Infrared questions (confused)

[willscarlett]

I ordered some rolls of Kodak HIE, Rollei IR and the new Efke IR 820. I've done some reading on here,

mainly about the Kodak HIE and how to meter/expose it, but after reading, I'm more confused than I was

going into it.

 

What confuses me is this... I know HIE has an ASA of 400, but people say that the rate the film at 400 or

320, even with the 25A or R72 filter on the lens. How is this possible... don't you need to compensate by

opening the lens however many stops because filters like that block light? I know you need to bracket a bit

with HIE, but what's a safe way to start out shooting. Should you meter with the filter on the lens or put it

on after metering? Would the method differ for a 25A vs R72 filter?

 

I tried out a roll of Ilford SFX 200 on Monday in the Boston Public Garden. I'm going to develop it myself

next week, but here's how I shot it... I'm wondering if someone can tell me if I'll be in the ballpark with my

results. I used a 25A filter but would initially meter the scene with the camera's meter set at 200, then put

on the filter and open it up three stops. Since it's SFX 200 and the R25 filter needs 3 stops more exposure,

could you also set the camera's meter at 25 and meter thru the filter? I'm wondering cause I did some

shots that way as well.

 

Would the methods for shooting the Rollei IR be similar to Ilford SFX? And lastly, if anyone has any info on

how they've worked with the Efke IR, I'd appreciate that too.

 

Thanks!

[stephen sullivan]

Last month I shot a roll of HIE the following way:

 

With a B+W 090 [Red 25] I metered TTL at an EI 1000

 

With a Hoya R72 I metered TTL at an EI 2500

 

Example: EOS 1 w/ 85mm with R72 TTL @ EI 2500 AEB -/+ 2/3

 

I had the film developed in XTOL Stock for the ASA 400 index.

[stephen sullivan]

I've found here in Washington State where there is so much green folliage, I have to shoot at a much higher EI.

 

When I'm down in Los Angeles or Joshua Tree where everything is mostly brown, I'll shoot EI's of 400 - 800.

[RobertChura]

A red filter will block visible light but not infrared light, hence the difference of filter factors.

[willscarlett]

Stephen, did you get good results with the metering you described above?

 

Just to clarify, when you say you metered TTL at EI 2500, you set your meter for 2500 and

metered with the filter on the lens?

[chris_waller]

I rate it at 400 ASA and shoot through an R25 red filter, allowing 3 stops loss of light, i.e. I set my incident meter to 50 ASA. I dev in Rodinal 1:50, 20 C, 10 minutes.

 

If you use the camera's internal meter then you need to set the film-speed dial to 400 ASA because the meter will take account of the filter (BUT first check that the meter is not red-sensitive - if it is then you will need to compensate by setting the film speed to something lower).

[richam]

The films are sensitive to IR, but through the lens (TTL) meter IR sensitivity varies from

camera to camera. Best to bracket the shots on your first roll and keep good records so you

can use your own settings with your particular camera and filter setup. Typical HIE exposure

in sunlight is 1/125 sec at f11, using deep red or opaque filter. The darker the filter, the

better the IR effect. Good luck.

[neil_grant]

I'm sure that the information given here is intended to be useful but... on the whole it's far

too personal. It's difficult to infer the ASA sensitivity of HIE from a particular combination

of filter and TTL meter (because the spectral sensivity of the two are likely to be very

different)-

and also the meter may not be accuratley calibrated. So while a particular type of camera

operation/filter/ASA setting/film development may work for person X, then there is no

guarantee that it will work for person Y - who tires to replicate the advice but uses a

different brand of camera (with a diffeent spectral sensitivity, degree of accurate

calibration).

It's much more useful to know what sort of camera exposures you are giving - as in

Michael's post. Chris, your 25A filter may have a 3 stop factor with normal Pan film, it will

be far less with an IR film.

[Fotohuis RoVo]

Well I can talk about the Rollei IR 820/400 and the Maco IR820C (iso 100) which should be compatible with the Efke IR820C (iso 100) film.

 

Without filter the effective E.I. of the Rollei is just under iso 400.

For the Maco IR820C it's iso 80.

Depending on the IR circumstances and using a Heliopan RG715nm filter (#88A) you have to make an exposure for the Rollei IR820/400 around iso 12-25 and for the Maco IR820C around iso 3.

