Come on, people! If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the oven!

[rachelfoster]

John, you make an important point. If not for those kind souls willing to comment on my photos I would not have made the progress I've made.

 

As to people leaving in frustration, your point is also well-taken. But it still pisses me off to lose good people because they critique and were chastised because the photographer really meant "Praise me."

[david brown]

I would love to get more crits from people, I have had some really nice ones and then get a run of nothing for ages. I deleted 5 - 6 images the other day out of 8 I posted due to no response at all, so I figured they were not worthy of comment so why post them they are obviously not up to standard.

[Norma Desmond]

Rachel,

 

We often ask the photographer to be thick-skinned when getting a critique.

 

Those who critique should be as well. Someone gets offended by your critique? If you

weren't offensive, it's not your problem.

 

I generally get gracious reactions. There is usually something positive I start with and that

helps a lot.

 

I adjust my critiquing to the level I think someone is at. If I think you're an accomplished

photographer, I won't talk about cropping or technical details unless it's absolutely

glaring. I'll discuss intent, emotion, how something hits me, how I see it fitting in with the

rest of your work, etc. If someone seems to be a beginner or newly learning a style, I

might offer more specific advice. If I notice someone making progress, I may nudge

instead of pushing hard.

 

I think effective critiquing can take as much effort as making good photos. I'm so lucky to

have a mentor who has not only helped me with my photography, but has shown me by

example how to help someone else learn without dominating their personal vision and

expression but without hesitating to push hard and expect a lot. That means critiquing

from the standpoint of what you think the photographer wants, not what YOU want. A

good critique may be as much about what you don't say as what you do. It takes finesse

and some objectivity.

 

I try to avoid criticizing taste. Example: I generally don't like super saturation. Others do.

Rather than say, "this is oversaturated," I may make a more neutral comment like "this has

the look of a fairy tale or storybook." If the photographer wanted that feel, she will be

satisfied. But if she wanted to capture more realism, my comment might make an impact.

It's not always my place to judge. Sometimes, just being observant is enough. I have to

keep practicing that one. I have lapsed on occasion!

 

Fly-by critiques that are beneficial are hard to come by. With most, you are getting a

smattering of public opinion. How much credence you give to the public's opinion will

depend on what you're after photographically.

[stp]

My problem with ratings, despite how popular they may be, is that they offer so little value

to the photographer, particularly if the ratings are low. What this is implicitly saying is

that the primary reason for posting a photograph on PN is to show other people what

we've done; ratings allow the viewer to give a very quick thumbs up, down, or sideways to

a photograph, and the rating relays one message: a viewer likes/dislikes a photograph.

They say nothing to the photographer other than a majority of viewers like/dislike the

photograph.

 

If the primary reason for posting a photograph on PN is to improve one's photography, or

to learn new styles or techniques, or to help other viewers understand good and bad

elements of a photograph so that they might learn from a posted photograph, then the

only avenue is through written critiques using more words than "great photo" or "lousy

photo."

 

My bias, of course, is for the latter. Even when one of my photographs is enthusiastically

received by viewers, their comments as to why they like the photo or the elements that

they think are key to the image may be things that I hadn't even noticed about my own

photograph. I really have no interest in either showing off or getting hammered by

meaningless numbers; I'd much rather learn something be reading what folks have to say

about my photographs and the photographs of others.

[hjoseph7]

As long as it's not personal I don't know why they should get offended. However tact does play a part.

[colin carron]

A critique should say what the critiquer thinks is good about a shot as well as what could be improved. That way the one receiving the critique doesn't feel they have had their teeth kicked in by heavy handed comments. In addition the critiquer is helped to keep doing the positives.

 

Another aspect of crititquing is tone. It is often difficult in a text-only critique to make the tone friendly. Too often it can come over as negative and dismissive. If we were standing next to the person making the critique the corrective aspects could be softened by non-verbals such as a smile. The text-only critiquer has to find a way to replace that part of communication preferably without resorting to :-).

 

I have heard it expressed that such things should not be necessary and people receiving crtitiques should be thicker skinned. Well, maybe they should - but they are not.

[stevespencer]

I haven't rated any photos here since I was verbally attacked, insulted, personally berated and stalked by email. I then suffered revenge comments on my photos of a very derogative nature from the guy all for giving a rating that was less than the self-proclaimed expert thought he deserved. I was one mouse-click from taking action against the guy for the harassing emails when I guess he got enough and stopped. I didn't want to waste any more of my life dealing with they guy so I let it go at that. That was the one of (or maybe <i>the</i>) last photo I ever rated here. Not because I'm afraid of such things as happened, I've just got better things to do with my time than deal with such negative stuff.

