Leni Riefenstahl, 'Five Lives' - my latest aquisition - a few comments

[vic_.]

<I>"I'm really not understanding what point you're trying to make."</I>

<P>It is sad to see that 6,000,000 Jews died in vain. The world is still a moral and ethical cesspool in many regions.

[Allen Herbert]

Cold Facts.

 

How many did Leni inspire to join the friends of humanity...thousands, or millions?

 

Leni was a Artist above such things. So were the

Scientists doing pleasant things with helpful folk.

 

Of course Leni being a photographer would not notice any unpleasent things..would she?

 

Some folk with deep pockets are never happy. They just want to keep filling them.

 

What the hell as humanity got to do with it.

[boris_chan1]

Frank: "My way is to argument by facts........."

 

Sadly, despite your claim, throughout our dialogue you have

misrepresented my statements, and, seemingly, feigned

ignorance of the possible implications of the imagery produced

by Riefenstahl in her later work. I welcome debate, but I see no

reason to hide my revulsion towards those who seek to sanctify

a woman who was a key Nazi propagandist, a personal friend,

and an admirer of Hitler. I'll ask the question again: Why is this

the only non-gear related thread you've contributed to? Many

photographers have been criticized in these forums, but you've

never felt the need to defend their honour. What makes

Riefenstahl so worthy of your defense?

[boris_chan1]

Vic, because the world is "still a cesspool" we shouldn't discuss

the past? Your point still evades me.

[frank_reidelbach]

Boris, reading my earlier statements will clear my motives litarally. What else do you want to know of my person? What will you do with this information? I will not repeat, because my person is not subject of this discussion, OK?

[boris_chan1]

"OK?"

 

If you don't want to clarify why the defense of Riefenstahl means

so much to you, then, yes, it will have to be OK. However, I don't

believe that it's inappropriate of me to be curious as to why the

two primary supporters of Riefenstahl in this thread have shown

no interest in any other thread pertaining to photographers rather

than equipment. I also believe that it's not inappropriate to be

curious as to why the person who ignited the thread, and then

simply stood aside during the debate, apparently also goes by

the name "Parakommando"?

[nesrani]

Well, I think we all know what Boris and Frank think about this by now.

[boris_chan1]

I'm sorry if you're finding this tedious Bob.

[frank_reidelbach]

"...to clarify why the defense of Riefenstahl means so much to you"

I have seen, and like very much some of her films, like "Piz Palü" "Das blaue Licht" and some of her photos. As I stated earlier I have seen all her films to judge from own experience, after reading critical articles about her person in German magazines like the SPIEGEL for more than 15 years... plus seeing countless TV-documentaries about her work and interviews. As a person far away of sympathy for *any* blimpish politics I have seen *nothing* which leads me to the decision she was a Nazi. Although even as a photographer she was blind on political eyes (like million other in the 30's) and of course was not "innocent"... but also not a criminal.

 

I doubt if Susan Sontag has spend so much time with the subject before issueing her article. Making oppinion from 2nd-hand without knowing the subject is never the best choice... you mentioned only Susan Sontags aticle as argument so I guess you dont know nothing more on that subject. If you ever had seen "Olympia" which was judged after the war in the USA as "one of the 10 best films ever made", show me the rassistic scenes. If not, end of debate.

 

The story goes that Hitler asks to cut-off the portraits and scenes with black American athlet Jesse Owens and Leni refused. You may believe this story or (probably) not - its without any relevance.. You can see the film, and Jesse Owens is in. Period.

 

I will go in for *any* other artist I like when I read stupid things about from ignorant and hypocrisy people, as long as I have time for.

 

I know: artist, successfull film maker, photograph AND strong independent woman is too much for certain people (men).

 

"...two primary supporters of Riefenstahl in this thread"

 

Probably you forget some other people here. The only reason why I'm still involved in this thread is you keep the challange.

