DMR (Update) and M7, 50/1.4 ASPH ... Go to Hollywood.

[terence_mahoney]

"Douglas Herr Prolific Poster, feb 01, 2006; 05:19 p.m.

Terence,

 

If you click on their names, Guy Mancuso, Paul Moore and Marc Williams all have links to their professional websites where we can see what kind of photography they do. Can you show us what sort of photography you do? I don't see a link to your website."

 

I have a very successful photography business and studio with all the referrals I need from past clients, and have no business need to operate a website. I'm what you might call "old school" and at this late point in my career I've no need or desire to modernise. I also shoot film, not digital.

 

Guy, Paul, Marc and I and others are having a thoughtful discourse. That you want to bring it down to the level of hooligans laying their meat to measure on a table in the back room of a pub is truly of no consequence to me, I shall not stoop.

[patricks]

Marc, I couldn't agree more with you regarding "...if not for the lenses, Leica wouldn't still exist today.". I just curioius is that will hold true for the future as well.

 

Like it or not, Leica DMR will be compared and competed vis-a-vis Canon/Nikon. Even if a majority could be educated to understand that they are complimentary systems, I suspect most people don't want to bother and/or cannot afford multiple systems.

 

Lastly - "The body/sensor is a necessary evil required to get to the lenses" - I wish it was this easy. It used to be this easy. Without rising to the level of Brad's technical discussion (kudos for that, btw) the technology involved to accurately capture light onto a sensor and convert it into a faithful image of that reality (or your interpretation of that reality) is, needless to say, far more complex. And I don't see it getting any less complex as MP goes up on a given size sensor.

 

Regardless, I'm glad that pros are seeing the benefits of the DMR, both artistically and financially. Then we stand a chance of getting that elusive digital M. Personally I'm happy banging away on my little D200 on weekends and trips and I'm not 100% I could see the diffs between in the output between a D200 & 85/1.4D and the DMR & leica R 85/1.4.

[guy_mancuso]

Patrick you WILL see a Digital M coming in the fall , no question about it . You will also see a Digi 3 anounced at PMA a 4/3 the size of a CL and has 3 interchangeable lenses. The Digital M will have the same DMR sensor and crop but will have different electronics not Imacon this time but a german company , also the DM will be 1mm thicker than the current M7 and also a new lense will be introduced most likely a 15mm for the DM. Leica is on the move and after the release of the M than back to the R , i ws told 2years and the new R will be out. There has been a spark under leica's tail and that is all good news for ALL leica shooters and a huge plus for the industry. The DMR has been a success for leica there finiancials are looking better. i was told this small fact there will be 12 times the number of DM users than the DMR, that is a huge number for leica

[blakley]

Regarding Canon and shooting sports, I suppose it's true that if you want to shoot sports like everyone else, Canon is "a more appropriate tool". But I've been watching David Burnett since the campaign, and what he does with his Graflex is just outstanding, and it gives him a real competitive advantage that his work doesn't look like everyone else's. His portrait of Abramoff on the cover of Time was instantly recognizable as his work, and it was just head & shoulders above any other photography that week.

 

From this viewpoint, it might be a good idea to take the DMR to a basketball game, set it at a low ISO in single-shot mode, and see what you can do with it.

[doug herr]

Terence Mahoney wrote: "<I>That you want to bring it down to the level of hooligans laying their meat to measure on a table in the back room of a pub is truly of no consequence to me, I shall not stoop.</I>"

<p>

Terence... time for a reality check... it was just a question. I'm curious to see what kind of photography you're involved with where clients don't notice or aren't concerned about a difference in image quality.

[Brad_]

<I>Part of my issue is i am not a engineer that understand the hard tech side of things ,

like early mentioning the cooling of the CCD sensor and such. i find that somewhat

fasinating to a point , than at some point you need to just go shoot the damn thing.

</I><P>

 

Absolutely true. But on the other hand, it's probably good to try and learn/understand a

little bit, so you are not at the mercy of the marketeers and parrot their marketing hype

(16 bit CCD, special heat-wicking metals, etc). This is not unique to digital cameras, BTW.

<P>

 

Would be like me proclaiming that I get much better milage in my car, because the

gasoline I buy, from Standard Oil, contains, ta da... Techroline. Or that Wonderbread build

bodies 12 different ways...<P>

 

<I>Imacon is not inexperienced, nor a "Johnny-come- lately" when it comes to digital

electronics.</i><P>

 

Well, yes they kind of are, in a relative way, though that isn't a black eye. Imacon (founded

in 1995) was purchased by Glunz & Jensen (also Danish, a film processing mfgr) in around

2000 for $18.8M. At the time Imacon had 45 people between their operations in the US

and Denmark. <P>

 

The point that I was making is that a huge company like canon who has more than 26

thousand patents, probably has more clever and cost-effective methods available for

managing thermals in electronic equipment. I'm know Imacon's image collection/

processing expertise is outstanding, but as I said earlier, they probably do not have the

same level of expertise in cost-effective thermal management techniques on the

manufacturing side, which has been evolving over decades at canon. Translation: Yes,

they get good imaging performance, but it no doubt costs more.

