Next step of Leica?

[Allen Herbert]

Leica 111F .Iford HP4 processed and scanned by Ilford.

 

Lens Summircron f2.<div></div>

[fredrik_matheson]

Does anybody have any data on Leica Camera AG's revenues from the different product families? <br />

 

 

<ul>

<li>Binoculars/spotting scopes/rangemasters

<li>Digital M, film M and M lenses

<li>R9 & R lenses

<li>Digilux, V-lux, C-lux and D-lux

<li>Accessories and à la carte modifications on the M-series

<li>licensing revenue for lens designs/badging of the Leica name on Matsushita-made cameras and camcorders

<li>other revenue streams, such as service, 6-bit coding, etc.

</ul>

 

<p>

 

Also, does anyone know roughly how many M8's and DMR's have been sold?

</p>

[photo_dark]

actually, this has been a pretty interesting thread... for the most part.

 

I just feel the urging need to be tongue and cheek sometimes :) I'll be honest, i like the people on this forum more than other forums i've frequented in the past. People are pretty intelligent here, which is refreshing.

 

On everything else, I would like to see what leica can really offer... honestly, I don't think we've seen even a portion of what they are actually capable of, if they could get their heads out of their own asses for a change. An R10 that actually challenges the 1D3 or D3 would be worth a look. From what i've seen, they haven't even come close yet.

[john_camp1]

I own an M8 and eight or nine Leica lenses, god help me, as well as a D3 and a D300 (and a D2x, F5, F4 and Kodak

Retina.) I can tell the difference in prints made from the D3 and M8 -- I can't argue that one is better than the other, but if I

ever make a fine piece of photo art, it'll most likely be with the M8. I don't know why -- it might be my attitude when using it,

for all I know -- but the prints seem to have a distinction to them. I know, I know, pass the joint, eh.

 

On another Leica forum, I pound on the M8 like it's a brass ashtray. Leica did some things with it that IMHO were profoundly

stupid, not ending with the whole magenta foul-up. The QC was not good, I don't care what anybody says. I bought one of

the first batch of M8s, it broke, sent it in to get fixed, which took eight weeks, then it broke again, and Leica gave me a new

one which has worked fine. *Many* people had this experience. When I say "many," I base that on the fact that a whole

bunch of us (dozens, anyway) spent weeks discussing the camera on the Rangefinder Forum before it was available, and

of those dozens of people, virtually all had problems. I can also say with confidence that the M8 charger looks like it was put

together by a third grade science class; parts of it are held in place with tape.

 

Leica needs to modernize this camera. It needs: 1. A better chip (the first one was okay for its time, but time has moved on.)

A good clean ISO 1600 would be as good as a clean 6400 with my Nikon, and that would make me very happy. 2. Some

environment proofing; 3) Better LCD function displays. Honest to god, the M8 has a little round LCD on top because, I think,

Leica thought it would resemble the wind knob. By doing that, they could get only two tiny pieces of information in the

display. Hey, Leica! It's an LCD, not a wind knob! Oh -- and backlight it, so you can see what it says when you're using the

Nocti. 4. Make the "set" button an ISO button. Delete by pushing the delete button twice -- Nikon does it that way, I don't

hear any screaming about accidentally deleted photos. 5. Better framelines. The current framelines suck. Why not

electronic zoom framelines that actually fit? Right now, they're not even a close estimate. 6. Get rid of the fall-off, drop-in-

the-creek bottom plate. If you want to keep that old look, make the plate slide, rather than detach, or put it on a spring with a

latch. 7. I didn't say fall-off, drop-in-the-snowbank bottom plate because you can't use the Leica when it's cold outside

because the battery gives up after a dozen or so shots. I live in Minnesota, I take four batteries, I keep them in my pocket

so they stay warm. Needs better batteries -- everybody else has them, why not Leica?

 

Dream camera: a semi-rain-and-dust proof M9 with D3-level ISO response, 14mp or so, zooming framelines, good

batteries, easy ISO switches. Much of this can already be found in cheaper cameras, or involves simple engineering and

software changes.

 

For those who haven't heard, white balance is no longer a guessing game. It's pretty good now.