 

For the Rollei IR820/400 you need at least a RG695nm (#89B) filter to get the wood effect.

For the Maco IR820C you can also use RG665nm , RG645nm even (#29)(dark red) filters to get the wood effect.

Here is the data sheet from the Maco IR820C film. According the available information the Efke IR820C should be very simmular:

http://www.fotohuisrovo.nl/documentatie/IR820c.pdf

 

Best regards,

 

Robert

[bobmichaels]

John-Paul says: "I know HIE has an ASA of 400"

 

While Kodak Tech Pub F-13 http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/f13/f13.jhtml says things like:

 

"Normal ISO speed values do not apply to this film."

 

"We cannot give exact speed numbers for this film because the ratio of infrared to visible energy varies, and most exposure meters measure only visible radiation."

 

" Film Speed

 

You cannot make exact meter readings to determine exposure for infrared films. Exposure meters are not calibrated for infrared radiation, and the ratio of infrared to visible radiation varies with the light source. "

 

All of the above cut and pasted from the Kodak Tech Pub.

 

Personally I get the most very consistent exposures by ignoring the meter entirely and always shooting at f8 # 1/250th (equivalent to f11 @ 1/125th for those who are EV impaired) and simply ignoring the meter. I do occasionally adjust exposure for my evaluation of subject luminance but that's an eyeball thing.

 

After working with several new people shooting HIE, I remain convinced that the majority of exposure problems are caused by people clinging to the belief that they can use a traditional ISO and visible light meter approach to determining IR exposures.

[laurent1]

It depens if your camera mesure the light through the lens with the filter or not. If yes, I guess that the asa setting you are mentionning should be correct. Il not, you have to set a lower asa setting in order to compensate the light absorbtion of the filter. I shoot infrared with a Rolleiflex T. The light is not measured through the lens. I had good results with the Rollei IR and an asa setting of 25, with the originial rolleiflex IR filter (~730). In the HIE film box you find instructions about the approximate asa setting, depending on the filter you are using. With an B+W 092, I had good results with an asa setting of 125. But, as usual with IR you have to make a lot of bracketing in order to have good results.

[frank.schifano]

"I used a 25A filter but would initially meter the scene with the camera's meter set at 200, then put on the filter and open it up three stops."

 

That strategy will probably get you closer to optimal exposure than setting the camera's meter at 200 and measuring the light through the filter. You can't count on the camera's meter response being the same for heavily filtered light as it is for unfiltered daylight.

 

...the R25 filter needs 3 stops more exposure, could you also set the camera's meter at 25 and meter thru the filter?

 

That is guaranteed to give you grossly over exposed negatives. Assuming that the meter's response is "correct," you'll wind up with about 6 stos more light than you need. Think about it.

[helenbach]

Yes, if you meter through the filter you are using whatever is left of your meter's sensitivity after the filter has severely reduced the intensity of the wavelengths that your meter is most sensitive to. The short pass (IR cut) filter in front of the meter cell is rarely perfect, so some IR usually gets through. Just to add another personal example, I set the TTL meter of an M7 to 1600 with HIE and an 093 filter, and that usually gets me the generous exposure I like.

 

Best, Helen

[dougsmiley]

I shoot HIE in an N90s with a 25 red filter, with film speed set at 400. I usually have the camera set on auto (aperture preferred), and 90% of my exposures are well exposed and easy to print. At the beach with so much bright sand, I meter off a gray card and shoot in manual mode.

 

I process the film in D-76 1:0, 72 degrees, for 10m 15 sec, with 30 sec. initial agitation, and 3 inversions every 30 sec. thereafter.

[neil_grant]

I see....loads more anecdotes regarding HIE exposure. OK, so you have to tell eveyone the

minutae of your technique - go ahead. Much more useful though would be the typical camera

exposures you're giving. eg 1/250 @ f/8 etc. HIE is normally used under a limited range of

weather conditions (sunny) and as some of your posters have already realised fiddling around

with a light meter (TTL or otherwise) and various levels of compensation on auto settings

simply isn't necessary. Using the film as above, with an R25a filter, I give 1/125 @ f/11

which is the same camera exposure as 1/60 @ f/16 - suggesting a daylight equivalent ASA

of 64. I'm not afraid to bracket with this film - and would suggest this to anyone wanting to

get to grips with it. When it come to printing it's always nice to have choice of negs.