[guy_mancuso]

Brad that is just too much damn work to know all that . LOL ,Just kidding. Hey i like engineers nice to learn that stuff from you guy's and valuable info to boot , so no i am not knocking that knowledge at all, it is good stuff to have in your head for sure. The more you know yada yada yada, whatever that commercial says

[terence_mahoney]

"I'm curious to see what kind of photography you're involved with where clients don't notice or aren't concerned about a difference in image quality."

 

I doubt seriously that anyone else took from what I said that my clients don't notice or aren't concerned with any difference in image quality. In fact most of my work for clients is done on 10x8 or 5x4 cut-film or 10-on rollfilm, so I daresay they're used to image quality of an indubitably high order. My point was simply that the purchase of any equipment which does not result in an improvement my clientele would notice and appreciate, would be for my own ego.

 

If there's nothing more you can add to this discussion aside from caustic insinuations against myself and my clients in an attempt to goad me into a catfight, you're wasting everyone's time.

[EricM]

One of the bussiest commercial shooters in my city doesn't have a site either. Never has business cards on him. A secratary, two assitants, two rep's with a handful of repeat agents...seems wierd, shooting for years but he doesn't need or want one.

 

Marc, D2x would disapoint you after the MKII. Comes on strong above 640.

[doug herr]

Terence - no insinuations intended, I don't see where you're finding them.

[guy_mancuso]

Terence I have to admit a statement like this is off the top .Because clearly you do not know what the DMR does good , bad or indifferent and to call folks elitist for switching systems is a little over the top don't you think. Personally I find that comment a little insulting. Just a reminder of what you said that others read into. Not trying to cause a holy war here but you have to admit the comment is a little off center IMHO

 

here is your comment as quoted

 

I believe in the world you will find the number of professionals who have "dumped" as it were their Canon or Nikon equipment for Leica R infintessimally small in number though large in elitist posturing. This in no way detracts from what the DMR does well, whatever that might be.

[vivek iyer]

Brad, Do you know for sure that Canon/Nikon/Leica dSLRs use or do not Peltier devices for active cooling of the sensors in their high end cameras?

 

Just because Canon is a large company and has over 20,000 patents does not automatically mean that they have done it.

 

Also, I would like to point out that the cost of liquid Helium to keep anything at 4 deg K is very substantial.

[fotografz]

Calm down lads. We're just exchanging info and opinions.

 

Point taken Brad. However, it would be wise to apply the same skepticism to the

theoretical hype you are bringing to the discussion concerning Canon. Read their

advertising BS concerning their flash systems & wide angle lenses for example ... none of

which is born out in actual application. Then there are all the pros that bought into the

hype about the 1Ds (including me), only to discover shadow noise even at ISO 200... at a

mere $7,500. for the body! Or the hordes of folks that bought 10Ds with its' back-

focussing issue. Etc., etc.

 

So, IMO, Canon can pull a zillion patents, but I'm only interested in the ones that actually

work when the thing is in your hand.

 

When I got the DMR, I did a toe-to-toe test using the same R lenses on the Leica and the

1DsMKII. It wasn't a matter of whether one was better than the other, (Canon versatility

wins) ... but would the DMR photos look different, and offer a different aesthetic in a print

(not on the internet, Patrick) ... plus could it provide even the slightest edge in dynamic

range over the Canon approach?

 

Doesn't matter how they got there, or whether the engineering solutions were hype or not

... If the DMR didn't offer something different in real world applications, it'd go back the

next day.

 

I still have it.

[EricM]

"Calm down lads."

 

I�m doing pretty good with my New Years Resolution, eh? Can hardly contain myself, but I am holding it in. "Good work Eric, good work..."

[guy_mancuso]

Same here if it did not offer something different in real applications than i would never had made that change from the Canon because i did give up some things the Canon can do the DMR can't like 8fps and such. Besides try switching systems I have done it 2 times in the last 4 years it is not as fun as it sounds

[Allen Herbert]

Some nice photos folks, i tried to read the writing, but it seemed like some exam paper.<div></div>

[Allen Herbert]

Hey, how cool is this little....<div></div>

[Allen Herbert]

You guys don't get out enough......<div></div>

[guy_mancuso]

The last one is very nice Albert good compostion

[Allen Herbert]

Say cheese...and, an extra big smile for Allen from you all! yes ,if you all try really hard you can all do it.<div></div>

[Allen Herbert]

Blue...from Fuji DSLR Pro...<div></div>

[Allen Herbert]

And....<div></div>

[owen w.]

Hey! Keep the W/NW threads to themselves. This techie thread has been really educational. Please do these often, or keep this one running. Please! There's no way I can play this game now, but I really like learning the details and hearing your real world experiences with the gear. Hopefully, when the DM comes out, I'll understand some of these details enough to participate then... THANKS, Guys!!!

[nels]

This is hilarious.

 

The thread begins with the subject of DMR, containing a thesis that smacks of buyer justification by primarily extolling the virtues of 16-bit capture over mere 12-bit. When someone points out the realities in an analytical manner, Canon's flash systems and wide angles are thrown into the conversation for good measure.

 

Why is it that instead of feeling content with what they have purchased and using it to focus on producing good images and sharing them, some owners of Leica equipment must attempt to trash other manufacturers (and it's usually Canon) to feel better about their purchase and themselves?

[vivek iyer]

Nels, You see Leica owners coming and extolling the virtues of the red dot on the EOS forum? Such trolls, man! They should be going over there to make W/NW threads, I would say.