 

JC

[doug herr]

Brad Evans wrote: "<I> You brought up AF *performance*, myths, etc.</i>"

<P>

I brought up AF performance in response to another poster's statement that Canons work as advertised straight out of the

box. Obviously not true, unless Canon has begun advertising that AF is wonky.

[marc_bergman1]

I wonder how many photographer at this years Olympics will be using the Canon 1D Mark III with it's "wonky" AF?

 

I wonder whether Rob Galbraith is going and which Canon with the "wonky" AF he will be using?

 

I think this years Olympics will be a true test of the latest camera equipment. We should hear reports from the photographers as to the good and the bad.

 

I like reading Ted Grant's experiences at the various Olympics he covered using Leica equipment. I wonder if any Leica photographers will be there. I think his son does sports photography.

[doug herr]

Marc - I was playing Devil's Advocate to illustrate the hypocrisy of saying Canons work as advertised straight out of the box while claiming

that the M8 is unreliable, defective, etc. Both the M8 and Mk III cameras have had their start-up issues and from what I can tell the

problems with both have been resolved.

[joshroot]

<i>"Okay,Leica are spending money on PN. Does that mean that a Leica users cannot give their opinion? Have you thought that opinion might be helpful?"</i>

<p>

Yes, Leica users can't give their opinion. That's why we allow negative threads like this to occur. Or, you know, every other negative thread about any camera company that has been posted on photo.net over the past decade.

 

<p>Nice logic.

<p>

I was making fun of you for complaining about people making non-constructive comments and telling them they need to get out more. That sort of post is, in and of itself, not constructive. Hence the pot calling the kettle black.

[fran__ois_p._weill]

Marc,

 

I can confirm the price concerns the 50mpx camera... Now is it an error of the shop webmaster I don't know...

 

FPW

[robert gordon]

Leica already partners with Panasonic to produce to Lumix. Not a bad camera but the video viewfinder is not conducive to street photography. The Vario lens is fine, but how about integrating the Leica M viewfinder and the current Tri-Elmar--making the camera manual focus?

[carbon_dragon]

"Marc - I was playing Devil's Advocate to illustrate the hypocrisy of saying Canons work as advertised straight out of

the box while claiming that the M8 is unreliable, defective, etc. "

 

Let's talk about my last two cars, the Mitsubishi Eclipse (2000) and my Toyota Prius (2007). The Eclipse had it's AC

go out twice and it's clutch go out twice in 7 years for a total cost of about $5000. My Prius had the rubber pedal

com off of the parking brake. Obviously then, since the prius isn't perfect, they must be equivalent? Umm... NO. The

M8 has had more than it's share of problems, some of which (the IR problem) were not actually solved,

just "patched." And then there's the casting on the bottom plate which just appeared in the forums.

 

The M8 has the problems and ideosynchrasies of a first attempt at digital and they would be tolerated in a lower

priced camera, but at $5500 people have just a little less tolerance, that's all. And when you do have problems, from

what I read in the forums, you don't exactly get stunning repair performance. So you have to apparently approach the

M8 the way the Brits sometimes approach Jaguars -- with love and never-ending tolerance for it's foibles. Me -- I want

a camera. My M2 works and so does my Canon 5D and the pictures I get from both don't dissapoint.

 

By all means love the M8 if you want to, but I want one without the problems and at a merely ridiculous price instead

of a stupendously ridiculous price. I'm not buying a Canon 1DsMkIII either.

[doug herr]

"<I>The Eclipse had it's AC go out twice and it's clutch go out twice in 7 years for a total cost of about $5000. My Prius had the rubber pedal com off of the parking brake. Obviously then, since the prius isn't perfect, they must be equivalent? </I>"

<P>

This boggles my mind. How do you reach any logical conclusion comparing one year of ownership with seven? If this is an example of your thinking process how do you expect anyone to respect your opinion of a camera you don't even use?

[marc_bergman1]

Douglas Herr said,

 

"If this is an example of your thinking process how do you expect anyone to respect your opinion of a camera you don't even use?"

 

Couldn't the same thing be said about you and the posts you have made on this thread?

