Sheesh ... Street Photography is HARD!

william l. palminteri · August 25, 2009

<a href="../photodb/user?user_id=153336">Brad -</a> <a href="../member-status-icons"><img title="Subscriber" src="http://static.photo.net/v3graphics/member-status-icons/sub10.gif" alt="" /><img title="Frequent poster" src="http://static.photo.net/v3graphics/member-status-icons/3rolls.gif" alt="" /></a>, Aug 25, 2009; 09:50 a.m.

>>> My goodness, Ton, is THAT your impression of us here in the U.S of A.? It's sad that the news media, etc. gives the world that impression.

Where did he say the entire US is like that?

</blockquote>

He didn't say one way or the other, but his use if the word 'infested' sounded a bit alarming, which is why I asked the question. Note the question mark.

There are neighborhoods I would be very careful in. And that's not an impression from the news media.

</blockquote>

The same applies to me, but only in the NYC area, and that's because I live here. I wouldn't run around South Central L.A. playing the fool, because I don't live there, I don't know those streets, but because the news media implies that it would be unwise to do so. Where else do people get their information ?

If, indeed... John, without breaks, who would want to read your monster paragraphs?

</blockquote>

Brad, maybe not everyone is the sophisticated, streetwise world traveler you seem to be, and that's fine, but perhaps someone who does read John's post will avoid a potentially lethal situation. What a blessing !

Hey, here's an idea.....

If you do, in fact, have all of this street wisdom, maybe you could join John and myself in helping people to avoid the potential dangers of the streets and have more fun with their cameras!

Stay alive and healthy,

Bill P.

Brad_ · August 25, 2009

>>> Brad, maybe not everyone is the sophisticated, streetwise world traveler you seem to be,

Where was that claim made?

>>> If you do, in fact, have all of this street wisdom, ...

Same response. Street wisdom?

I just go out and shoot to have fun. It's no more complicated than that.

william l. palminteri · August 25, 2009

<a href="../photodb/user?user_id=153336">Brad -</a> <a href="../member-status-icons"><img title="Subscriber" src="http://static.photo.net/v3graphics/member-status-icons/sub10.gif" alt="" /><img title="Frequent poster" src="http://static.photo.net/v3graphics/member-status-icons/3rolls.gif" alt="" /></a>, Aug 25, 2009; 10:40 a.m.

>>> Brad, maybe not everyone is the sophisticated, streetwise world traveler you seem to be,

Where was that claim made?

</blockquote>

I never said it was a claim, hence I chose the word "seem", and you said it here....

"There are neighborhoods I would be very careful in. And that's not an impression from the news media."

>>> If you do, in fact, have all of this street wisdom, ...

Same response. Street wisdom?

</blockquote>

Same answer. That's why I chose the phrase "if you do in fact....".

I just go out and shoot to have fun. It's no more complicated than that.

</blockquote>

If that were true, you wouldn't be here nit picking my and John's posts.

My guess is that, with your cavalier attitude toward this method of street shooting, you're darned lucky to not have gotten into a jam so far.

I'm done here. This is pointless and off-topic.

Best of luck to you,

Bill P.

Brad_ · August 25, 2009

>>> My guess is that, with your cavalier attitude toward this method of street shooting, you're darned lucky to not have

gotten into a jam so far.

OK, so now you say I have a cavalier attitude because I revealed that my take on SP is going out to shoot to

have fun. Interesting.

>>> I'm done here. This is pointless and off-topic.

Off-topic? Why? Seems squarely on-topic to me.

tonmestrom · August 25, 2009

first of all, if you use some basic common sense, it's not only safe but above all fun shooting on the street

that's what we should be talking about because it's the truth. It's no good scaring people like Laura away from the streets with "war stories". Most street shooters who get into trouble have only themselves to blame. That was basically the message I was trying to convey. I've been and still am out there a lot and it's been a lot of fun, period. The only time I nearly got into trouble was because I was a stupid fool who should have known better.

