jgalyon Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 i knew it was only a matter of time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
les Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 It is not going to get better - it will only get worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgalyon Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 perhaps we should all move to San Fran and the areas where Brad lives...because there are no problems there. well, maybe just one. Fred Goldsmith related an incident with unjust police treatment...and that occurred in San Francisco... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike dixon Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 The only time police have interfered with my photography in the States was when I was shooting on the railroad tracks near downtown Nashville. And I was, in fact, trespassing on railroad property, so the cop who stopped me was well within his rights. He wasn't rude or aggressive about it, either--he simply explained the situation and told me I needed to move on. I've had "civilians" ask me about what I was doing on some occasions, but nothing threatening. If I'm going to take photos of people in public, I expect to deal with people occasionally. The only other times I've been stopped from photographing were here in Korea: once near an embassy, and once when a group of MPs were concerned about what I was doing. Ironically, I've never been stopped from photographing when traveling in communist countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig_gillette Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 Close to fascism? That's good. Always room for artists in the propaganda organs. Tune up your resumes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgalyon Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 intimidating law abiding citizens by utilizing fear tactics...yes that's fascist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_weber1 Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 I live in the USA. Last night I found a dark neighborhood near my home to photograph the lunar eclipse. It was an expensive neighborhood and the closest house was about 200 yards away. I pulled my car way off the road onto the shoulder, while I didn't get hassled by the cops, I was interrupted by some of the rich folks driving by. I suspect they thought my digital camera with 400mm lens on a tripod was just a disguise for some no good activitiy I was up to. I refused to answer any of their questions and I just ignored them. They got mad, flashed their lights and left. I was surprised none of them called the cops on me. USA cops and many of their citizenry have become very fearful, rude, and confrontational in these last few years. That's why I vacation in the wilds of Canada. Not only do I not see very many people, but when I do meet Canadians or Canadian police (or Mounties) they are very nice and courteous - much like Americans used to be in the 50's and 60's! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad_ Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 >>> USA cops and many of their citizenry have become very fearful, rude, and confrontational in these last few years Hasn't been my experience at all - I find people generally friendly everywhere. How and from where do you draw such sweeping and concrete conclusions? www.citysnaps.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_h.1 Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 "I almost inadvertently caused a traffic accident simply because I had a big, white Canon lens on my camera and the people driving by assumed that, because I was walking along the side of the road with such a big camera and lens, there simply HAD to be a bear!" I actually had this happen to me. A freind and I were shooting a grove of interesting trees on groomed land in a built up area by the side of the road on Cape Cod. No one in their right mind would think there would be any bears to be even close to there. While we didn't have white lenses, we did have tripods. This was enough for a guy in a van to pull over over and approach us saying he saw our camera equipment and assumed we were taking a picture of a bear. I glanced over at and saw what looked like his family happlessly sitting there in the van waiting for him to get back in so they could leave. You don't need law enforcement or security to harass you. Anyone will do it. I was taking some shots of a winding road with full fall foliage in a post cardish type scene that anyone could see and figure out what I was doing. There were houses on the road but not nearby. Some guy driving by backed up and abruptly demanded to know what I was taking pictures of. I probably should not have done it but I told him I was taking pictures of the scene in front of the camera. There was an ackward silence as he sat in his pickup pondering my statement while I went ahead with my activities. He drove off saying nothing about twenty seconds later. Usually when someone makes agressive challenges like this I avoid the temtation to be curt because they would probably call the police making irrational allegations about my activities. A freindly quick chit chat about what I am up to usually clears everything up although it is annoying to have to explain the obvious. As to Beeau's mushroom marauders (who sound as though they were ON mushrooms), I might have given in to the temptation of stomping on the mushrooms if there were no ecological harm in doing so. Sometimes you have to put your foot down (terrible pun intended) when faced with these intrusions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgalyon Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 Dave, I'm not yet ready to give up on my country...but my wife and I have given serious thoughts of moving to Canada, specifically Nova Scotia. We've vactioned there and loved everything about it. The terrain is vast and varied, the weather is a bit colder than what we'e used to here in Tennessee...but not bitterly cold like their neighbor across the Bay of Fundy...Maine, and the relatively few who reside there are generally warm and hospitable. Life is slower there, the crime rate is incredibly low...and on, and on. With all the talk among U.S. presidential candidates concerning change...one thing I feel assured of. There will be change. There always has been, always will be. The thing that concerns me is what type of change will it be? More of the negative changes that has occurred in the past 40 years or so? I'll just suffice to say that I don't like where the U.S. is headed on a variety of issues. I'll let it rest at that...as I'm becoming conscious of the fact that we've veered into a bit of politics...and a bit away from photography. Although photography is very meaningful to me...it's relatively low on my list of concerns in life. My concern isn't just that my freedom to take photographs might be taken...it's about "what's next?" ... free speech in general? my right to vote in free and fair elections? nuff said... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgalyon Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 Brad, he draws his conclusions from his own experience and from the many accounts such as are listed in this thread. i have no doubt that you're being truthful when you say that you and your friends haven't experienced what many of us obviously apparently have... this isn't a "who is right" or "wrong" issue. it's about what we've experienced as individuals...nothing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgalyon Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 p.s. - Brad, I allowed myself to get involved with a pissing match with you over this once...I won't allow it this time. I didn't understand then, and don't understand now why you insist that your experience is the only valid experience when it comes to this topic...but if you want to argue...maybe one of the good gentlemen in the room would like to discuss why there experience somehow doesn't "count" in your mind. I have nothing more to offer on the subject. Have a good evening! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike dixon Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 <i>I suspect they thought my digital camera with 400mm lens on a tripod was just a disguise for some no good activitiy I was up to. I refused to answer any of their questions and I just ignored them. </i><P> Or maybe they thought you were having car trouble? Why not simply tell them that you're taking photos of the lunar eclipse?<P> I don't see anything wrong with people stopping to ask someone in their neighborhood what's going on. My neighbors have kept on eye on things when I'm not around (even helping me to recover a stolen motorcycle), and I've tried to do the same for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_weber1 Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 Brad, since 1999 I've worked for a large company with about 170 locations in just about every major metropolitan area in North American (including 17 locations in Oh Canada). In 2005 I spent over 9 months of the year in Canada. For the last 9 years I have been a true road warrior, virtually living in a different major metro area each week. I think I have had a quite broad exposure to a very diverse sampling of Americans from throughout the country. Before that, I was in the military and got to know a few thousand others from most of the 50 states. TOP THAT my friend! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad_ Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 >>> I don't see anything wrong with people stopping to ask someone in their neighborhood what's going on Yep, if someone was in my neighborhood at night with a cam and large lens, and it wasn't clear what was going on, I'd ask. Or if I was doing something similar that's what I'd expect others would do to me. But then I'm the type that loves talking to and engaging people... www.citysnaps.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgalyon Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 Mike, Good point. A local photographer in my area bought an abandoned bank building and converted it into a photography studio. I had heard that he had gone out of business and that the building was no longer being used. I dropped by, found this to be true and took a phone number from the front door, with the intent of contacting the photographer to inquire about possibly renting or buying the building. I noticed that an older couple in a SUV were leaving their home across the street...and that they sat there staring my way for some time. Not wanting to alarm them that I might be "up to no good", I walked over to them...smiled, said hello, and told them what my business was in being there. They didn't say much, but went on their way. Within five minutes, I had driven down the street and parked, had my camera on a tripod, at the side of the road...taking a picture of an old hardware store...when I saw their SUV headed my way. Pulling up beside me, the older gentleman asked me in an agitated, angry tone... just what are you up to? I always try to be respectful of people, especially older people...but it really cut me the wrong way, since it was obvious that there was no indication I was doing nothing more than taking pictures and I had already explained why I had legitimate business in their neighborhood. But I held my tongue...dug out a business card from my wallet and handed it to him. While he was looking at it I made a point to strike up a friendly conversation with his wife. By this time I could see that he wasn't so tense and agitated and he explained that there was a lot of drug use/sales going on in the neighborhood and that he was just concerned about seeing another stranger hanging around. By the time it was over...we were all smiling and talking - the gentleman was telling me the history of the neighborhood, pointed me to landmarks he thought I might have interest in photographing, and so on. As you said, it's good for neighbors to keep an eye on things for one another. Too many times...people choose not to "become involved". For instance...my next door neighbor who saw another neighbor literally beating her young grandson with her fists...and chose not to report it. Especially since I was an actively working social worker at the time...guess who got to repor this one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_weber1 Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 Mike, they were not there to offer assistance because of car trouble. I was hunkered down over my camera, giant lens and tripod in front of my car. The lens was clearly pointed to a giant moon that was half red and half white that they could clearly see. Believe me, there were stopping to haze and hassle me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgalyon Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 Brad, since I see you've visited again...just wanted to say that although we've had some "heated" debate in the past, it certainly isn't personal to me...hope it isn't with you either. In fact, I had you on my "interesting persons" list long before our disagreements. I strongly admire your work and would love to just talk street photography some time...if you're willing... best regards, john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike dixon Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 Dave, again, why not just tell them what you were doing? It would have taken two seconds to point out the giant, half-red, half-white moon, and say, "I'm taking pictures of the lunar eclipse." It's entirely possible they didn't even notice it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad_ Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 >>> TOP THAT my friend! Don't know if I can top it, but I used to work for a $13B US semiconductor company (and before that a small company that was acquired by them) and traveled extensively in the US. At no time did I find people unfriendly or living in fear. In fact, I found people in post 9/11 Manhattan very friendly. But then I'm pretty outgoing/friendly and love engaging people, so I suspect that's part of the equation. Well, OK, I do remember a 20 year old behind a hotdog stand in the corridors of O'Hare that wasn't very chipper... www.citysnaps.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lex_jenkins Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 Ordinary people haven't changed all that much. "Officials" have changed. They've been instructed to be more alert and conditioned to be suspicious of ordinary folks. We are being regarded less as citizens and more as "civilians," i.e., non-combatants, expendables and in the way. Because constant vigilance becomes tiresome and fosters paranoia, there is a tendency to create conflict where none exists in order to justify their positions. I sympathize with folks who are responsible for public safety. But I don't have to sympathize with the increasing tendency to overreact and escalate minor conflicts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgalyon Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 Damn well spoken Lex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_elder1 Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 The mere fact that this topic keeps coming up, posted by different photographers is a strong indication that photographers, maybe just the ones asking for trouble, or deserve it, or who don't immediatately kiss ass, are having troub;e with the police over taking pictures. Remember the skateboarding kid who was so severly harrassed by the cop a couple weeks ago on you tube. Well that is an example of a bad police officer, and bad officers are not limited to harrassing skateborders. Cops are just like everyone else, there are good ones and bad ones. Some photographers , like skateboarders, run into bad ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_weber1 Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 "Because constant vigilance becomes tiresome and fosters paranoia" Case in point - the TSA at airports. Recently a TSA woman at my local airport had a man arrested because his response to one of her questions was to joke that he had a "World War II artilery piece" in his back pocket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david brown Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 I think Micheal Moore should read this and make a movie, its right up his alley. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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