<br><br>

Since then I offer very few critiques and I submit my photos for critique only. I offer even fewer critiques since some of the more recent explosively insulting attacks I've gotten for my efforts (there is a difference between a technical disagreement and a personal attack - I've read some spirited and intelligent technical disagreements that became quite animated and often not without a large element of humor, <i>and from which I've learned a great deal</i>).

 

As an example of a personal attack, I'll offer the instance in which one photographer told me and another person who offered respectful and detailed critiques of an image, "why don't you guys try again and next time try not to be so amateurish," and there was more, ending with, "don't quit your day jobs." There is not one iota of value in such retorts. They have nothing to do with the image discussed. They are personal in nature and deliberately insulting. What that basically says is, "I put this photo here so you could all rave about what a master I am. I don't really want a critique."

<br><br>

When critiquing, I have always been respectful of the effort and personal involvement a person has in the images they submit. I try to find something good and to point out what might be done differently, if anything. Sometimes I do just offer praise if a particular image really moves me or amazes me with its excellence.

<br><br>

While I rarely offer critique these days, I also do not receive much at all. There are basically a handful of people here to whom I offer advice and who offer it to me. We are not mate-raters, we offer constructive criticism to help each other grow. I am just reluctant to offer much to anyone else because I never know how badly I'm going to be attacked on a personal level for my efforts. I don't need it. It is a non-beneficial experience.

<br><br>

Maybe I'm just too thin skinned these days, but I have never thought it was kosher to attack someone on a personal level for a technical disagreement. If you disagree with a critique, explain why you think you were right, or why you prefer the way you did it and then thank the critic for his/her efforts. <br><br>

That brings me to another thing that chafes me: offering a critique only to have it utterly ignored. Take for example a photo that has two comments and I add mine to the critiques only to have the photographer answer each of the other two and ignore mine. I sometimes delete those. It's sort of like joining a conversation only to have the person you spoke to address someone over your shoulder and ignore you. Rude.

<br><br>

That's been my experience.

<br><br>

Steve

<br><br>

..oh, and one more thing that annoys me: When everyone is offering loads of sycophantic praise for a shot and nothing else, then some brave soul offers something of real technical or artistic value as a <i>critique</i> only to be attacked by the other critiquers for not joining the mindless parade of "Wow!" "Great Shot!" etc. <br><br>

Josh is right. It's all about behavior.

[mrstubbs]

Writing a good critique is easily as difficult as making a good exposure.

 

It should come as no surprise then, that the the quality of critique here is no better, on average, than the the average ratings of the images.

 

We cannot "demand" the help of peers be any more animated than any emotion our images enliven.

[Brian]

<P>I read these remarks about over-zealous critiques with a mild sense of disbelief. My 'problem' with the critique system here is that almost nobody critiques my images. I put up the occasional image, like the lone fisherman casting his line, hoping for a bite, but nothing. The last one I posted 2 weeks ago has 75 views and zero comments.</P> <P>I'm not especially aggrieved about this because I know that nobody is obliged to take any notice of my posts. But I'm surprised at the problems some people get, of apparently too much criticism.</P>

[jgalyon]

"My problem with ratings, despite how popular they may be, is that they offer so little value to the photographer, particularly if the ratings are low. What this is implicitly saying is that the primary reason for posting a photograph on PN is to show other people what we've done; ratings allow the viewer to give a very quick thumbs up, down, or sideways to a photograph, and the rating relays one message: a viewer likes/dislikes a photograph. They say nothing to the photographer other than a majority of viewers like/dislike the photograph".

 

Stephen -

Knowing if people like or dislike one's photographs seems like a perfectly valid reason for choosing to receive ratings. I think you're assuming far too much when you offered your thoughts on what the primary reason is that people (who allow their work to be rated) post their photographs on PN. Even if you're correct...so what? You don't see ratings as being of value. That's fine. But why would you want to deprive others of having their work rated? In my case, knowing if people like or dislike my pictures assists me in determining what the general public might want to purchase. And I have no hesitation in saying that I enjoy receiving good ratings on a photograph...as I believe most people do. I don't use ratings to affirm my self-worth, I don't see it as a contest, and I understand fully that ratings won't make me a better photographer...but neither do I find anything detrimental about receiving ratings and I don't understand why some people have such an issue with people who for whatever reason...enjoy ratings!

