Should I Cancel My M8 Order?

[gary_ferguson1]

I waited to read the reviews before ordering an M8 because the technical

barriers seemed substantial and Leica isn't particularly well resourced or

experienced with digital.

 

However, Sean Reid and Luminous Landscapes both agreed that Leica had scored a

bulls eye with the M8, so I placed an order. But now I'm reading that maybe

it's a seriously flawed design, or then again maybe it's a trivial and

inconsequential defect that simply won't affect real world photography.

 

So what should I do? Look forward to my M8 arriving early next year, leave the

order in place but delay it until Leica have fixed the problems, or cancel the

order completely?

[elmarfudd]

From what I read, the flaws didn't seem more severe than the issues that many Canon and Nikon DSLRs have suffered out of the box. I think most shooters will find them to be nonissues, and problems only in theory.

[leica ron]

The good thing about Leica is that they're not able to bring out new model after new model every 18 months like Canon seems to. Which means that they'll likely iron out the problems well before the next model. So, there will be a 'good' M8.

 

So, if you wait for an M8 body in 12 months time, it should have the bugs ironed out and modifications made.

 

As long as you haven't put down a huge downpayment, I'd keep my name on the list and when you're number's up and you're still not sure, ask them to move you down the line a bit.

 

Time will tell if the M8 improves (I'm sure it will).

 

The M8 appears to be a radical design and will have different issues to all those DSLRs from Canon/Nikon/Sony/Pentax/etc. It still has a lot going for it and I'm sure that major issues will be ironed out ...

[Alex_Es]

Okay, I am out of it. What are the design flaws in question? My M8 should be in my hands in

December. What should I watch for?

[SCL]

Oh, you should definitely cancel your order and let somebody else get your flawed camera :). Come on, you're always going to have differences of opinion as well as ongoing technical improvements. If you want the camera belly up to the bar and take delivery, if you want to wait for the perfect camera...well, it probably won't arrive during your lifetime, especially if you can't come to your own conclusions when presented with differing opinions. I bought a new M4 in 1969 against the advice of my shipmate who was a Leica salesman in real life...who said "yes, it's nice, but you can't beat an M3". The M4 is still in my stable working hard (and I like it better than the M3 this many years out). So, get on with life and enjoy your M8...it won't be perfect, but Nirvana counts...and console yourself that the M9 won't be perfect either, nor the M10, etc.

[albert knapp md]

Gary- every camera has issues and these issues are really minor and will eventually be addressed. Get your cameranad enjoy it. The Reid and Luminous reviews were awesome and independent. The m8 is the new M3!

[peter_white2]

The bizarre flare issue looks pretty severe to me. The black fabric and black plastic surfaces turning magenta is probably fixable without throwing out the high detail this sensor is capable of. But who knows for sure? I assume the banding is an easy fix.

 

These three problems together may not all be fixable, and to me they aren't minor. I wouldn't even put down a deposit at this point. I'm waiting until it's all sorted out. And I think there's a strong possibility that it will never be completely sorted out without drastic changes that compromise image quality.

 

I'm keeping my money in the bank.

[Brad_]

<I>I waited to read the reviews before ordering an M8 because the technical barriers

seemed substantial and Leica isn't particularly well resourced or experienced with

digital.</I><P>

 

The problem is many of the "reviewers," while good-intentioned, do not seem motivated

to go deep looking for potential issues - at least intially. Take Reichmann's review for

example. He goes on about leica not employing an AA filter and the camera's resulting

sharpness. True enough. But, there's a technical fact-of-life consequence from not

employing one: moire. Moire was not even mentioned. Did he look and test for it? Who

knows? A prudent review would have adressed that - <I>especially</I> if no moire was

detected.<P>

 

It's human nature for many - focus and be blinded by the good and not look very deeply

for the bad. Seems there's a ton of pressure to get "reviews" out quickly. No doubt it's an

OK camera, but if it were my money, and if I really needed one, I'd sure wait for the dust to

settle. Some issues might be able to be addressed with firmware - others will not be.

[alan_simon]

Gray,

 

I agree with Albert (and others) who advise you to keep your date with a great new image maker.