Laura et al,

some people choose to shoot in areas that are known not to be safe. That however is not a reflection of what it is like out there for most of us, not by a long shot.

tonmestrom · August 25, 2009

My goodness, Ton, is THAT your impression of us here in the U.S of A.? It's sad that the news media, etc. gives the world that impression.

</blockquote>

No Bill, as Brad already has pointed out that's not what I said. But you do have a gang problem in certain neighbourhoods. And it certainly isn't the media that give us that impression. But as I've kept repeating going there and running the risk of getting into trouble is a matter of choice. But all in all it's easy to shoot in virtually every city and do it safely.

eric_arnold · August 25, 2009

It's no good scaring people like Laura away from the streets with "war stories".

</blockquote>

there is a difference between combat photography and street photography in the basic sense. while i get john's point, it belongs in a different thread. i could do without all the chest-puffing and one-upsmanship too. john, if you wanted to post your resume or make a case for a book deal, why are you doing it here?

i've never been shot while photographing and i do live in a city with a lot of crime in certain areas, which has had riots, civil disturbances, sideshows, you name it (Oakland, CA). i tend to keep my wits about me and dont venture into places i shouldn't be while shooting street. that's just common sense.<div></div>

eric_arnold · August 25, 2009

another view, same city...<div>

00UJMX-167657584.jpg.16522e800954b0372d4be7d663ea0b5b.jpg

</div>

akochanowski · August 25, 2009

Perhaps I'm just stating the obvious but John's posts seems to largely be about....John. To the extent they are not, and to the extent I could struggle through them, they are an equal mix of the obvious and the tedious. Yes, I think we could all agree walking around drunk with a camera is a recipe neither for a healthy tomorrow nor for your artistic legacy.

johncrosley · August 25, 2009

Ton,

I do like and admire you and your photography, and indeed I never have more fun than when shooting 'street'. It is my raison d'etre, basically. I wouldn't have it any other way.

But you are giving people advice on the possibility and probability of 'trouble' and the possibilities and ways to avoid it.

I would like to evaluate the worth of your advice, and so ask you to reveal besides your native land, and Paris which you've mentioned, where else in the world you've been taking 'street' photos.

We could long see from the portfolio of amazing photographer Frederic Pascual where he's been, but he does not speak or write adequate English for this discussion. He's been almost everywhere, and would be a great contributor to this discussion, if he were able. He's walked among the people of a large number of lands, and I would listen to his advice in a heartbeat, because I suspect his attitude based on viewing his captures.

Would you please be so kind as to share the information with us about your geographic shooting experience, as the advice you give posssibly stems from the breadth of your experience, not just the length.

I've detailed of some of the geographic areas I've shot in and/or lived in and visited, and wish you'd so the same. I think it would be very helpful.

We do not hold diametrically opposing views on the value of 'street photography' - we both think it's loads of fun, we both have made literally tons of friends and acquaintances we'd never have met in any other way, had experiences that are incomparable, but in some manner our emphasis here seems to differ, and I'd like to see if there's a fundamental reason for that.

I am wondering if a comparison of the geographic areas in which w've both shot 'street' and and a comparison of the 'eras' in which we've shot 'street' and prevailing attitudes at those times, might somehow account for part of that difference.

Ever been in war with a camera as a civilian, lots of riots, civil disorder, been long periods in impovershed countries but not as a tourist, but as a resident documenting 'street life', or even driven and walked the streets of South Central Los Angeles as I do on a regular basis, where I often make a load of friends, even while many Angelenos swear it's the most dangerous place on earth and won't even drive anywhere near it. (It is NOT the most dangerous place on earth, unless one uses bad judgment, but it is more dangerous than Beverly Hills or Trousdale Estates).

My photos are different than many, in part because I go many different places in the world, and I'm wondering if you also go such places.

I have learned to do so in relative safety and I have tried to pass that on in posting on this forum, but doing so in such relative safety is a learning experience which not everyone can do, and for most it is an acquired skill, unless say, one is a former Navy Seal, or Green Beret.