 

If, as you said... (to paraphrase) the primary reason people post their photographs is for the learning experience offered by receiving comments and critiques from their peers...then I agree. Substantive comments/critiques offer more than numbers. But to imply that people receive ratings just to "show off", once again assumes too much and sounds rather arrogant. Perhaps that isn't your intent...but that's how the comment comes off.

 

I think it was Collin who pointed out that when offering comments/critiques via text only...much can be misinterpreted, misunderstood, misconstrued...lots of things can go amiss! So that you know... while my reply to your comment is pretty straight forward, I'm not angry...and it is not my intention to sound disrespectful toward you... I just don't agree with you!

 

One last thing. If you want more critiques...allow your photographs to be rated! People tend to comment more if allowed to rate as well. I won't get into why this might be...but my experience is that it consistently works this way!

[jgalyon]

Brian - As for the lack of critique/comments given to your photographs...consider this. You're a "prolific poster"...but you're not a prolific commenter. There's a direct correlation between giving and receiving. If you devote most of your time to the forums and very little of it to commenting on the work of your peers... I'm not sure why you'd be surprised when people don't comment on your photographs?! I'd bet good money that if you took the time to comment on twenty photographs tonight...that within 24 hours you'd immediately see some comments come your way!

[gordonjb]

People complain when they don't get ratings, people complain when they do get ratings, people complain when they don't get critiques, people complain when they do get critiques. Anyone see a pattern here?

 

I am left with the feeling people give far too much credence to the opinions of others. Educate yourself about photography,study other great artists work, get out there with your camera and take photos. Work on developing a critical eye of your own. Then you won't have to rely on the opinions of a bunch of strangers to validate your efforts.

 

As for Rachel's original point. I think it is unfortunate if some members have been run off because of poor responses to their critiques, but I am not at all surprised and I do not think there is any magic wand Josh can wave to transform the internet into a place of peace and harmony. A thick skin is the only reasonable response. I have yet to receive a single bad response to one of my critiques and I've written 1,928 critiques to date. I regularly point out what I see as weaknesses as well as strengths in my critiques and I back up my opinions with what I consider valid reasons if I am asked further questions. To me the important issue is the spirit in which the critique is given. If you mean well and have any communication skills, odds are in favour of your critique being well taken. If it turns out otherwise, that is the unfortunate risk of offering up your opinions to strangers in an anonymous environment - shrug it off and move on.

 

 

I have only had negative reaction to my CC forum postings , including one person sending foul mouthed threats in e-mails. Sure it can be annoying and even discouraging but surprising ? not really. So if this forum post inspires anyone to send me hate mail save yourself the trouble, I have a very thick skin:)

[szrimaging]

Having come out of art school you learn how to take critiques. But I know many people who can't take that blow of "negative". I personally gave up on trying to do critiques here because there are just too many; with very little feedback to go between each of them.

 

No that said, I would think there would be some way to segment the critique forums. A section for fluffy little puppies and a section for people ready to deal with the true criticisms of a real critique. Perhaps the more serious critique also doesn't participate in the ratings.

[gordonjb]

Zach;

 

That has been suggested before and I feel it is a great idea. A two tier system may be helpful. There could be a 'group hug' 'gratuitous praise' forum, a 'throw some numbers at me' forum and a critique forum. If nothing else , it would provide an option to direct the people who get stressed about honest critique towards. I gather from what I read here, that many people using the critique forum do not grasp the concept of critique and are not in fact looking for a critique at all. Giving them there own corner of PN to hang out, might help. Most likely though, it will end up being something else to complain about.