 

While mine is only two days old and the pictures have only been test shots, I think that it's a winner. It handles like an M, provides infiniely more options in the camera and on the computer than a film-based camera, and it seems like most of our dreams were answered. I can't wait for Saturday and a walk in the Big Apple with my M8.

 

Enjoy,

 

Alan

[harvey_trautenberg1]

I think I am more concerned with the IR issues and the need to put a filter on the lens to balance a faulty design. It raises concerns as to what other band-aids and compromises will be required. Why rush?

[samir]

Exactly why rush? Leica is now working on a solution, some forum reports that next Leica's Newsletter due tomorrow will discuss the issues.

[david_chang_sang]

The biggest issue I've seen are the IR problem (take a look elsewhere online.. there's a black coat that shows up as off red or pink).

<p>

I could live with chromatic abberations and a bit of flare and even some moire, but not being able to get the colours right is totally off base for me. And the resultant "solution" that one reviewer received from Leica USA is disgraceful imho for a company that should be held to standards above the rest if not for their lengthy history then at least for the retail price of their products.

[uk]

Gary,

My story is the same as yours and I believed that Sean Reid was fully equipped to review

the camera. Although hesitant to be a beta tester, I placed my order with confidence and

started to offload serious amounts of gear onto eBay to fund it.

 

The M8 was to be a key element in the complete restructuring of my photographic

equipment to face the commercial photographic opportunities available. My large format

gear has gone; my Ebony 45SU is mine no more. My 'fringe' Hasselblad gear (SWC/M &

120mm Makro) was on eBay, and the rest was ready to join it, when user reports on the

M8 performance started coming. I pulled them back. The tools that have produced every

credible photo in my portfolio was on the line.

 

I was committed and have now taken a step back. I haven't cancelled, but I won't take

delivery until my confidence is restored and I anticipate that will take 12 months.

 

The M8 will be sorted. It will become a landmark camera for Leica and for digital

photography in general, IMO.

 

What should you do ? Hmmm, I can only advise the same as I've done myself. I do not

want, indeed cannot allow, an additional GBP 5,000 investment (M8 + wide lens + accs) to

sit

awaiting a solution that allows me to use it for paid work. As it is, it wold become a hobby

camera and I have an M3 for that. My 2p.

[cdnguyen]

I have not canceled my M8 order. I suspect Leica will send current M8 owners the IR filter kit and will have a price increase on future M8 to make up for the filter kit. it's not the end of the world for me.

[raymond_tai]

I am sure there will be a permanent fix. A $5000 mistake can kill a company, take the

Contax N digital.

[stric]

Man, it's really up to you.

[vinay_patel]

"From what I read, the flaws didn't seem more severe than the issues that many Canon and Nikon DSLRs have suffered out of the box. I think most shooters will find them to be nonissues, and problems only in theory."

 

What forum are you reading that? There are dozens of threads on the Leica-User-Forum (a generally basher-free zone) from respected professional photographers (see Mark Williams' response to another thread on this forum)who see these issues as quite serious. From the look of the pictures that have been posted, I have a lot of trouble imagining how anyone will consider them "nonissues" unless they only take a few snapshots of their backyard in broad daylight.

 

"Gary- every camera has issues and these issues are really minor and will eventually be addressed. Get your cameranad enjoy it. The Reid and Luminous reviews were awesome and independent. The m8 is the new M3!"

 

Albert I respect your photographic skills to value your opinion, but have you looked at the pictures posted from the M8 made in artificial light? Have you taken your M8 and done some shots in the theater or symphony, with spotlights above and people wearing black costumes?

 

 

Gary: my answer to you is, if I were you I would probably not cancel the order, since yours isn't due to arrive until at least January. You can always decline it the day they call that it's in, if necessary, so why give up your place in line? I had no choice but to cancel my order, as mine was one of the first.

[john_a.]

For whats its worth, I'm keeping my order. I'm sure I could tweek it with capture on or photoshop cs. I only shoot raw, so that will help.

