PayPal + UPS warning

derek_stanton2 · July 28, 2009

I hope this is a unique problem i'm experiencing, but somehow i doubt it.

So, this is the story:

1. A guy buys an item from me on Ebay. He doesn't respond with payment, though, for a week. Finally, he says he's ironed out his financial/time issues, and says he sent me the money via PayPal. I get no notification from PayPal, and my balance doesn't reflect any activity. I tell him. Next day, he DOES 'complete' the payment. Funds were from his bank account.

2. I receive the PayPal notification, with the line "okay to ship." So, i send the package via UPS. It was "delivered" yesterday.

3. Today,i get an email from PayPal, saying the buyer's bank has reversed the transaction, and that i now owe PayPal. There is no other explanation. I've called and spoken to agents and supervisors. No claim of non-receipt. No claim of an issue with the product, which was As New as possible.

4. PayPal says i am NOT protected in their Seller Protection policy because the package was delivered by UPS WITHOUT A SIGNATURE. So, i go back to UPS and ask why. They say it was the DRIVER'S DISCRETION to not get a signature, even though i deliberately did NOT check the delivery option to "Deliver without a signature." They say i should have checked off a fee-based option to "Get delivery confirmation." In the past i have not checked that option because it comes with a price, and i get the delivery time, date, and receiver's name when i check the "Send email notifications" option.

5. UPS' argument is that: NOT checking "deliver without signature" does NOT mean 'deliver WITH signature.' I'm not sure how that's logical. In my mind, NOT checking it is a pretty clear indication that i DO want a signature. At the least, it's an indication that i Don't want them to Not deliver without a signature, and isn't that the same thing?

6. Secondly, why would i go into an unwanted option (delivery confirmation) to find a hidden page that gives further signature options if i'm already getting confirmation of delivery with the email notifications? 7. Thirdly, because of the value of the package, when i set up the shipment online, the shipping site REQUIRES that i get a signature of the pickup driver in order to take the package. Somehow, though, that does not indicate to them that there should be a signature on the other end. If it's so valuable that they need a verification of pickup, why isn't the same true for delivery? They left it on a porch instead, and the recipient isn't saying a word. I'm out, so far, $1250.

[i'm posting this elsewhere, as well. It's a warning. PayPal can just reverse the payment. Even after you've sent the merchandise. UPS doesn't seem to be bothered that their site is misleading. They will refer you to the legal document and say it absolves them of risk, even while admitting that the Delivery Confirmation option and Email Notifications options are redundant, and that the former option doesn't say anything about a signature until you get to a page you don't think you need to access....]

rainer_t · July 28, 2009

Things like this were the reason I canceled my PayPal account. They offer no amount of protection to their users ... it's just another machinery to shovel money into e*ay.

SCL · July 28, 2009

Derek - sorry to hear about your unfortunate experience. Your first tip off should have been that they guy didn't pay for a couple of days. On items of value I require payment within 24 hours or I will cancel the winning bid and re auction the item. Exception is when the winner contacts me right away with a reasonable explanation of circumstances and we reach a mutual agreement (on a very short leash I might add). Second, is that I have always required the recipient's signature on items of value (it's my insurance, but they pay for it in the auction) to prevent just what happened to you. Lastly, although you don't mention it in your case, again for valued items, I look for experience and impeccable credentials of the buyer...no newbies, no bad stuff for at least 6 months, and at least a 98% rating on feedback of valued items (if I can find it in their history). The odds have worked in my favor in that I've only had five experiences go sour in as many years and over 450 transactions, and never lost a cent. Yes I reduce the potential population of bidders, but I sleep nights. The only advice I can give you on your immediate situation is to keep hounding the buyer, Paypal, Ebay and UPS until one of them caves. It is a PITA, but hopefully a lesson you'll never have to repeat. BTW my experience with Paypal on problems has been exceptionally good including several situations from overseas buyers.

tim_barker1 · July 28, 2009

I ran into a similar situation with USPS. I paid for insurance (which has a signature component). The day the camera was delivered, the buyer put in a dispute on the $600 payment.

I thought I was safe since I had used delivery confirmation and could produce a copy (from the post office) of the insurance document signed by the buyer upon delivery. I was wrong.

I had not read closely enough. In its fineprint, Paypal says it only counts a signature confirmation as valid if they can view it online. And unfortunately, the USPS insurance signature cannot be viewed online. After complaining to enough people at Paypal, they offered to split the disputed payment - so I "only" lost $300.

Since then, I always pay whatever extra fee there is for a signature confirmation. You have to protect yourself, because Paypal sure isn't going to do it for you.

derek_stanton2 · July 28, 2009

Thanks, Stephen.

I've also had pretty good luck with PayPal, on two or three transactions i've had to dispute. They've been responsive to me and always found in my favor.