[aginbyte]

Zach, you're right, we must have segmented communities here, but those have to be self-

segmenting. There is an entire community of "Momma's Little Geniuses" out there who

pontificate and boast and preen and parade, but you look at their portfolios and they

clearly have no life experience whatsoever. They post "provocative" but empty questions

in the Forums. And on the other hand, you have dedicated flower shooters for whom

every beautiful flower is a challenge and they love talking to others; they cluster. The

same with people who shoot desert landscapes well, or food, or nudes. Eventually people

will cluster and find those whose critiques are valuable and for whom their own words are

valuable. It can take time. For some people, who understand this immediately, they

integrate quickly (one fine European photographer, for example, within two months he is

an integral part of a wide community of very fine photographers). There are serious

photographers of all kinds and interests, and there are many many amateurs who are

perfectly content to take pictures of Fluffy, a nice sunset at the beach, and the kids playing

soccer. PN appeals to them all, because like any complex system, PN allows "attraction"

behavior. My own portfolio is proof of that ... I specialize in a very small range of subject

matter, fairly arcane. When I first posted, someone told me that they liked my pictures,

indeed had shots of their own like them, but didn't post because not enough people are

interested in them. What I have found is that in 18 months there is an entire worldwide

community that communicates regularly with me about these shots, and that I have met

and planned to meet several of them, talk to more on the phone, and correspond with

many more. I have received much help on my research, and people have volunteered to

meet me in their areas and guide me to the sites that I have planned to shoot. I have

improved my black and white processing with their help, learned how critical small detail

is, and gained an appreciation for different points of view on my own work, and on the

work of others. All of this for $25 a year. There has been an occasional rudeness, some

misunderstandings (all of these people from different countries communicating in

languages other than their own), but not a single instance of malice. To me, PN is one

very successful internet community.

[don_e]

"I am left with the feeling people give far too much credence to the opinions of others."

 

You mean like this?

 

"...so I figured they were not worthy of comment so why post them they are obviously not up to standard."

 

I'm guessing such sentiments are limited to Youth. It may be a habit they pick up in school, or perhaps it is something in the water...

[sknowles]

Rachel, interesting point, and in part why I don't post photos for critique. To me, while

some criticism is good, which for the life of me I don't understand why people can't learn

to express it positively, much criticism is mere opinion. And while that opinion is based on

many years of experience, much knowledge and understanding, and often a number of

publications, it's still opinion. And that is something I often see gets lost in translation. It's

not what would make a photo or image better, but this is how I would make it versus what

you have produced. It's not better, just different. There is no right or wrong, it's what the

photographer captured and produced, and others would do both differently. Otherwise, it

only become mimicry, meaning if you did this, then it would look like I produced it.

 

In the end, when I like an photo or image, sometimes I'll express it, but if I don't, I just

walk on, because it's just my opinion, nothing more. I'm a follower of every grandmother's

advice, "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all." And there's always a way

to express a negative as a positive, something some photographer haven't or don't want

to learn.

[cooltpmd]

I think the concept is pretty good. I like to hear what is good and bad (or simply needs some work).

 

In the current system, the implementation of the ratings is dictating the outcome. I will give an example:

 

Say I am posting a simple photo for critique of my B&W technique, etc... I don't have a naked supermodel, I didn't dangle over a tall building, and I didn't photoshop the #$&^ out of the picture. I am almost destined not to get any feedback at all, certainly less than 10 ratings and less than 2 comments.

 

What I am saying is that, unless you already have a fully captivating photo, or a naked woman, which garner automatic 7's, gets more hits, and gets more comments ... it's difficult to get much feedback.

[daved1]

I'm a newbie here. I've read through many a post on the rating/critique issue. If you upload an image you open yourself up for (probably) disappointment. Obviously, you feel the shot has 'merits' and when someone doesn't agree, it hurts.

If the true reason you posted an image is to learn, then take the overall ratings (tossing the high and the low) and determine if the majority agree with your perspective or not. The lowest rating tells you no more than the highest rating does. The lowest rating says 'you practically did nothing right' and the highest states 'you practically did nothing wrong. More than likely the truth falls somewhere between these two points.

Take critiques for what they are. How the photo could be even better, if someone feels it could. Then move on and deal with it all over again on the next photo you post.

[rachelfoster]

I started this thread as a frustrated rant. The responses have been so thoughtful and thought provoking that I'm printing the discussion for further study.

 

While there are ... um .... sorry but I can't think of a better word --- idiots --- here, there is a good number of solid, talented, kind, helpful, intelligent people. This thread is evidence of that.

 

I have learned a tremendous amount from my interactions on PN. Several of my "mentors" have commented here. Fred Goldsmith in particular has been a gift to me and my photography. Throw Gordon in to that mix, add a little Charles Webster, and...and...and....well, my mentors know who they are and they know how much I appreciate them.

 

Thank you all for this discussion.