Oh, yes, I also shoot many other places, some of which are extremely affluent, but pure 'street' means going where there are people, usually lots of them. and not just singling out the people one sees as the 'safest' or 'safer' people.

I shoot life - all of life that I can get near - and some of it is pretty gritty, but I have learned how to behave on the street, and with proper behavior, even the gritty areas can be relatively safe, if one is experienced.

I have tried to pass on how to behave safely as an important consideration for the true street photographer who is interested in photographing more than particular 'safe zones' - as such photos will end up with a skewed look at life, instead of the breadth of life.

That being said, I do not seek out just the 'grittiness of life'. I am quite able to shoot the middle class and the affluent, but so many times now the activities of the more affluent are shut off by security guards, locked buildings, key codes, gates sometimes, and other impediments, so that one literally needs an invitation (and maybe review by others of one's captures after the fact ) if one is to shoot life among the more affluent.

Go take out with professional looking cameras, for instance, in an American shopping mall, which is rife with security cameras, and start pointing those expensive lenses at shoppers and store displays, and see how long before some not very well educated mall security guard comes up to you, tries to detain you, and starts trying to treat you like a criminal -- just for starting to document a major portion of American life.

Americans shop primarily in malls outside of a few major cities -- New York City and downtown Chicago and almost universally malls forbid photography, vigorously.

Stores in America are lined with phalanxes of security cameras (some fake, but many being scrutinized 'live',) and the photographer who is noticed taking photos inside a mall and worse inside a store, will soon find himself under great scrutiny, and if caught in many stores taking a photo, will be asked to leave (and if unlucky and maybe stupid enough to give personnel a true name or identification, may end up barred for life from that chain -- possibly even in all its stores throughout America.)

I see part of the mission of the 'street photographer' (or at least my mission) to document everyday life, not only the gritty side of life, but everyday life of everyone -- often to capture that special, telling moment.

Cities with large populations on the street, like New York's Manhattan, now one of the safest cities in the United States, are extremely fertile places to shoot - in fact Manhattan's been 'sanitized, and is now a street shooter's paradise both because it's extemely safe and because it's never going to be 'malled off'.

But much of the rest of middle, urban and suburban America is malled off and locked off to the street shooter who is not an extremely surreptitious shooter willing to defy rules.

Fortunately the shopping mall is not universal in the world,, and in your part of the world is more the exception than the rule, which makes 'street' shooting in your part of the world much 'easier' I think, than in my home country.

And life is not just confined to shopping, though many Californians would disagree.

I travel to other countries, especially Ukraine, because in Ukraine, on account of its slowness in development, and the contrast of its slower developing rural portions with urban portions that have kept pace with Western development, one can document ALL parts of life as though one were in three different Centuries -- often within a few kilometers of each other. for that it's a 'street shooter's paradise for me.

Essentially, in Ukraine, as as a street shooter I have the luxury of 'turning back time' if I choose to go even a little ways outside a main city, but in a main city, I may have most of the luxuries of the 2st Century (together with extremely high cost, as Western living in Ukrine is very, very expensive).

The 'gritties areas' generally are the areas that are most approachable in major cities (outside of New York City and maybe Chicago), while much of the rest is 'off limits' to photographers (except the very aggressive paparazzi, who will go anywhere in their stalking).

In over 150 visits to Europe I know it to be quite the opposite for approachability than America (few malls, most shopping downtown, etc.) and envy your much easier choice of subjects, but can't affod to stay there because of high costs now that the Euro is so high.

But I wonder if that 'ease' hasn't also colored your judgment about how 'easy' it is to achieve 'safety' and if perhaps your advice best pertains to certain parts of America and much of the most civilized parts of Western Europe.

When I lived in Russia, fearful in-laws would not even allow me to take a camera on the street lest I be murdered, then took me to the local cemetery to show me the headstones (huge, tall, in black granite, with bas relief carvings of the young mafia chieftains and their girlfriends who had been assassinated, mostly in their '20s, just to drive home the point, about a decade ago that being murdered was a very real possibility if I walked the streets.

