Interested in trying 120 film...need some advice

[silverscape]

Okay, this might turn out to be another one of my vauge questions and a camera

shopping list. But here goes!

 

I've told my mom about how I've gotten into classic photography and how I've

started developing my own film and prints. So she asked me to enlarge

pictures from some old negatives from when she was growing up, because she was

just curious what was on them. I'm still amazed she trusted me with

them...but anyway. The pictures turned out great. I think the film is 120,

but I'm not sure. I bought the enlarger on eBay and it came with two negative

carriers, one for 35mm and another larger square size. The negative fit on

the larger size perfectly. I actually really liked working with those

negatives. It enlarged to a nice sharp, square image that was much easier to

align on the paper. Also, it seemed like the negatives are much more

forgiving of dust or spots than 35mm...I noticed dust and a few spots on the

negative (and of course I wasn't going to try to clean a 50 year old

negative), but it did NOT show up in the pictures, or at least it didn't

really affect the picture and you had to look really carefully to notice

anything. I've had some trouble with water stains and spots on my 35mm

negatives, and the pictures will show almost any defects. Are 120 negatives a

little more forgiving? It seemed like they are. Maybe because it's a larger

image?

 

So my other questions are, is 120 film any harder to work with or develop? Is

there anything I would need to know? Also, can someone recommend a camera

that uses 120 film, for a beginner? I'd want something completely manual. I

still like 35mm, but I'm just curious about 120 and wanted to try it.

[mskovacs]

120 is much more forgiving to work with in the darkroom. In general that goes for larger film formats.

 

If you are OK with full manual cameras and handheld meters, there is nothing magic about using a medium format camera. They are a little more demanding only in that there is less depth of field available to work with compared to 35mm.

 

I guess the first place to start is which medium format? There are a number of negative sizes all shot on 120 - 6x4.5, 6x6, 6x7, 6x9. I prefer 6x6 myself as I like the square on its own as a composition, and can crop verticals/horizontals in camera.

 

In 6x6 there are a number of folding cameras - many are scale "guess" focus; the rangefinders cost more. The king IMO is the TLR like the Rolleiflex. Prices on these have really come down and they are true professional quality tools that are every bit a match for Leica in build quality.

 

Or you can move into an SLR. Hasselblad being one of the nicer 6x6 SLRs and priced to match. There are others that have really come down in price, e.g. the Bronica system. Just don't expect to use a MF SLR in the same way as a 35mm - they are quite different beasts.

[btmuir]

Chris,

I wouldn't say 120 is anymore difficult to work with once you get the hang of loading the

camera, reels etc but there fewer emulsion choices out there these day.

 

I find that shooting a larger camera is not as fast when shooting but this is really just

technique and I have shot fast moving events on the street with larger cameras up to 4x5.

 

You will love the 120 format and will save 35mm for really fast moving stuff or when you

don't think you'll need the extra enlarging capability 120 affords.

 

As far as a camera recommendation, I'll leave that to some of the experts on the older

folders because these camera are cheap and plentiful and may be just the thing to get

your feet wet.

 

I'm using a 6x7 Koni-Omega rangefinder and a Hasselblad which shoots the "Square" you

mentioned. The square neg is called 6x6 (in cm) or 2 1/4x 2 1/4 (in inches).

 

Have fun and there is no turning back now.

[jakenorcross]

I absolutely *love* 120... it's bigger, it's more forgiving, and that opens the door to using a lot of classic cameras, especially if you reroll it for 620- it's also the film of choice for toy cameras too.

 

If you're going to develop it yourself, you need a tank that will accommodate that size; most plastic reels these days open to 120... when in the film changing closet, you don't need scissors- just tear the tape off the backing paper.

[bueh]

In my humble opinion, the best and most affordable 120 <abbr title="medium format">MF</abbr> roll film camera is a Mamiya RB67. Get later body (Pro or Pro SD) with a bunch of older lenses (Sekor C or non-C) and you will have a great camera kit for excellent results. You will need a hand-held light meter, because the camera has no internal metering and is fully manual.

<p>

If you prefer a smaller camera and hand-held automatic shooting, I'd suggest a Mamiya M645 Super with the <abbr title="auto exposure">AE</abbr> prism and the motor grip. It handles a lot like a big 35mm <abbr title="single-lens reflex camera">SLR</abbr> in Av aperture priority mode, but can also be used fully manual. Though its lenses are named Sekor-C's, too, they are different from the ones for the RB67. But they too are very affordable nowadays and high-quality.

