Security thought i was a spy with my M

[vic_.]

<i>"But the problem with malls is that it is NOT a public space. It is all private and the owners can set the rules."</i>

<p>Some courts have ruled that they are PUBLIC spaces for certain uses. This is not the case in every jurisdiction. In some cities the shopping mall has replaced the public town square (alas, a dying entity in most towns). Where else do people congregate randomly?

<p>The public ruling was to allow groups to disseminate political leaflets, a more protected right than the protection of mall architecture and store layouts.

[raymond_tai]

Very much OT but interesting nevertheless. I used to work security part time during my

school years and you'll be surprised how many people like to have sex in their cars. They

think just because the parking lot is empty that no one is watching. The paranoia about

cameras is moot since mobile phones have digicams built in. This sort of thing is really hard

to poice.

[frederick_muller]

I like to prowl London and Paris and just about any city late at night, sometimes even after midnight and into the early morning. It's great to be able to photograph without the crowds. Once I was photographing the Guildhall in London at one o'clock in the morning. A police Bobby stopped me and asked for my ID. I explained who I was, where I lived, what I was doing (a photographic project on London) and he checked me out. He explained that the Guildhall was one of London's most photographed buildings, and that bad guys would love to photograph it while casing the place. He was very polite and nice to me once I checked out. I told him I understood, but if I were a bad guy casing the place, I would show up in broad daylight, with my girlfriend or wife, with three screaming kids in tow (maybe borrowed), and line them up in front of the Guildhall and ask him to pose with them while I photographed them AND the background. You gotta respect the security.

[Allen Herbert]

recording all my exposures in a little black book and pulling out my incident meter every once in awhile.

 

And waving a camera around.Sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.

 

There's a thought.

[keirst]

Check out <a href="www.photopermit.org">PhotoPermit.org</a> for lots of horror

stories on abuse of photographers by private security guards and police. The site has news

stories, an archive, a forum and useful links regarding your rights, especially <a

href="http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm">http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm

</a>, lawyer Bert P. Krages' excellent summary of your First Amendment rights and their

limitations.<br><br>

 

I myself was harassed last year on the public sidewalk in Boston while photographing the

One Lincoln Place State Street Financial building with my M7 and a 25mm lens. A security

guard came out and told me I had to stop photographing the building because it was

private property. When I told him I was standing on public property and could photograph

from there, he threatened to call the cops because the building was private. I gave him my

business card and told him I was an artist and he finally left me alone. I was so mad at that

point my hands were shaking, and I could no longer hold the camera steady so I left. I read

up on the subject and found out I indeed had been in the right. Buildings and corporations

have no right of privacy and can be photographed from public space.

 

<br><br>Now every time I go by I photograph the One Lincoln building, if the light is

decent. In

December, while doing this I ran into State Street's Head of Security, who was very polite

but did ask me why I was photographing the building. Being a photographer himself he

was much more sympathetic than his employee had been months earlier.

[Brad_]

Horror story indeed! This is so silly and childish.

 

A guy with a camera wanders around a mall, sneaking pics, making notes in a little black

book, and using a light meter; an odd-looking electrical device that 99+% of the public

have never seen before.

 

And then goes on using loaded language like getting "the third degree" when a guard had

the audacity to ask him what he was doing. Jeez, get real.

 

Fortunately, it's still OK for property owners to ask questions and restrict what happens on

their property.

 

And to top it off, and what makes this story really bizarre, is that the guards said he could

shoot on their property merely by checking in beforehand. Which goes to show many

people are reasonable when your behavior is transparent, rather than sneaky.

 

Extending this line of thought, should it be OK for me to walk into say, a bank and behave

similarly (sneaking pix, making notes, and waving around a strange electrical device) -

with the notion that if anybody dared challenge me on what I was doing, I should be able

to whine about my freedoms being curtailed. What if I was wearing a mask which I

certainly have the right to do. Again, questions should be off-limits, right?

 

Where's everyone's common sense? And what's really funny, is when this comes up from

time to time, I have yet to see ANY interesting pics shot on a mall. OK, lets so lets see

them...

 

I still can't believe this was posted after the guards said it was OK to shoot if they got a

heads-up first. Yes, Coprporate America at its worst...

[__jon__]

>scott richards , feb 10, 2006; 02:38 p.m.

This is an excerpt taken from the NYC MTA Rules of conduct stating that photography is

allowed:

"Photography, filming or video recording in any facility or conveyance is permitted except

that ancillary equipment such as lights, reflectors or tripods may not be used. Members of

the press holding valid identification issued by the New York City Police Department are

hereby authorized to use necessary ancillary equipment. All photographic activity must be

conducted in accordance with the provisions of this Part."

 

I have this printed out on one side of a page and a copy of "The Photographer's Rights"

printed on the other. You would be amazed at how many NYPD and MTA employees

haven't a clue such a thing exists--and are arrogantly ignorant of the law. Show it to them

next time they hassle you in the subway. Make sure to mention that is illegal to falsely

accuse you of a crime.