Their point was that if I took a camera out on 'the street' there, then, my life possibly was forfeit - and having witnesed a murder in front of their own high rise flat, they were deathly afraid of retaliation if seen as witnesses, which also applied to the residents of maybe five or six 11-story apartment buildings which overlooked the scene.

And no one called the police, who were not considered helpful in any case.

I took their advice and do not go wandering with my camera (what a shame, though).

I have told you of some of my experience, and now I'm curious about yours, since you are giving advice on how to achieve 'safety', how to avoid 'danger', and you seem to say that photographers 'invite' trouble by their own actions.

Where have you been in the world taking photographs?

And under what adverse circumtances?

Let's compare.

Maybe our viewpoints are relative to our experiences and history.

John (Crosley)

eric_arnold · August 25, 2009

Eric, it's been my experience with cats that they really don't like people when they're "liquored up". They will, however, be more than happy do do a "lid" of catnip with you. Whether or not you're muscular seems to have no effect on felines.

</blockquote>

this post made me think of the movie District 9, where slum-dwelling aliens go crazy for cat food.

eric_arnold · August 25, 2009

john, you just don't get it do you? blah blah blah i am so great i've been to europe three million times, i shot the Crimean war, i go into drug turfs wearing just a loincloth and an expensive camera...i post long-ass posts blathering on and repeating the same circular arguments over and over because i am so great.

here's an idea: just send ton a personal message on his email if you're that interested in his experience. but posting on a forum board the way you did reeks of self-serving hubris which detracts from any greatness you may, in fact, possess. just so you know.

akochanowski · August 25, 2009

Help, help, I can't breathe, someone sucked out all the oxygen!

Damon DAmato · August 25, 2009

John, people are laughing at you. Take a hint.

susarla · August 25, 2009

Stree Photography is tricky. You need to find a balance between being comfortable in invading others privacy without getting into trouble :). Here are few shots that i took in Boston cruising on the "Freedom Trail"

tonmestrom · August 25, 2009

Where have you been in the world taking photographs? And under what adverse circumtances? Let's compare.

</blockquote>

John, first of all I feel absolutely no need to prove my credentials. Secondly it's on record here, I've always been clear about where I shoot. Thirdly, and most importantly, this thread isn't about me nor is it about you but about someone asking advice. I've given some. No. I've never been shot at and I make damned sure that I don't get into a position where that might happen.

The worth of street photos isn't dependent on the amount of adverse conditions as photographic history clearly proves.

But you are giving people advice on the possibility and probability of 'trouble' and the possibilities and ways to avoid it.

</blockquote>

actually I didn't. I merely said that only a fool will go looking for it.

igor_smirnoff · August 25, 2009

>> Americans in that city are extremely rare, and only one had expensive cameras, and as such I was extraordinarily visible.

John, your imagination is truly amazing to me. In fact, your being "rare" almost quaranteed your safety. No serious criminal wants to escalate his case to a special detective unit which is what happens if a foreign embassy is to be involved.

Petty crime like street mugging is a different story. It happended to me in Panama City when I was completely sober and alert. I have had no problem in Russia, in any condition.

trevans · August 25, 2009

Haha "Is that tear gas?!" "No no, is cat food! They go crazy for the stuff!"

Brad_ · August 25, 2009

Sorry John, with all sincerity and not trying to be harsh or demanding.... Without the courtesy of a few paragraph breaks

here and there to help make your super-sized posts readable, I have chosen to not try and sort out what you've written.

william l. palminteri · August 25, 2009

<a href="../photodb/user?user_id=153336">Brad -</a> <a href="../member-status-icons"><img title="Subscriber" src="http://static.photo.net/v3graphics/member-status-icons/sub10.gif" alt="" /><img title="Frequent poster" src="http://static.photo.net/v3graphics/member-status-icons/3rolls.gif" alt="" /></a>, Aug 25, 2009; 11:39 a.m.

>>> I'm done here. This is pointless and off-topic.

Off-topic? Why? Seems squarely on-topic to me.