 

I see a lot of heat, even anger, and you are only using those subjective evaluations that agree with your point of view. How about less demeaning comments about Mr. Kamber who is a long time M user, war correspondent, and Pulitzer Prize winner. I am sure you can comment on his user evaluations in a calmer manner.

 

As an engineer, why don't you point us to objective tests evaluating the M8's performance and explain to us how these tests relate to the performance one can expect?

[doug herr]

Marc, Mr. Kamber is not a deity. He's as fallible as any one of us is.

[Allen Herbert]

I was making fun of you for complaining about people making non-constructive comments and telling them they need

to get out more.

 

Actually,Josh,i never said that. I was just responding to someone else.

 

Anyway,if i thought you were only joshing i would have never gone into a tirade about free speach and button

pressing stuff.

 

Another fine mess you have got me into;)

[Allen Herbert]

Come on,Douglas. Mr Kamber is a photographer,

 

Let us join together and have a little think...

 

A little cheap cam

 

http://www.techchee.com/2008/01/23/olympus-new-durable-and-waterproof-cams-sw-1030-and-sw-850/

 

Now let us have a little think about a 5,000 dollar cam with an tradition.....,

 

You can't help thinking that someone is pulling your plonker.

[doug herr]

What flabergasts me is that otherwise intelligent people would buy into Mr. Kamber's report hook, line and sinker as

though being nominated for a peripherally-related award makes him a more credible camera reviewer. The only

explanation I can think of is that it's what they wanted to believe.

<P>

His report fails on several important principles of the <A

HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method">scientific method</A> to discerning the truth. Specifically, he

does not explain his test conditions accurately enough that anyone else can reproduce his results, and in fact a number

of his peers (people who own both the M8 and 5D) have produced image quality results which contradict his, and no M8

owner has reported being able to duplicate the ISO-changing problem. From the results he reports I would guess that he

is comparing in-camera jpg files using outdated firmware in the M8. His report simply fails the reproducability test.

<P>

A nomination or even three nominations for the Pulitzer Prize doesn't automatically grant him any extra credibility. One

Pulitzer Prize recipient I know is a terrible camera reviewer, failing to recognize that not everyone uses a camera exactly

the same way he does, has claimed on multiple occasions that his Olympus zoom flares less than a premium-priced prime

lens based on a single photo that may or may not have been made with the prime (no comparisons, no controlled tests),

not to mention he has repeatedly demonstrated personal, political and social biases, refusing to acknowledge his

prejudices even after many people called him on it. Last I saw he was making portraits that were deliberately focussed

on the subjects' ears instead of eyes and calling it 'art'.

[marc_bergman1]

"Marc, Mr. Kamber is not a deity. He's as fallible as any one of us is."

 

Doug,

 

Somehow I was expecting something better from you.

 

I will never make that same mistake again.

[Brad_]

Kamber's a respected prize-winning journalist, with many NYT stories filed from Iraq. I value his honest **in-depth** and frank assessment

based on real-world in the field use over any speculation here.

 

>>> One Pulitzer Prize recipient I know is a terrible camera reviewer, failing to recognize that not everyone uses a camera exactly the

same way he does, .... Last I saw he was making portraits that were deliberately focussed on the subjects' ears instead of eyes and

calling it 'art'.

 

So, that's being extended to Kamber now? Based on his Pulitzer Prize?

[marc_bergman1]

The other Pulitzer Prize winner is B. D. Colen.

<p>

From his personal web page.

<p>

<a href="http://www.bdcolenphoto.com/main.php">B. D. Colen's web page.</a>

<p>

From the Maine Media Workshops.

<p>

<a href="http://www.theworkshops.com/catalog/faculty/index.asp?SchoolID=20&FacultyID=

928">Maine Media Workshops.</a>

<p>

"B. D. Colen, who teaches documentary photography and writing at MIT and the

 

Harvard Extension School, began his photographic life covering the 1963 March

 

On Washington. For the first 23 years of his professional life, Colen was a

 

reporter and editor for The Washington Post and Newsday – where he shared a

 

Pulitzer Prize for reporting. He now specializes in commissioned documentary

 

photography, documenting the daily lives of families, and shooting for clients

 

including The New England Journal of Medicine, the Harvard Stem Cell Institute,

 

and a number of major corporations and medical facilities. One of his personal

 

projects was recently chosen for inclusion in the permanent collection of the

 

Boston Public Library, one of the leading photographic collections of its kind in

 

the U.S."