[golden]

120 is great, my first "real" MF camera was a yashicamat (I dont count the holga) i bought the yashicamat off the bay for 58.00 it was a very nice camera with a great lens, I went from it to other mf cameras, RB, Crown, c330, all which I really enjoy shooting, I miss my yashicamat sometimes but its now resting in peace somewhere in the bottom of the toccoa river.

[cliffmanley]

I'll bet if your Mom had some old 120 square negs, there is an old camera lurking around in the closet somewhere !

[michael_dimarzio]

Slightly OT, but if you get a camera without a meter, look at the Gossen Digisix meter, small and pretty handy.

[chuck_foreman1]

Hi Chris,

 

You stopped looking back a while ago. If you think you like the square format, then there are lots of choices. MY opinion, having watched you move through stuff here on the forum is to go for

Yashica a-D/Mat. These with all generally manual with the odd (poor) light meter on-board. Some of the guys are recommending folders and they're also pretty cool and similar to the Argus, the TLR Yashica lets you compose and focus on ground glass a bit like that SRT.

You'Re gonna have some fun either way.

 

Viel Spaß

[k5083]

When I did what you are doing, my first purchase was an RB67 setup. I feel this is probably the best bang for buck in used MF right now. The only drawback for me was that it isn't a 6x9. 6x9 is the same proportions as 35mm so I'm comfortable composing for it, and it suits my usual subject matter so I really use the extra area. To quell this urge I bought a couple of 6x9 folders, a Voigtlander and a Zeiss. Magnificent cameras, amazingly portable, and an all-manual starter one with good coated glass can be well under US$200. The one drawback is no interchangeable lenses. "Should" I have bought the folders before the RB67? I don't think so, they both have a place in my bag, and the RB67 can create eye-watering detail.

 

Bottom line. On a starter's budget, if swapping lenses is important to you, go RB67 or maybe Bronica. If not, and especially if go-anywhere is important, get a Rollei or Yashica TLR if you like 6x6 or a Zeiss, Voigtlander, or Agfa folder if you like rectangles.

[Rob_the_waste]

There is an infinite variety of cameras that use 120 film. A lot of the older Kodaks use 620 which is the same film on a tighter spool. I use two medium format cameras. The first is a Yashica A, supposedly the cheapest of the Yashicas. I picked it up for $40.00, and it's worth every penny and more. There is no complicated automatic frame counter on it to bugger up. Just a simple red window with a slider that closes it off. My other medium format camera is an old Zeiss Ikon Ikonta (520/2). I got it for a song because it didn't look nice on E-Bay. It's a great user though. The Yashica shoots 6x6, and the Zeiss shoots 6x9. You have a 6x6 carrier, and I don't know what luck you'll have finding a 6x9. The shop I take my films to make the proofs in 4x5 only and use a 6x7 mask, so some of the negative is reduntant. Try a Yashica. I've had some fantastic vacation shots with it from last year.

[don_e]

"Also, can someone recommend a camera that uses 120 film, for a beginner? I'd want something completely manual."

 

Besides a Holga? If you want to avoid auctions and thrift shops (and the miserable condition of most inexpensive folders and tlrs therein), buy the Agfa Isolette I w/ 4.5 Agnar Jurgen has listed on his site (www.certo6.com) for 85 dollars. Otherwise, good hunting 8-)

[steve_bellayr]

Read up on Yashica Mats & Rolleiflexs & Rolleicords. You can get a period meter for very little. The GE PR-1 should do it. They run about $10 with shipping. The older Yashicas with meters tend to be iffy anyway while the Rolleiflexs with meters are still costly. Hassys come without meters. I don't know how old you are but when the Beatles came to America (first time) the teaching standard was a meterless Yashica and the sunny 16 rule.

[k5083]

Don's advice is good except that Jurgen hasn't been taking orders for several weeks or until further notice; I think the rise in popularity of the old folders and his own reputation have overwhelmed him a bit. He still puts about 1 item per day on ebay, that's the only way to buy from him currently and he usually has a couple of folders on offer at a time, but the bidding usually ends well above his web site list price.

[silverscape]

I'm looking at a Yashica A on eBay. Rob, how does the focus work on those cameras...is it fixed focus, guess focus, rangefinder, or some kind of through-the-lens focusing? They look like interesting cameras, but I know nothing about them.

 

How are Hoga cameras anyway? From what I've read, they seem like cheap cameras that aren't so great. (Is it true they have a plastic lens?!) But I've never actually seen one.

 

Steve, the Beetles were before my time. I was born in 1977 :)

I want a manual camera because all the 35mm cameras I've collected and used so far are completely manual. I'm having a lot more fun and learning a lot more doing everything myself. Light meters...I don't need no stinkin' meters! Once I got the hang of it, I've used Sunny 16 for all my pictures. Some are better than others (I still tend to overexpose once in a while). But usually the times where I judged the light myself actually turned out better than the pictures where I used a light meter! The only thing I'm not confident about is a "guess " focus. I need a rangefinder at least. Although if the camera didn't have a rangefinder, I guess I could just get one separately.