</blockquote>

Okay, let's say it's on-topic. Remember the Democratic National Convention in Chicago, 1968 ? The streets were a travesty, but I'm referring now to INSIDE the convention center, where Dan Rather, a CBS reporter at the time, got punched out and thrown to the ground. That was not a mugging in some dark alley, that was the DNC. My point, and John's, I'm sure, is that trouble can come out of nowhere, from the most unsuspicious of people. Okay, who's gonna step up and say something silly like "Hey, he asked for it", or "He shoulda seen it coming." Dan was jumped by fine upstanding people that we vote for, not some doped-up thugs.

Dan Rather was and still is a very savvy person, and his assault is a matter of record. He didn't see it coming, will you ?

I'vev posted a shot taken by me from INSIDE the pre-RNC convention (2004, Manhattan) protest parade the Sunday before the convention got under way. The parade drew well over a million people. You can bet that I had my street senses tuned up for this one!

Bill P.<div></div>

eric_arnold · August 25, 2009

I'vev posted a shot taken by me from INSIDE the pre-RNC convention protest parade the Sunday before the convention got under way. The parade drew well over a million people.

</blockquote>

just curious, were you well-known by those 1 million folks as "the American with the expensive camera"?

Brad_ · August 25, 2009

>>> Okay, let's say it's on-topic.

Jeeeez, of course it's on topic. How could me saying I go out and shoot for fun possibly be off-topic in this thread? I recommend all approach

SP that way. If you want to turn it into something much more serious full of machismo, well, that's your approach and business. I'm happy with the photos I get just f-ing around...

>>> Remember the Democratic National Convention in Chicago, 1968 ? The streets were a travesty, but I'm referring now

to INSIDE the convention center, where Dan Rather, a CBS reporter at the time, got punched out and thrown to the ground.

Let's not exaggerate. We're talking about shooting on the street using a modicum of common sense. Not trying to snag a

story for a news network. This is getting pretty surreal.

What's the frequency, Kenneth?

clive1 · August 25, 2009

Gang-infested neighbourhoods in Tokyo are also to be avoided!

william l. palminteri · August 25, 2009

<a href="../photodb/user?user_id=3670956">Eric Arnold</a> <a href="../member-status-icons"><img title="Frequent poster" src="http://static.photo.net/v3graphics/member-status-icons/3rolls.gif" alt="" /></a>, Aug 25, 2009; 01:53 p.m.

It's no good scaring people like Laura away from the streets with "war stories".

</blockquote>

there is a difference between combat photography and street photography in the basic sense.

</blockquote>

Eric, I'm not clear on what you mean by the "basic sense", but I made it clear how that line can become nonexistent in a hurry. It happened to Dan Rather, and to the thousands of kids in the streets that week in 1968.

Do I have to mention "Kent State" ?

Where was the line there ?

<a href="../photodb/user?user_id=3670956">Eric Arnold</a> <a href="../member-status-icons"><img title="Frequent poster" src="http://static.photo.net/v3graphics/member-status-icons/3rolls.gif" alt="" /></a>, Aug 25, 2009; 06:03 p.m.

I'vev posted a shot taken by me from INSIDE the pre-RNC convention protest parade the Sunday before the convention got under way. The parade drew well over a million people.

</blockquote>

just curious, were you well-known by those 1 million folks as "the American with the expensive camera"?

</blockquote>

No Eric, I'm not.

However, we had a guy in NYC that ran around with a video camera shooting everything in sight. He would then air the footage on Public Access TV. He developed a cult following here in the 'Apple', and I know that he had a huge following.

Bill P.

william l. palminteri · August 25, 2009

<a href="../photodb/user?user_id=2163426">Clive France</a> <a href="../member-status-icons"><img title="Subscriber" src="http://static.photo.net/v3graphics/member-status-icons/sub4.gif" alt="" /></a>, Aug 25, 2009; 06:17 p.m.

Gang-infested neighbourhoods in Tokyo are also to be avoided!

</blockquote>

Honto ni !

Bill P.

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