[stephen sullivan]

Yes John-Paul, you understood. I got excellent results.

 

Load HIE into an EOS 1 + EF 28mm, 50mm, 85mm, 135mm, etc.

 

If I put my B+W 090 [Red 25] onto any of the aforementioned lenses, I will set my cameras EI to 1000. I will set the camera into Auto Exposure Bracketing at -/+ 2/3 from Normal. Then I let the camera do the rest for Auto Exposure by metering TTL.

 

Same applies when I put the Hoya R72 on a lens. I just bump up the EI to 2500 & AEB -/+ 2/3 from normal. Again, TTL.

 

Again, I'm here in Seattle where everything is so green. When I'm in Los Angeles, I have to lower my numbers. 25A EI 400 - 800 or R72 EI 800 - 1600

[helenbach]

"HIE is normally used under a limited range of weather conditions (sunny)"

 

HIE is well worth trying in a wide range of weather conditions and in the deep shade of a forest. Nearly all my pictorial use of HIE is in those conditions. It has a good response when used with fairly deep IR filters like the B+W 093 / Schott RG830 and the similar Wratten #87C - filters that are unuseable with other films.

 

Best, Helen

[timbowles]

I ignore my camera's meter as well- I have found through bracketing that if I rate HIE at 200 using a 25 filter and the sunny 16 rule, I get the most printable negs. I will often take an extra shot at ISO 400 if there's alot of foliage or it's super dazzling sun as a back-up. *** I also minus 3 stops for the filter, and as mentioned before, it's not a true 3 stop reduction in light but it eases my calcultations *** So I tend to shoot at f/16 @ 1/30 to 1/60. I develop in TMax for 6 min, agitating only once a minute though (it's pretty fragile stuff). You can see that I'm giving a heck of alot more exposure that Bob and Neil, but my development probably makes the difference. I find that if I give more exposure, there's too much white, and if you rate the film too fast, it gets too grainy. If you check out my portfolio, I made 16x20 enlargements of "Mystic Creek2" and "Connaught Beach1" and they look great and virtually grain-free from 4 feet away. I think that it is equally important to ask what developing technique is being used with this film when you're asking about how to expose it. I've seen some people rate this film at ISO 800 or more, but then develop it for 11 or 12 minutes. No real right answer, as there are many ways to use this film. you need to pick one of the suggested techniques and try it. If you don't like the result, try a different one, but you're going to have to do alot of bracketing and experimentation for your first few rolls. Once you go through a couple rolls, you'll get the hang of how it responds.

[rich_ullsmith1]

I'm hearing about the same things I've found with HIE. f8 @250 or f11@ 125 in bright sun and a 25 or 29 red filter. D-76 neat for 11 minutes. And for the Maco, metering at ISO 6 with a 89b filter gives negs that are too thin, IMO, and would be better metered at ISO 3, as was suggested.

[willscarlett]

Lots of good useful info here, thanks everyone. One thing I've noticed about TTL metering

with my cameras (Nikon 8008s, Canon AE- P) is that I don't think the camera automatically

compensates for the filter. Usually, I use a Y2 filter when shooting normal film, but if I

leave the camera's meter set at box speed, my negatives are usually underexposed. If I set

the meter or EV to be over by one stop, then I get good stuff. So, that was why I tried a few

shots, metering with the filter on and the meter at 25.

 

Chris, when you say you use an incident meter, would that be a handheld meter? I've got a

Sekonic L-558, is that the (in general) what you're talking about?

 

It was good to hear someone say that they've shot IR in a Nikon N90s with good results.

I've been trying to find out if my 8008s would fog IR film. Now, it seems like I could give it

a whirl. I'm still trying to figure out the meter on the Canon... it's center weighted and

always throws me for a loop.

 

How many stops compensation would a Hoya R72 require? That's most likely the IR filter I

would buy/can afford... but if people have a better one to suggest, I'm all ears. I already

have the R25.

[timbowles]

just use the 25. then you can focus normally, and can see what you're doing through the viewfinder. I wouldn't get hung up on using a meter either- it'll make it more complicated than necessary.