[marv_stasak___southfield__]

Hiding cameras in shopping bags? Under coats? What kind of creative composition could result from that? And you would get irate if some police officer asked you what you were doing? Use some common sense. Remember also that others have rights, too; like a right to privacy and a respect for their dignity. There is such a thing as common courtesy. Ask to shoot pictures. If refused, say thank you and walk away. Does all this sound like you heard it before? Like from your mother or your kindergarten teacher?

[nels]

Agree with Brad and others above. What made the security suspicious was not so much your camera, but your use of the incident meter and taking notes - activities that most people are not accustomed to seeing on any regular basis. The security folks have a job to do and a right to ask questions, especially when they notice those types of activities. A polite and confident explanation would usually suffice.

<br><br>

Time for a mall pic. No incident meter was harmed in taking of the pic below.<br><br>

<center><img src="http://i.pbase.com/v3/35/596435/2/49801236.Tired.jpg"></center>

[rj]

Why do all these storys of oppressive security forces taking away the rights of all take place in Malls? Malls in America are private property, not public poperty. Individual people or companies have paid for the land and the buildings, renting space out for other retail companies to sell their goods. That means that the owners of the mall can refuse photography on the property and enforce those rules with a private security force. You can get kicked out of malls and asked not to come back, if you do you are guilty of trespassing. If a security guard (not to be confused with a law enforcement officer) asks you to stop or gives you the "third degree" because you are photographing on their property, that is well withing their rights. Sneaking around like a spy, hiding your camera and sneaking shots will only cause problems, not to mention bad photography.

[sprouty]

Somewhere in the vast space we call the Internet is a Security Guard forum where there is a posting about some "a$$-hole photographer" that was asked why he was photographing the building he works at. He goes on to explain that his boss takes his job seriously and is concerned about actually protecting the people who work there. And everyone on the forum is adding comments about how the same thing happened to them, and how it seems any time you ask any photographer what they're doing they throw a hissy-fit.

 

Food for thought for our repressed community...

[eliot_rosen1]

I agree with Brad, Marv, and the security guard who was just doing his job. Don't people have the right to privacy (the right not to be photographed) on private property?

[Brad_]

Eliot, I think you are agreeing for a different reason. My view is that a property owner has

the right to control what happens on his property and to be able to ask questions of

someone whose behavior isn't making sense. For example, if someone walks into a bank

carrying a suspicious looking device, or wearing a mask, it should be OK for a guard to

engage that person in conversation and resolve the suspicious behavior.

 

I believe you are making a claim with respect to an expectation of privacy - I have no idea

if such an expectation exists in a mall.

[roger krueger]

<i>< Don't people have the right to privacy (the right not to be photographed) on private

property?</i>

<br><br>

No, they don't. No court is going to support a reasonable expectation of privacy in the

public area of a mall. More intimate settings get less clear--I know NY has at least once

found a reasonable expectation of privacy in a restaraunt, but this sort of thing varies

wildly by jurisdiction, and it's pretty much all case law rather than statute. Premises

requiring tickets for entry are trouble some--but not most--places.

<br><br>

<i> Now even though there are no signs saying you cannot you will get your equipment

taken, fined and even arrested if you get caught taking pictures of the transit system, the

entrance, trains, people, etc...</i>

<br><br>

Only if the cop is crooked. The MTA considered a photo ban, but there was enough outcry

they officially killed it. Doesn't mean you won't get talked to, but you're not doing anything

wrong. The was a period where the not-yet-approved ban was being more-or-less

enforced, but that's over now.

<br><br>

<i> Well, other stores apparently do watch their competitors and try to steal layouts. </i>

<br><br>True enought, but it's an especially stupid justiication for banning

photography. I've done "corporate espionage", for display fixtures (not really to steal, just

to get a feel for what the competitors were doing). It's easy because you care very little

about quality. I use my boss's old 2mp Canon S10, shot from the hip. Never been caught,

even in ultra-secure consumer electronics stores. But pull out a decent camera, put it to

your eye, and watch the security come out of the woodwork.

[keirst]

Brad, I hope you would agree that it would be inappropriate for a security guard to yell at

someone to stop taking pictures when the photographer is on a public sidewalk. If the

photographer gives a rude reply the security guard should not be surprised. However, it is

always best for photographers to keep their cool and be as civil as possible when confronted.

Security guards should be polite and professional in their inquiries, and not threaten arrests

for made-up "crimes". Of course if you are on or inside private property (as in the original

poster's

case) the rules are different from state to state and city to city. It is always best to ask

permission if you plan to photograph in a private space.

[Brad_]

<I>Brad, I hope you would agree that it would be inappropriate for a security guard to yell at

someone to stop taking pictures when the photographer is on a public sidewalk.</I><P>

 

Huh??? Glenn was in a mall; private property.

[keirst]

Brad, read more closely. I was not talking about Glen Owens, he had a different experience, I

was talking about me! See my first post above, paragraph 2 & 3.

