justin_reece Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 What might be the finest grained b+w film I can get - an then develop regular d-76? I'm looking for something I can find at most reasonable photo supply stores - not a special order film. I just need to prove a point to someone, by comparing the grain structure of several different films, like a 100, 400, 800... etc. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david_dorcich1 Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 Pan F+ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justin_reece Posted February 15, 2008 Author Share Posted February 15, 2008 Now that I think about it, let's say developer + film combo. I'll go in for some new developer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Gammill Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 Depending on where you live, you might find some Efke 25 or Rollei Pan 25. I've gotten finer grain with the Rollei than with Pan F+. Some places might not stock the Pan F+ either so call before driving there. You would be more likely to find Ilford Delta 100 or Kodak TMAX 100 in stock are they are both fine grained compared to say TRI-X or Ilford HP5+. If you can find a store that carries Fuji black & white film then a comparison between Fuji Acros 100 and Fuji Neopan 1600 would be a good one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank.schifano Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 No, actually you were correct the first time. Developers make a difference in apparent grain, but the film's natural grain structure is the overriding factor here. I'm not convinced that PanF+ is the answer either. I've used plenty of PanF+ and TMax 100, and compared them side by side with a grain magnifier. In absolute terms of grain, TMax 100 has it beat by a little bit. To be fair, I usually develop both films in dilute XTOL or D-76. But the differences are irrelevant. The two films are very different animals. PanF+ has a much steeper contrast curve than TMX, and punchier mid tone values. On the other hand, TMax 100 will hold a lot more shadow detail at the expense of a somewhat flatter overall look. Fuji Acros is another very fine grained film with it's own unique characteristics, though one with which I have no experience. Aren't you glad you asked? Aren't you glad to have the choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_wilson1 Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 Hard to beat T-Max, especially if you carefully control the temps and fine tune the chemicals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justin_reece Posted February 15, 2008 Author Share Posted February 15, 2008 I am very glad that I have the choice to get different films. I think what I'm going to do is pick up one roll of tmax, pan f, hp5, and maybe delta 3200. Shoot the same subject, develop in the same developer, and then scan on the Imacon X5. It's 35mm. Basically all I'm trying to do here is go up against someone who made a generalized statement that all b+w films have "grain" bigger than (a certain something I refuse to talk about). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walter_degroot Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 is this where I say panatomic-x where are you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark u Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 Can anyone spare him a couple of feet of Techpan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelly_flanigan1 Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 Microfile developed for pictoral usage; in the Nixon versus Kennedy era. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 Keep in mind to that many other factors influence how the grain in a particular film appears. Developing temp and agitation, the exposure given the film and so on. Far to many to really even be certain. Even different batch numbers (as in the case of Efke I've noticed) of a film can have significant differences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolf_rainer_schmalfuss Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 Hi Justin, Get ROLLEI ATP 1.1 film from FREESTYLE, exposed it with ISO 100 and get it processed through Dr5 ! Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larrydressler Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 I got some 35mm microfilm I shoot at ISO 12-25 and develop in Diafine it is totaly grain less.<div></div> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aplumpton Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 Apparently Fotokemika in Kosovo is making the famous fine-grained Adox films under the Efke banner. Freestyle may have them; Silverprint in the UK does. Otherwise, PanF+. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User_502260 Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 For a general purpose film I would go with Pan F+. I develop ACROS in Fuji Microfine and rate it at 100. This combination gives me grain which is at least as fine as TMX in any developer I have tried. Microfine is not sold in the US. You can get it at the unicircuits.com website (Japan). Technical Pan and ImageLink HQ and FS films have much finer grain than Pan F+ or TMX or ACROS but they have very limited exposure lattitude and are not suitable for all kinds of lighting. If you have a specific size photo in mind, like 8X10 or 11X14, you will get better overall quality and grain with medium format equipment and a medium speed film like Plus-X or FP4+ than you will with 35mm film and slower or more fine grained film. Pan F+ and TMX and ACROS are all available in 120 size so you can get even finer grain in an enlargement if fine grain alone is what you are looking for. For standard size rectangular prints you won't see a difference with 6X45 or 6X6 formats until you get over 11X14. With a 6X7 negative your print has to be a lot larger to see a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photojim Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 Remember when you do your comparison that scanning creates artifacts in black and white film, because of the nature of the emulsion. The way to compare d* to black and white is to make prints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stwrtertbsratbs5 Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 If you want finer grain, you should consider shooting either medium or large format. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_earussi1 Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 Tech Pan was the finest grained film ever made, but it's now discontinued. But Rollei supposedly has a replacement for it. http://www.freestylephoto.biz/sc_prod.php?cat_id=&pid=1000002791 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodeo_joe1 Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 If you want a "normal" film, as opposed to a high-contrast copy film that you have to carefully and specially process, then Tmax100 or Delta 100 will give you the finest grain (hard call between the two). The developer has to be right too. IME full-strength D-76 and Xtol give the finest grain with these films, with Xtol maybe winning by a short nose. PanF+ does give very fine grain, but its grain pattern seems more visible in the final print to me. It's also a more contrasty film than Tmax100, and a whole stop slower. To tame the contrast you have to overexpose slightly and cut development, which makes it more like 2 stops slower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodeo_joe1 Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 "Tech Pan was the finest grained film ever made..." No it wasn't. The microelectronics industry uses things called Lippmann Plates. They're also used for making Holograms, and are absolutely grainless for all practical purposes. The drawback? The emulsion is exceedingly slow and high-contrast, usually only blue/UV sensitive, has no anti-halation backing and only available coated on a glass substrate. It is, however, possible to get a graded tone image on these plates, probably with better gradation than was ever achievable with Tech-pan. Fine-grain positive release cine film, with a speed of around 2 ISO, also has a finer grain than Tech-pan. However it too suffers from having no anti-halation layer and being only blue sensitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pc_b Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 Hi Justin, Arthur Plumpton is right: ADOX CMS 20 in its own developer (same as SPUR ???20 in its SPUR developer). Nothing else commercially available today compares. Cheers, Pete. P.S.: Better get drum scans if you want to see CMS20 grain (and not just artefacts of Minolta/Nikon/Canon/whatever). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sg_adams Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 Just stick with something you are used to like D-76. Tmax films work well for general purposes in it. For fine grain usestock solution and 1:1 with a little more grain but higher accutance. I've got Tmax 400 about even grainwise with FP-4 125 both in 1:1 solution. I am currently processing through film tests for Zone work with Tmax films and have Tmx 100 rated at 50, and Tmy 400 rated at 200 from my preliminary film speed tests. I never had any luck with Tmax 100 and because it is a narrow latitude B&W film. I see from my test that rating it at 50 will provide much better results. It is not as forgiving film as its faster cousin TMY, which I've almost always been able to print from. I haven't worked out a set final normal development times precisely yet, but have a good starting point rated at a twenty-five percent decrease from the recomended box development for TMX, and twenty percent less for TMY for normal with thirty as N-1. While I am not fully satisfied yet, my film speed ratings agree with many I have read here. I found Delta 100 to provide better results when used at box speed compared to Tmax 100, and Acros inbetween with blown out highlights. I had better luck with Acros at 64, but don't like the thin base inmy rollholders. But Acros's thin clear base does scan well. So there is much to compare between these films. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fotohuis RoVo Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 Some nice info of comparision between ATP-V1.1 Tech Pan (Rollei) and the CMS20 / SPUR Orthopan UR: http://www.apug.org/forums/forum37/47183-atp-new-techpan.html Best regards, Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay_paul Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 Adox has a 20iso. (Not 25iso but 20iso) Freestylephoto.biz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fotohuis RoVo Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 In fact an iso 10 orthochromatic micro film from Gevaert, Belgium. But with some tricks and a special developer ("made by SPUR") you can push it (and sell it) to iso 20. http://www.spur-photo.com/dat_ort_ure.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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