[brian_sayler]

OK, I'm reading ALOT of stuff in this thread that's really hard to understand for a total novice. What does EI 1000 or EI 2500 mean, for example?

 

Can someone please simplify this and give me a stepwise process? Such as, 1. Meter at ISO 400 with no filter in place (if I'm using Rollei ISO 400 IR film, for example). 2. place the IR filter. 3. set the camera to ISO 12/25 and use the same aperture and shutter speed obtained in step 1. 4. expose.

 

Could someone please give me simple steps like this to start out with, say, Rollei ISO 400 and an 89B filter? So many of these other answers are too complicated! I don't understand the relationship between the ISO of the film and the one I should set the camera to.

[Fotohuis RoVo]

Rollei IR 820/400 (820 stands for max. sensitivity, 820nm, 400 for standard iso rate: 400), without filter will react as a standard panchromatic B&W film. So the E.I. (Exposure Index) is iso 400.

Setting on your camera exposure metering iso 400 with the appropriate aperture and shutter speed.

Because your light meter is not calibrated for I.R. light it will be always a gamble which will be the right E.I. when using the light meter. Depending on the I.R. circumstances with this film and a 89B IR filter you will loose about 5F stops: So from iso 400 - 200 - 100 -50 - 25 - 12 (=5 F stops). So expose your iso 400 film now as iso 12. Focus, correct the red I.R. dot (on the distance scale) for the IR breaking index, which is slightly different as visible light. Put the filter on, take the picture and make some bracketing +1F and -1F because you don't know exactly how the IR light will be in reality.

For a lot of I.R. work you will need a solid tripod due to the longer shutter times (blurr) and because you want an aperture (e.g. 8 or 11) to get enough depth of field (DOF) because mostly this type of photography is used for landscape photography. Chlorofyl (green in the plants) will react strong on I.R. light.

Here is also an article on I.R. photography:

http://www.vividlight.com/Articles/2915.htm

 

You can load the Rollei IR820/400 in subdue light. HIE (Kodak) you have to load and unload in total darkness due to it's sensitivity over 900nm. Also not all cameras are suitable for I.R. film. If they are using I.R. LEDs for transport of the film you will have a problem (fogging) with the I.R. film.

 

Hopefully things are more clear to you now. Sorry for my English, Dutch and German is easier for me.

[brian_sayler]

I'm sorry to ask this again, I must seem really dense! When you say that I should expose my 400 film at ISO 12, do you mean that I should obtain a shutter speed and aperture with the meter at 400 and then use those same exact numbers without changing them, but with the camera set at ISO 12? Or do I need to make my 5 stop correction by changing the aperture and/or shutter, and set my ISO at 12 as well?

 

I mean, should my shutter speed/aperture change, or only my ISO setting?

[Fotohuis RoVo]

Always make one or two exposures with an IR film without filter (so on iso 400) because only here you can check later if your development is OK. (Valid for developers like Rollei High Speed, Xtol a.s.o.) If using Rodinal you have to expose this film on E.I. 250 without filter.

Rest of the film you expose on iso 12-25 depending on IR circumstances which is experience later. (When using Rodinal iso 8).

If you change iso setting it's of course clear that the shutter speed and/or aperture will change either. This is very basic knowledge in this matter.

If you're using an external exposure meter you are measuring incedent light on iso 400. e.g. 1/500S F=11

With the filter on you can do: 1/15S (mirror up and tripod to prevent blurr) F=11 (5 F stops) and try F=8 and F=16 either (+/- 1F bracketing).

Or use 1/125S F=4 (also 5 F stops) by hand but on F=4 your D.O.F. is much smaller and mostly undisirable in landscape photography.

Do not forget the small distance correction (I.R.) when using the filter either.

I can recomment you to read some literature in this matter, e.g. this one:

http://www.fotohuisrovo.nl/documentatie/Schroeders_N_P_Infrarot.pdf

 

ISBN 3-00-010072-5: Schroeders Negativ Praxis

 

Written by the CEO of Rollei/Maco, Mr. Schroeder. But there is a lot of literature available. Hopefully every thing is clear to you now, also that I.R. photography is mainly based on some experience and some luck to get the perfect picture.