Process Question

[dave_f2]

I'm just getting started and I have a bag of Kodak hardening fixer for film and

paper. The bag makes 1 gallon. Since you can reuse fixer, I plan to make one

gallon, split them between two half gallon bottles and use one for film and one

for paper. Is this good practice? Also, should I be mixing my chemicals:

developer, stop bath and fixer in a darkroom with safelight or no light or is

room light okay too?

 

Thanks,

 

Dave

[nbg90455]

Welcome to the world of wet darkrooms!

 

I wouldn't use a hardening fixer for printing, since it makes washing the prints unnecessarily difficult. Also, the fixer for printing is pretty much "one-shot" -- i.e. once it's been in the printing tray for a while, you don't want to reuse it.

 

Having said that, it is a great and economical fixer for film.

 

Also, you can mix all these chemicals in broad daylight...

 

Enjoy!

[abica]

Can someone elaborate a bit on this print washing/hardening fixer thing? I use the kodak stuff too, perhaps I should be using something different?

 

Remember to store those chemicals away from light, heat, etc. in brown bottles. Don't shake to mix, and follow temp and mixing directions.

 

In response to your question, Dave, a few I dug up from the neat google site search tool:

 

Ole Tjugen, May 10, 2003; 03:32 p.m.

 

I do it the simple way:

 

1: Did I mix it today? If so, it's OK. If I've used it a lot, I ditch it at the end of the day.

 

2: If not, did I mix it yesterday? If used a lot, ditch it. If not, use it a little more, then ditch it.

 

Fixer is cheap, film is priceless. Paper less so, but I hate it when they fog.

 

If at all in doubt, ditch it.

 

Michael Erlichphoto, May 09, 2003; 06:28 p.m.

 

Edwal makes a "Hypo-Chek" solution I use to test paper fixer. To determine if film fixer is exhausted, first check the time it take fresh fix to clear film. Normal fixing time is twice to three times the clearing time. Then use the fix until the clearing time is twice as long. Then it's time to dispose of it.

 

Ellis Venerphoto, May 09, 2003; 07:26 p.m.

 

When I had a darkroom what i used to test for fixer exhaustion was a small piece of exposed but undeveloped film, the snipped off leader of a roll of 35mm film for instance. As I recall: if the film strip completely cleared with in two minutes the fixer was good to go

[rich_ullsmith1]

Wait a minute.

 

First off, having never used the powdered Kodak stuff, I don't know if the hardener comes in a second packet. If it does, dispose of it. If it doesn't, I would go to a fixer that does not have a hardener.

 

Second, when diluting for use, only dilute to film strength. Even for paper. Yes, keep working solutions for film and paper separate.

 

Third, I recommend two-bath fixes for both film and paper. If a film leader clears in a minute in fresh fixer, then I go two minutes fix 1, 1 minute fix 2. Test fix 1 at the end of the session; when clearing time doubles (in this case, to two minutes) dump fix one, replace with fix two, remix fresh fix 2. Honestly, dumping this stuff everyday or every session, "one shot", is horribly wasteful.

 

For papers, same two bath method. The general times for fixing papers is 30s RC and a full minute for fiber. Constant agitation, at film dilution. To save time, I pull RC prints at 15s and fiber at 30 and transfer to a holding tray. The second fix can done en mass for RC prints, and at least two at a time for fiber (back to back).

This additionally aids in washing, as the print has not been in a fixer tray for more than thirty seconds at a time.

 

I hope I'm not muddying up the water here.

[chris_waller]

Like Rich, I wouldn't use a hardening fixer. It makes it more difficult to wash out after processing. I also concur on the matter of dilution. I only use fixer at film strength - it fixes prints faster.

 

As for storage, I use old 2-litre domestic bleach bottles. These are made of dense plastic and have air-tight, childproof caps. I keep chemicals for months in them. I top the dev up after every session to keep the air out and prevent oxidation.<div></div>

[tripanfal]

Fixing paper at film strength...

OK, you guys know more than me. No arguments here.

 

I also use a two bath fix when printing.

 

My process is to use fixer once for film, then it goes into a jug for the first bath when printing. The second bath I mix fresh. I read (here) not to reuse fixer for film due to deposits/junk being transferred to the next roll.

 

I only pitch fixer when it fails the hypo check test.

[dave_f2]

so the impression i get so far is:

 

hardener is okay for film, but troublesome for prints

some people reuse fixer for film, but generally not for printing

always use film strength no matter what

if i reuse fixer it's best to have a two bath process?

