/a-residents-guide-to-outside-lands-festival/">Not uncommon</a> (half

way down). A venue operator can control what comes into their gates.

[john_h.1]

<p><em>a ticket is a contract</em><br>

<em></em><br>

It seems likely given the history of anglo land practices and the fact that a ticket, itself, generally does contain the elements needed to create contract, that they are not contracts, per se in the UK. The ticket is ordinarily what is given IN a contract rather than BEING a contract. The result is that someone can still be ejected from someone else's land leaving that person to pursue other remedies as to any contract issues. In any event, for this point to matter, you would need to be able to say that landowners can't make people leave their land, dwellings or even homes in the UK if someone is there due to some contract. One would need a lease in order to have the assert a right to be physically present which is specially created for that purpose. A ticket is not a lease.</p>

<p>If land owners in the UK cannot make someone leave their land when that person doesn't have a lease and merely has a ticket, then that is interesting to know for photographers there.</p>

[jeff_livacich]

<p>I don't know Canadian law, but I doubt it's much different from US law on this. Still, take this as opinion only.</p>

<p>I think the thing to do is to speak to the people in charge of the whole thing, as advised in detail in other posts.<br /> Threatening to confiscate your equipment is threatening to commit an illegal act upon you. Most venue operators want their people to be courteous and not overstep any legal bounds.<br /> You were within well delineated bounds on your behavior. You gave assurances that you would use the images in accordance with their policy. The policy prohibits any commercial use of pictures or video. Only if you do that have you violated the policy.<br /> That person is not qualified to divine your intent. The threat to confiscate your equipment shows a couple of things: a lack of understanding of the law, and possibly of the venue's policy, and a slightly "drunk with power" mindset. Both show a lack of training.<br /> In the US, confiscating your equipment would be theft, and taking it off your body would be assault. There's also the issue of you being singled out.</p>

[mark_drutz]

<p>It's not uncommon for security people to not know the rules. You have the rules from the fairground's website so unless the site is incorrect you are in the right. I would ask the security guard to see a supervisor who hopefully knows the rules. This actually happened to me at Ft. Wadsworth on Staten Island. The fort is part of the Gateway National Recreation Area run by the Park Service and it is also partly a military post. I was taking pictures of the Verrazanno Narrows Bridge which runs through the park and an MP stopped me, telling me that pictures were not permitted on a military post. I politely told him that the fort was run by the park service and that photography was permitted. I told him that he could check with the ranger station which was nearby. He did and they confirmed what I had told him. He apolagized and went on his way, and I got some nice pictures.</p>

[jpo3136b]

<p>If someone takes your stuff, just call the police. People cannot go around taking your cameras because you are on private property any more than they can take your car from you when you park it on the private property of a parking lot. If they could, the checkout clerk at the grocery store would be driving a Porsche.</p>

<p>Pretty much, only the Police can put their hands on you or your stuff, temporarily, and with reason. Almost all of those reasons are going to be centered around conserving and protecting life and property, including yours. Even then, their actions should have only temporary consequences; with longer-term consequences being determined after discussion in court. Police officers are self-defense fighters; they should not be attacking or sacking and looting. Get a lawyer if you have a real problem.</p>

<p>Now, that said, People Skills Time. When you get into a conflict with a prideful person who wants to tell you all about their power and what they can do, just listen and make your replies like you were talking to your grandma. You can easily take control of the situation by being the first to reduce the aggressiveness of the conversation. A smile, wave, passive body postures, leading question to get them to talk about themselves instead of you, presentation of a business card (to demonstrate your personal accountability), or simply saying "thanks," and walking away after a three second delay, can all neutralize pushy people.</p>

<p>For your concert photos, I would just call somebody and wrangle a face to face appointment. I find that people are far less likely to say no once they meet someone who is making a request. If they've got business concerns like promotional entertainment agents or something, they'll be able to outline those. Those people, too, are people you can meet with for simple negotiations.</p>

<p>You can turn that situation around a lot better, if you proceed with confidence, but don't try to be openly aggressive when dealing with prideful or defensive people.</p>

<p>If you give it a shot, and it doesn't work, then you don't need those losers. We've got about 100 million people in this world who can play three notes on a guitar.</p>

[Brad_]

Most excellent advice in all aspects from John, right above...

[jpo3136b]

<p>When people start off by being pushy, their line of thinking inclines them to make their next layer of response even more aggressive. Often, they are totally unprepared for observing extra-polite passive compliance. By being extra-polite, and stunning their psyche with a response they are unprepared for, you can open them to manipulation. Frequently, what you will want to manipulate them into giving you is they're-leaving-you alone.</p>

<p>The most skilled manipulators I've seen can accomplish this by simply standing there silently, and smiling. The silence that follows often makes the more aggressive person speak again, saying something else. This cycle continues until the speaking person says something the passive person approves of. Then the passive person can "reward" the speaker by replying, thus manipulating the speaker with a punishment and reward system. Long story there; just be nice and smile. </p>

<p>Neutralize the aggression, and they'll often run out of things to say in about a minute.</p>

<p>P.S. Thank you, Brad.</p>

[m_d19]

<p>Thank you everybody for the responses. I did go back and shoot yesterday and had no problems. I had made sure I contact the media department and they mentioned that as a regular fairgoer, there is no problem. They only require pros to check in at the media tent.</p>

[daverhaas]

<p>It sounds like you had an over zealous security guard. Which does happen on occasion. Keep in mind that the security for events such as fairs (here in the states anyhow) are often police officers working overtime and getting paid very little for the hours that they work the fair. </p>

<p>Most fairs have rules that sound similar to yours - if you are a media member then you need to register at the media center. If you are a hobbyist - your okay without registering. The challenge for the officer is to determine a) are you a media photographer and b) are you registered.</p>

<p>Since most media members today shoot with DSLR's the security makes an errant assumption that anyone with a DSLR and a big lens (which is the most absurd way in the world to tell a pro from an amatuer) is a pro.</p>

<p>dave</p>