[Brad_]

<I>If the photographer gives a rude reply the security guard should not be surprised.

</I><P>

 

Well, I don't know Steven... I've learned that it's pretty easy to get along with everyone.

You get back what you put into an engagement. If you want to let your ego rule and

escalate a situation by giving a rude reply, that's certainly your prerogative. Just remember

the other person has an ego and a certain amount of prestige to protect as well. Is the

goal to win the argument and come out on top or to get through a situation and take the

pix you wanted to take?<P>

 

If you employ good people skills and like engaging people, then there will usually be a

good outcome. The choice is yours.<P>

 

Sounds like Glenn made a good recovery in that he was invited to shoot in the mall by

giving security a heads-up. Sounds reasonable to me, and I bet he'll get much better

photos in the future without the pressure of needing to be sneaky.<P>

 

Street photography isn't for everyone. There's a certain dynamic about how you relate to

people on the street and in situations that will no doubt determine how successful you are.

If you feel the need to be rude as a defense, then your success will probably be limited.

[keirst]

Oops! Sorry Glenn Owens, I misspelled your name! I hate it when people do that. Apologies!

[terry_rory]

Always worth a smile when you get 'caught' (you often get a smile back)....

 

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/trevorhare/91377369/" title="Trevor Hare 2006"><img src="http://static.flickr.com/11/91377369_4397e8e3ac_o.jpg" width="511" height="748" alt="London streets" /></a>

[keirst]

Being polite is always the best policy on the street, but sometimes it is not easy, especially if

you are being yelled at when you are not doing anything to merit it. I'm a rather shy guy but I

still get good shots. Unfortunately, there are a lot of cops, security guards and transit

workers who use 9/11 as a shibboleth to intimidate photographers in public places. It has

happened to me more than the once I mentioned above. <a

href="www.photopermit.org">PhotoPermit.org</a> archives several stories of people

wrongly arrested for photography in public places, harassed and even assaulted by security

guards, etc. Check it out, there are interesting stories there.

[barefoot]

I was with the missus in a mall in Atlanta a few years back when we both decided to

explore the place on our own. We went our separate ways and I'd been gone no more than

10 mins when I realised I'd left my bag, complete with passport, cash and camera, at the

cafe we'd just left. I freaked and ran back to the cafe, imagining the worst. What I saw,

when I got back to where I'd left my bag, still haunts me to this day. Sitting cross-legged

on the table was a security guard, armed with a shotgun, with my bag in his lap. Gingerley,

I approached him. He seemed to be in a trance. I reached out to grab my bag but, quick as

a flash, he grabbed my hand and said to me, <i>sotto voce</i>, '9/11 Must never happen

again' and then let me go.

<p>

Went home and thought nothing more of it. Well one more loon would make that much

difference. Imagine my horror, therefore, when two years <i>later</i>, 9/11 actually took

place.

<p>

Spooky or what!

[Brad_]

<I>Unfortunately, there are a lot of cops, security guards and transit workers who use

9/11 as a shibboleth to intimidate photographers in public places.</I><P>

 

A lot of cops?<P>

 

Odd, neither myself or another dozen serious street photographers I know and respect

(each having shot many tens of thousands of street pix) over many years have yet to have

any bad encounters like that. I suspect it has to do with how you carry yourself, engage

people, and deal with situations. Nobody I know, including myself worries about security

guards. Of course if you're the type to worry about such things, and are easily provoked to

rudeness, then I suspect any slight you may encounter will be a huge deal.

[robert_m_johnson]

Different Times...

 

http://www.fullframeimages.com/ffi68.html

[thomas_sullivan]

I can vouch for the NYC police being knowledgable about photographer's rights. Stnding in Time Square, with grant (not that that maters any), and I took a pic of this woman entering the door of a store right next to me. She had a fit! Wanted my film and everthing. Said I couldn't just take a picture of her. she's yelling and screamning at me, and I'm just politely and calmly telling her that it was legal to do what I just did. she just kept on ranting and raving. I started ignoring her by looking the other way, and noticed a NYC cop standing 5 feet away from me...next to grant, actually...and I turned back to the woman and said, "go ask that cop if I can do what I'm doing". so, she did..........she came back PISSED! Said she still wanted my film. I asked her what the cop said, and she wouldn't tell me....she just wanted my film. I turned my back on her, saying nothing. After she finally gave up and left, the cop said something like, "I told her it was ok, she just didn't want to hear it."

 

I've had many other NYC and Philadelphia cops see me taking pics and have never been approached. I've even started conversations with them, and they never got past very casual mentioning of my activity....not even "cop" like, more just casual conversation.

 

I think the majority of the "actual" police, at least in the NY, NJ, PA area know the laws now a days. Transit cops and security guards are usually the problem. Although, I have never been bothered by MTA transit or Septa (philly) transit cops. Other transit and security...not so knowledgable if you ask me.....