[jzq]

I've only skimmed this discussion because there is so much to read here, but I wanted to weigh in. I'm pretty new to photography and I like BOTH the ratings and the critiques. I haven't had anyone tell me that something of mine looks like "sh*t." If I did, I'd probably ignore that person and be annoyed. I just don't think that's a way to engage with someone about their work. That being said, if someone wanted to say, "I think you should consider your saturation levels. Also, you've got too many contradictory lines in your composition." I'd be grateful. I don't mind people making me aware of my flaws. I just want them to do it in a sensitive, compassionate manner.<br>

<br>

Maybe this comes from being a teacher. As an English teacher serving low-income, low performing, marginalized students; I could veritably say that 85% of the essays I read are "shi*t." Or I could say, "I can tell that you're leaning in the right direction... just work on X, Y, and Z."<br>

<br>

I have posted a few photos in the critique forum, and I'm grateful for the subdued critiques I've received... but it's true, sometimes I would prefer a tactful, more detailed critique than ratings alone can give. <br>

<br>

PS: As for this... <br>

<br>

<i>"'Simple and plain praises (that I see in more than 95% cases of photo comments in PN) are nauseatic.' Well, first off, I believe the word's 'nauseated'"</i><br>

<br>

The proper way to write this (NO OFFENSE TO ANYONE INTENDED!) is:<br>

<br>

Simple and plain praises (that I see in more than 95% of cases in photo comments on PN) are nauseatING.

[rachelfoster]

Judith! You are a teacher indeed! I had a good laugh over that one. I also teach and the term papers can be painful to read. But the critique of papers and of photos really aren't that different, are they? Point out what's good, point out what needs improvement, and if one can, explain how that improvement can be accomplished.

[johan_de_groote]

Isn't the problem with ratings that you get a mean value? You do not know if you hit the target you aimed for. Maybe you ant to get negatives from a crtain group. But this gets erased when more votes get in.

[pnital]

Rachel, a good thread! interesting points of view.Being a member here for some years I learned a lot doing it two ways. observing other photgraphers work and trying to understand,and be open to real ones given to me. I think that the most important factor in doing it is being constructive! I stopped rating photos and prefer writing what I think, I'm glad when a real comment/ critique is given to me. I do agree with Gordon, that there is a need to learn outside as well.

 

I agree with Zach , learning for 4 years in art school you learn to be open to critique if you want to progress.

 

I think that there are many photrographers that want to develope, and cunstructive critique is the right way, and not less important is a dialogue ! answerung questions, asking questions get explanations and advice. I like threads that a dialogue is developing

 

Not less important is politness in the way words and wording is used.

[geertje]

Very VERY interesting topic! And one that pops up often on the net. In diff forms and words. I am an absolute new bee myself. Not only to the net but to photography in general. And I can still recall the excitement I felt receiving the first 7 and the disappointment about the first 3. Ratings are addictive to a newbee at first.. But now I am at a point I would like to know about the why behind a rating. And sometimes I am so lucky to get a good solid comment or tip.And each of them helped me to grow a little bit more, or changed my perspective into one I feel a more comfortable with. So far, I consider myself lucky. I too posted photo?s for comments only, and I too received zero input. But I also realise there are so many posted each day. I just keep trying. Meanwhile I spend hours on here. Reading, looking at the work of other photographers and I am having a wonderful time! And I agree with Dave De Joode about tossing the high and the low. Actually that?s kind of what I am doing right now. My average in aesthetics tells me there is still much to learn for me about the quality of my photographs. My average in originality tells me not everyone sees the world around me like I do. The first one is my biggest challenge right now, the second one, to me, right now is a little less important. For at this point I shoot the photographs for ME, not for the rest of the world. No matter how many times people saw pictures of ,say, tulips, to me it is my first. And I too rate pictures, and I too leave a comment now and then. But I can only rate and comment with my gut feeling. In this stage I am just ?general audience? rather than a well trained jury. I admit so far I never left a comment saying I did not like it. I only said something when I liked it and why. So I am one of the ?praise sinners ? (grins). But you do have a point here Rachel . Next time if I don?t like a picture I will leave a comment saying why. Anyway, to make an already long story a little bit longer. Thank you all, for rating. For sharing your work , for participating in forums and for commenting now and then. It really helps me a lot!

 

Oh, and the stalking stories are a horror! I am very sorry to hear people who mean well have to put up with that. So sad that we are given a whole new world with the invention of internet and some mess it up AGAIN.