The issue with UPS: Yes, i agree completely, that i should be shipping with a signature required. But, i thought i was doing that. UPS' logic/language is the issue, in my estimation. If i DON'T check off an option to let the driver deliver without a signature, i'm thinking that means i'm indicating that i DO want a signature. As well, because of the value, UPS insisted that i get a signature from the driver at pickup. Makes no sense that they would then take it and leave it 'anywhere' with no documentation. It also made no sense to me that the option they offer to request a signature is 'buried' under another Fee-based option. And, that option doesn't mention signatures. My point is: why would i look for the secondary web page that falls under an option category that i don't need? And, i didn't need "confirmation of delivery" because it was already being provided in the first shipping option - Email notifications - which includes time, date, location of deliver, as well as the name of the recipient. If i get all of that from the FREE email notifications, why would i check off a box to pay a fee for confirmation of delivery? The email notification IS a confirmation of delivery.

Thanks for your advice. I had not lost a cent in over 150 transactions as buyer or seller, until now.

I'm not sure what i could have done, though, before the conclusion of the auction. The guy did have 6 transactions, with 100% rating. I stated in my listing language that i reserved the right to cancel bids made by zero history bidders, but where do you draw the line? I thought 5+ should be a reasonable place to start. After all, everyone has to build a history from somewhere. The guy did email me with what i hoped/thought was a reasonable explanation for the delay in payment. But, i'm not a mindreader, and at that point, how much rope do you give a person? I was ready to cancel the deal and relist when he did come through with the money. It's really amazing that PayPal doesn't actually secure the funds. It's a horror story when they tell you you've got the money, you withdraw it to your bank, and then they say it's all being reversed.

lilly_w · July 28, 2009

In a couple instances I have found PayPal's business practices to be contemptible. Amongst the many PayPal staff I have spoken with, including management, they truly exuded an air of ignorance and illogicality. I suffered one extremely egregious act of fraud. Their proposed settlement, despite my proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that I had been wronged, was nothing short of spit-in-the-eye. (A State Attorney General intervened and found in my favor.) Nothing but disdain and the harshest of criticism for PayPal and their terrible staff.

oskar_ojala · July 28, 2009

It seems to happen in most of places these days that no one wants to take the responsibility and blame it on some other company. I can only advise you to read the contracts, keep demanding that this is sorted out and if possible have a lawyer involved (if just for being able to say that you've contacted a lawyer). Good luck with getting your money.

brucecahn · July 28, 2009

What a terrible experience. I have been selling on Ebay for years. I have never had a Paypal problem. In fact they became the most reliable payment method so I stopped taking credit cards directly. I do pay the extra charge for a signature on expensive items though. This kind of thing really makes you re-evaluate your business practices.

Matt Laur · July 28, 2009

It's worth mentioning that this could just as easily have happened if you had NOT used PayPal, and instead were a normal merchant taking a normal credit card through a typical merchant account. The customer who makes the payment can still call their bank, say, "I didn't get it," and the bank will charge back the merchant at the drop of a hat. It's up to the merchant to then prove that they did everything right, or the money (and the merchandise) is gone for keeps. This is NOT a PayPal issue.

frank_skomial · July 28, 2009

"an email from PayPal, saying the buyer's bank has reversed the transaction"

- you have coincidence of 3 crooks cooperating to get your money, 1 - the buyer. 2 - buyers bank, 3 - PayPal.

I think there is a legal time limit how long the bank can reverse transaction... but I guess all went very fast for you.

gt1 · July 28, 2009

UPS is just horrible. Use FedEx or USPS. The previous and current companies I worked for stopped using UPS due to so many f**kups on their part.

And I'm just about ready to stop using PayPal because of their absolutely horrible customer service along with Ebay's efforts to get everyone to use PayPal.

eric merrill · July 28, 2009

I would not use PayPal to sell a major item.

Here's what happened to one of my wife's friends.

Friend sold children's clothing (value of $15 or so) on ebay. Buyer wanted a partial refund. Claimed the clothes were soiled. Friend said no, send them back. Buyer sent them back, with return receipt. Friend picked up package at post office, and realized it didn't weigh enough to have anything in it. Opened it in front of a postal employee as a witness. Package contained a note saying, "Thanks for the free clothes."

Paypal reversed the charge as soon as the buyer proved the seller had picked up the empty package from the post office. Paypal told my wife's friend, that since the item was returned, they refunded the money. If the friend wanted to do anything else, she would need to file a police report and get her money back some way other than Paypal.

It was only $15.

In my opinoin, paypal is a convenient way to send money. It's a risky way to receive money.

Eric

JDMvW · July 28, 2009

Listen to Matt. It's easy to blame PayPal, but these are common problems with any kind of remote sales.

They say i should have checked off a fee-based option to "Get delivery confirmation." In the past i have not checked that option because it comes with a price, and i get the delivery time, date, and receiver's name when i check the "Send email notifications" option.

</blockquote>

How much did you save by not checking that option?

It's still a shame.

elliot1 · July 28, 2009

In defense of UPS and Paypal - I have conducted close to 1000 transactions on ebay with almost all of them being used with Paypal and UPS, and I have never had an issue.