<p>

From the M.I.T. Faculty page.

<p>

<a href="http://www.mit.edu/~humanistic/faculty/colen.shtml">M.I.T. Faculty</a>

<p>

From his Amazon.com Profile.

<p>

<a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/pdp/profile/A36C8RS4C5XS8Y">Amazon.com Profile.</a>

<p>

[doug herr]

"<I>So, that's being extended to Kamber now? Based on his Pulitzer Prize?</i>"

<P>

Not at all. It's an example of where a prestigious award doesn't necessarily mean the recipient is an expert in related fields.

BTW Mr. Kamber was <U>nominated</u> for the Pulitzer.

<P>

Marc, I wasn't going to name names but everything I wrote is in the LUG archives at leica-users.org

[marc_bergman1]

Michael Kamber's web page.

<p>

<a href="http://www.kamberphoto.com/">Michael Kamber's web page</a>

<p>

From Polaris Imaging.

<p>

<a href="http://www.polarisimages.com/Portfolios/Photographers/Michael_Kamber/">Images.</a<p>

<p>

"Michael Kamber was born in Brunswick, Maine in 1963. He has worked as a New

 

York City-based freelance photographer and journalist since the late 1980’s. In

 

the United States, Kamber has covered immigration, homelessness, labor issues

 

and the environment. He has made numerous trips to Mexico to document the

 

mass migration of laborers to the United States. He has also worked extensively

 

in the Caribbean, covering politics, conflict and social issues in Puerto Rico, the

 

Dominican Republic and Haiti. In Pakistan and Afghanistan he has focused on the

 

plight of long-term Afghan refugees and the future of a post-Taliban Afghanistan.

 

Kamber spent 2003 photographing for the New York Times in West Africa and

 

the Middle East, covering conflicts in the Ivory Coast, Congo, Liberia and Iraq.

<p>

 

His work has appeared in dozens of magazines and newspapers in the U.S. and

 

Europe and is featured in two recent collections of journalism; The Best American

 

Nonrequired Reading 2002 (Houghton Mifflin) and Brooklyn: A State of Mind.

 

<p>

 

Kamber is a former Revson Fellow at Columbia University.

 

<p>

He is the winner of the Mike Berger Award, the Missouri School of Journalism’s Lifestyle Award, the

 

Society of Professional Journalists Deadline Club Award and is a member of the

 

New York Times team that won an Overseas Press Club Citation of Excellence

 

for coverage of Iraq in 2003. He has been nominated for the Pulitzer Prize in both

 

photography and reporting."

<p>

<p>

<p>

An article by Michael Kamber in The Digital Journalist.

<p>

<a href="http://www.digitaljournalist.org/issue0707/a-walk-in-the-sun.html">Death of a Soldier.</a>

<p>

[vic_.]

<i>"... Kamber is a former Revson Fellow at Columbia University. ..."</i>

<p>The Unabomber went to Harvard, as did George Bush (Yale

too).

[doug herr]

One thing I learned from virtually all of my professors is that a fancy academic title doesn't excuse anyone's work from scrutiny. They're

all human and all potentially fallible. For example:

<P>

The bacteriology professor whose "correct" exam answer was contradicted by the study materials and all other references, yet he

refused to change the "correct" answer or remove the question from the exam.

<P>

The mammalogy professor who taught that an animals running power is in the front legs despite vector analysis, muscle mass and

skeletal strength to the contrary.

<P>

The computer sciences professor who believed that the Holocaust is the greatest hoax of the 20th century (those who are handy with

Google can figure out where I went to school).

[joshroot]

Allen, you need to learn to use italics when quoting someone. Makes it a lot easier to see that you are replying to someone else and not making the statement yourself. Would have saved some confusion.