[akochanowski]

While I have no desire for an M8 I thought it was an interesting and potentially excellent idea. But the cheerleaders in this thread alone show why so many photographers look at the Leica crowd with incredulity and frankly with disdain. Take a look at the examples posted on the LUF thread that is linked elsewhere here. Stuart Richardson posted a picture he took at the Expo. It has a band running directly across the upper half of the picture. The color cast is horrendous. Reports in the thread from another user who took delivery are that the banding is severe in low light shooting. <p>Then take a look in the same thread at the photos from a piano recital taken with a delivered unit. They have a pronounced magenta cast. <p>Let's sum up: your $5,000 will get you a camera that needs you to use an IR filter if you want to have accurate color reproduction-- a filter that can only be used with coded lenses. You will get unpredictable banding which cannot be fixed in photoshop. And apparently your camera will turn itself off every 500 shots or so.<p>Today $1500 will get you a 10MP DSLR from Canon or Nikon that is essentially the same size as an M8 and that will get you virtually perfect WB. Chances are very high that it will work essentially flawlessly for 100,000 shutter cycles. And don't even get started on the whole Leica lens thing: in digi drag you will never see the difference between a decent Canon/Nikon prime and a Leica prime. Whatever negligible differences may exist in the glass end get wiped out by the signal processing before you even see the image.<p>So to the OP, I would cancel in a nanosecond and go shoot some pictures with whatever made you happy till now.

[leica ron]

I remember when I got my Nikon D2H, it was toward the end of its life, the D2Hs was out and everyone was holding their breath for the D2X.

 

People warned me about the colour issues, the noise, the small sensor, the need for a hot mirror filter, yikes, the camera sounded like a real dud.

 

I've had it for a couple of years and quite happily print files upto 13x19". It's a fabulous camera. There are better, there always is.

 

As with other cameras, it's a tool. I'm sure that many issues will be handled in a firmware upgrade and/or new RAW processing software.

 

There are, as ever, design comprimises made, for all the positives, this sensor will have its negatives ...

[Aoresteen]

Since my newest Leica is a 1984 M4-P, I am just getting ready to consider an M6. The M8 will be on my list in 2018 or so.

 

Cancel the order!

[gary_ferguson1]

I think the M8 IR issues are serious, see these examples

 

http://homepage.mac.com/billh96007/PhotoAlbum196.html

 

At first it's easy to miss, then you realise there's an unrealistically high percentage of people wearing magenta dresses and magenta suits!

 

Leica have issued a statement saying there's a three part fix, a firmware upgrade in late November, lens coding, and using a IR/UV filter on every lens. It's reassuring to learn there's a solution, but I'm unsure if this solution will work for me. For example I had planned on using the forthcoming Zeiss 21mm f4.5 as part of my M8 lens line up (I want a compact travel outfit), but obviously that can't be coded. Furthermore, how expensive will these filters be, will they work with a polarizer filter, and are there undesirable side effects?

 

I think I'll leave my deposit with the dealer for the time being, but if this isn't resolved before the M8 is due I guess I'll have no option but to refuse delivery.

[gary_ferguson1]

<<A $5000 mistake can kill a company, take the Contax N digital.>>

 

That's a scary thought, but you're probably right. It sounds melodramatic but the fate of Leica probably hangs on getting a satisfactory fix for these problems.

[vinay_patel]

"For whats its worth, I'm keeping my order. I'm sure I could tweek it with capture on or photoshop cs. I only shoot raw, so that will help."

 

You should contact some of the guys on the Leica-User-Forum site who could supply you with M8 raw files. I'm sure they would be eternally beholden to you if you could come up with a sequence or write an action to solve these problems. Some of those fellows seem to be highly experienced in digital processing and they can't seem to do it.

[leicaglow]

This is why I was so cranky in this forum because no one was releasing real images with the M8. That was a huge heads-up to me. Then the next thing I know, dozens of people suddenly have one. The process got short-changed somewhere. I'm sure the issues will get ironed out, but it is enormously frustrating to photographers to have to send equipment in for service and wonder if another problem will crop up. Also, it sounds like a purple fringing problem (maybe that's just not as nice as saying "magenta creeping into the shadows"). I would expect more from a Leica lens.