 

what if i'm on my first batch and don't have any weak fixer. is it possible to fix for too long?

[dave_f2]

okay the line breaks got screwed up on my previous post

 

so the impression i get so far is:

 

hardener is okay for film, but troublesome for prints

 

some people reuse fixer for film, but generally not for printing

 

always use film strength no matter what

 

if i reuse fixer it's best to have a two bath process?

 

what if i'm on my first batch and don't have any weak fixer. is it possible to fix for too long?

[abica]

I'm back to muck up the water some more.

 

Dave, with the big yellow pouch of fixer WE are using, we are using different fix times than the ones suggested. Maybe this is due to the hardener, or a different formula (sodium hyposulfite as opposed to a non-acid fix or something?)

 

The fixer WE are using is mixed to working strength right out of the big yellow pouch.

 

Perhaps we need to look into some other brands, ones without hardener and with shorter fix times?

 

Very interesting.

 

You can over-fix a print. Somehow. It must take quite a while though.

 

I would not personally ever re-use fixer for film. I usually pour fixer from film processing into my tray, figuring 'the more the merrier' unless I am processing TMX.

 

Rich, this is good info, but what fixer do you use?

 

We darkroom types can complicate such a simple thing as fixer! Awesome!

 

I reiterate, stay with 'box' fix times for your kodak fixer for now. 30sec would be way short from my understanding.

 

In other news, I use clearing agent in a 4th tray. Once again, a dumping ground for film processing chemistry.

 

Don't do stuff like that drunk though, or you just might neutralize your tray of fixer or something stupid like that.

 

jw

[rich_ullsmith1]

I use Kodak Flexicolor. I got about 15 gallons for twenty bones at a closeout sale. Dilute 1+3.

 

I still do not understand the dumping of film fixer after a single use. Mix with distilled H2O, goes into a clean tank, back into a clean jug. . .where do "deposits and junk" come from? There is certainly an amount of junk that collects in a tray when printing, but even that has never caused a problem.

 

With RC paper and film, the 2-bath fix is really a matter of expediency and insurance. If your fixer cleans a leader of film, then the fixer is good. There's nowhere for the dissolved silver to go but into solution. But with fiber paper, two-bath is a must. Now the dissolved silver can either enter solution, or soak into the paper base. So, the fixer may still be active, but not be able to bring the dissolved silver out of the base. The first bath fixes, the second bath brings the dissolved silver into solution. My basic understanding.

[dave_f2]

haha this thread is really getting hilarious

 

rich, would you (or do you) use a two bath fix for film?

 

and joe, do you use a hardening fixer for both film and paper? if so is it equally tedious/simple? i can understand the problems with paper, but i don't know if it's as big an issue with film

[rich_ullsmith1]

Yes, I do use a 2-bath for film. But only for the assurance that if I go through a lot of film, if fix 1 weakens during the session, it doesn't matter because fix 2 is completely fresh. But this method doesn't extend fixer life like it does with FB paper.

 

I would not use a hardening fixer. If you ever want to revisit your prints, play with bleaching, redeveloping or toning, you have to get the hardener out, which I think is done in a warm alkaline bath. Don't quote me, as I've never used hardening fixer.

[dave_f2]

so just to be clear, is hardener on film not that big of an issue since you can't really go back and redo the film process? i already bought the fixer with hardener and i'd hate to just throw it out.

[dave_f2]

rich, one other question. from your process i think you're basically doing a 3 minute process with fresh mixer but split between two baths to preserve potency? am i understanding that right?

 

i think you also said that you reuse fixer so are you refreshing the original mixture?

 

 

thanks,

 

dave

[nbg90455]

"so just to be clear, is hardener on film not that big of an issue since you can't really go back and redo the film process? i already bought the fixer with hardener and i'd hate to just throw it out."

 

You _want_ a hardener in film fixer to make the film emulsion harder, i.e. more scratch resistant. No such need for paper...

[dave_f2]

got it...thanks for all your help

[dave_f2]

wait...thread's not done yet, i'm still curious about rich's process

[chris_waller]

OK, the water's getting muddy so I'll wade in knee-deep.

 

I also use the two-bath fixing technique for both film and paper (final prints, not test-strips or work prints). And thus I reuse stop and fixer, storing in bottles as per my earlier post, BUT I keep film chemicals and print chemicals separate. And, just in case, I filter the film chemistry once in a while to take out any particles which may have accumulated.

 

Dave, as you've probably figured by now, if you put twelve photographers in a room and ask them a question, you'll get twelve different opinions - or maybe even thirteen.