[rustys pics]

The Yashica A is a good TLR. THey focus like an slr, except one lens is for taking pics and the one you look through is for focus. This can lead to some framing errors when shooting up close. DOn't overlook the less expensive but very capable Rolleicord TLR cameras.

 

I'll cast a vote for an old Zeiss Nettar folder. Sure, you'll have to guess focus but a few evenings practice with a yard stick or tape measure will pay off. Just be sure to get one marked in feet, rather than meters if you're in the U.S.

I've gotten folders in superb condition for $11!! That's a minimal investment for medium format.

[Rob_the_waste]

Unless you're shooting up close wide open, the focus isn't always that critical. As you'll notice on the focus ring, the farther away you are from the subject, the more condensed the numbers on the focus ring get. The depth of field compensates larger distances more easily than closer distances. A lot of shots are taken between 6 and 20 feet. If you can visualize three paces and a bit, there's your ten feet. You've learned to eyeball the sunny 16, you can learn to eyeball distances within fifteen feet too. With a bit of practice, you won't need to use a rangefinder for a crutch. Some of my cameras are scale focus (Diax L-1, Zeiss Ikonta, Zeiss Contina). Moderate use of depth of field will compensate minor misjudgements.

[rogerwb]

Yashica A's are alright, but the bottom of the Yahica line. A "C" or

"D" is affordable and offers a few more shutter speeds and better optics. Yashicamats are usually a little overpriced.

 

Don't overlook the Ciroflexes and Graflex 22's. They are rugged, easily repairable and cheap. Their only drawback is the lack of auto exposure counter, relying on the red window system.

 

Your post seems to indicate that you have a 6x6 square negative carrier so the recommendations for 6x7 cameras puzzles me.

[patrick j dempsey]

I think you will find the Holga cameras to be a little overpriced... they are fun for what they are, but unless you really want to deal with all the drawlbacks, I suggest ignoring them and going for a REAL camera.

 

As far as cleaning those negatives, you should be able to clean 50 year old negatives with water just like any other negative. If we were talking 100 year old negatives, I would say leave them be!

 

Theres TONS of cameras to choose from! If you want cheap and compact and all manual and sharp... try out a Zeiss Ikon Nettar... there are a few models that can be had for cheaper than a Holga and they slip into your pocket. Whatever camera you get, be sure there is some kind of guarantee on the shutter.

[david_m]

The big disadvantage of 120 is you get less frames per roll and if you like to scan negatives rather than prints, 120 negative scanners are much more expensive than 35mm. If those aren't considerations, then 120 is fine, much better quality than 35mm. If you have water marks on your film, you need to use a wetting agent.

[rustys pics]

If you have a plastic tank, the reel can be adjusted to load 120 film. However you will

eventually want a bigger tank to do two reels of 120. I have a nice stanless steel tank which

holds two 120 reels and a 35mm. I often carry a small automatic 35mm like the Olympus

Stylus Epic when shooting medium format. Gives me a little extra coverage if I need to get

wide. I always load the same film in both cameras to process together.

[jdrose]

I think 120 is a bit more forgiving. The extra real estate gives you a more pleasant tonality.

 

I recommend a Zeiss Ikonta C 6x9 folder; relatively inexpensive and a great big frame. If you want to push 120 to the max then invest a bit more and get a Fuji 690.

[silverscape]

Yikes...the market seems pretty tight and the competition is kinda tough for 120 cameras on eBay. There are a LOT more bids on those cameras than 35mm. I've had times where I was the only bidder on a 35mm camera. But I'm definitely not going to have that much luck this time. Luckily, there is a camera shop near where I live and they have a ton of antique cameras for sale. So maybe I'll take another look there and see what they have. I think the collectors are starting to pick over eBay and things aren't selling as cheap as they used to.

[cliffmanley]

The cameras are still pretty cheap, our dollar is just worth less (worthless).

[ashton_lee3]

Be aware that your new enlarger may not be able to handle the 120 formats larger than 6x6 (square). Most can go as high as 6x7, but not all.

 

As far as a first camera, I'd get the cleanest Rolleiflex you can afford. If they are too expensive then seek out a Minolta Autocord. Only as the last resort get the lower quality Yashica. Part of the magic of 120 shooting is learning how to use a groundglass... and getting the benefits of truely seeing your composition. The folders wont give you that.

 

Over the years I've used every sort of camera and format there is... but my best pictures were taken on Rolleiflexes and Hasselblads.