Derek, if you had read the Paypal's and UPS's terms, this incident might have been prevented although I unsderstand your frustration. The world is a dangerous place with lots of scamers.

hawkman · July 28, 2009

Technically Paypal is not at fault because you cannot prove the package was delivered. UPS is at fault for having inconsistent/deceptive terms and conditions. I had a similar problem with UPS in 2006 and that was the end of my business with that company. No more delayed/lost/damaged packages. Sorry to hear about your trouble. Even when I buy merchandise online I pay extra and make sure it is being shipped with Fedex/USPS instead of standard UPS.

leicaglow · July 28, 2009

PayPal is the most wonderful company in the world. I've used them for probably 12 years. They can't be beat. Until they turn around a f*ck you. That happened to me when all of the sudden they kept putting arbitrary freezes and holds on transactions. They sat on several grand of my money for 45 days with absolutely no explaination. I also know I'm not the only ones they did this. Obviously they had cash flow problems. Apparently they have no concern about what kind of cashflow crunch that puts on the seller (these were half eBay and half business related), who've already paid for product.

"The world is a dangerous place with lots of scamers [sic]."

</blockquote>

Yes, too bad PayPal is now one of them.

ken_kartes · July 28, 2009

I have the buyer send a USPS money order. I cash the money order at the Post Office, and have cash in hand. I mail the package.

gt1 · July 28, 2009

That happened to me when all of the sudden they kept putting arbitrary freezes and holds on transactions.

</blockquote>

They did that to me, too! Not only did they freeze the transaction, a refund from Dell, but they froze the rest of the funds in my account. LAME! EVIL! company (I just discovered you can't use more than one exclamation mark on pn haahahaha).

jason_hall5 · July 28, 2009

Absolutely same thing happened to me. Issue is someone hijacked the "buyers" account. Most likely the real owner of the account found the money gone from his/her account and put in the claim of fraud. So he got his/her money back and the real scammer now has the item you shipped out. All the scammer needes to do is get the money into your account long enough for you to feel OK about it and ship it out. Most likely shipped to a store front or something like that so no one will have any idea about the package.

derek_stanton2 · July 28, 2009

They say i should have checked off a fee-based option to "Get delivery confirmation." In the past i have not checked that option because it comes with a price, and i get the delivery time, date, and receiver's name when i check the "Send email notifications" option.

</blockquote>

"How much did you save by not checking that option?

It's still a shame."

That, really, isn't the point. Obviously, had the site been clearer about what the options actually meant, i would gladly pay the small fee. The point is that the option above that one, "Email notifications" already provides a "confirmation of delivery." All of the delivery details (as well as any exceptions/issues along the way) are sent in emails at each relevant stage. It's REDUNDANT to also list an option for confirmation of delivery. If the shipping option ON THAT PAGE specifically said "recipient's signature" and "adult signature," it would all be clear. But, you have to choose an option that doesn't make sense in order to even REACH the pulldown menu that offers "adult signature" etc.

Having to choose an irrelevant service/redundant service in order to get to the language about a signature (which also contradicts the other "signature"-related option) is ridiculous and misleading.

mostly sports · July 28, 2009

I had a seller specifically request cheapest method of shipment, no insurance. I replied, OK, but risk of non-delivery is with you. Guess what? A claim of non-delivery, and a Pay-Pal freeze of my account. Now I have a simple policy of "insurance required." Like others here, I used Pay-Pal for years with no problems, but one bad customer really ruins the relationship.

Matt Laur · July 28, 2009

Having to choose an irrelevant service/redundant service in order to get to the language about a signature (which also contradicts the other "signature"-related option) is ridiculous and misleading. Which makes this PayPal's fault ... how? I've dealt with the sales and shipping of goods in one form or another for over 20 years. Variations on this problem have always occurred, and always come home to roost on the seller/shipper. The seller always bears the costs... of the loss, or of the fees that guard against it, or of the insurance that covers such losses after the fact. Whether they choose to overtly pass that along to their customer, or hide it within their prices, or simply absorb it - that's up to them. Ever wonder why the merchants who apply for accounts to take traditional credit card payments must show credit worthiness? Because of the countless ways in which money taken may be taken back when a customer (or a fraudster) take the minor effort to reverse a transaction. If you want to make it easy for people to pay you, you have to understand how easy it is for them to un-pay you. Wouldn't you want your bank to make it easy for you to reclaim money for an item you ordered which never showed up on your doorstep? Yes? No? You can't have a system that works one way for you and another for everyone else. Quick electronic transactions carry fees and risks for a reason. Regardless, now you know how one of the few major carriers handles this. They all do it more or less the same way. FedEx and the USPS just label the checkboxes differently, and use variations on the same fine print.

phyliss_crowe · July 28, 2009

You potentially made some pretty expensive mistakes. I’ve been on eBay and PayPal since 1998. Almost got burned once, but I fixed that seller but good. So have learned a few things.