 

"why the person who ignited the thread, and then simply stood aside during the debate, apparently also goes by the name "Parakommando"?

 

Maybe he is dread by Susan Sontag or you , I don't care. Ask him

 

Sorry, could it be that you see Nazis all around, Riefenstahl, me, the author of this thread? Where do you live? courtesy of a person like me makes you throw up?? Man, I pray you'll never meet a Nazi in person to learn about Nazi politeness.

[boris_chan1]

Frank: ".......I have seen all her films......critical articles about

her......for more than 15 years......countless

TV-documentaries......and interviews........I doubt if Susan Sontag

has spend so much time........."

 

I'm more than prepared to accept that Sontag, myself, and

probably most others have spent nowhere near the amount of

time that you have studying Riefenstahl.

 

".......you mentioned only........Sontag.......as argument so I guess

you don't know anything more......."

 

I mentioned Sontag only in response to the suggestion that I

was unique in seeing anything remotely dubious about the life

and work of Riefenstahl. There's a great deal of critical analysis

other than Sontag's out there.

 

""Olympia".......show the rassistic scenes. If not, end of debate."

 

The debate is about a life's work and motivations, not a single

film.

 

"I will go in for *any* other artist.......when I read stupid

things......from ignorant and hypocrisy people......."

 

Well that wasn't very "courtly". Do you believe that everyone who

has reservations about Riefenstahl is ignorant and hypocritical?

Or just me?

 

"I know........strong independent woman is too much for certain

people (men)."

 

So the primary motivation for being wary of Riefenstahl is

misogyny? Where does that leave Sontag? If you want to

champion the cause of strong, talented women in general, let

me suggest one of Riefenstahl's contemporaries, Lee Miller

(www.leemiller.co.uk). Miller produced work of the highest

standard (I particularly recommend that you check out her

photographs of the liberation of the Buchenwald and Dachau

concentration camps) but, until recently, was dismissed as little

more than an adornment to the men (such as Man Ray) in her

life.

 

".......could it be that you see Nazis all around........"

 

It could be, but I don't think so. I'm certainly not comfortable with

the current climate in which any critic of Israel is likely to be

accused of anti-semitism. However, I also think it's naive of

people to believe that the beliefs espoused by the Nazis have

simply evaporated.

 

"Where do you live?"

 

Asia

 

"Man, I pray you'll never meet a Nazi in person to learn about Nazi

politeness."

 

If it's OK with you, I'll cheerfully go without your prayers.

[frank_reidelbach]

"I particularly recommend that you check out her photographs of the liberation of the Buchenwald and Dachau concentration camps"

 

Boris, I've spending at least 20x the time reading about the Hitler regime in the last 20-25 years, prior to Riefenstahls films and not need your assistence. Last time someone instilled me so pushy like you about "right" books or films was a left-extreme agitator at college times back in the early 80's. I'm through. Witch hunting and attitude snoopery gone deeply "out" since then.. I'm happy that people assuming others need assistance in thinking are not in charge today, at least in Europe... The link you posted about Lee Miller... really nice photos.. but sorry not at relevance here..

[boris_chan1]

".......I've spending at least 20x reading about the Hitler regime in

the last 20-25 years......."

 

I believe you.

 

"........I'm happy that people assuming others need assistance in

thinking are not in charge today......in Europe........"

 

You seem to fundamentally misunderstand what debate is

about. For the last time, I believe in total freedom of expression.

You have the right to celebrate the life and work of Riefenstahl,

and I have the right to express revulsion at that same life and

work. If someone tried to physically stop you praising

Riefenstahl, then I'd do everything in my power to defend your

right of expression. I had hoped that my earlier reference to

David Irving would have made my attitude clear.

 

"Lee Miller......nice photos.. but sorry not at relevance........"

 

Miller is relevant as a direct contemporary of Riefenstahl. She is

also relevant as a talented woman whose reputation has

suffered as a result of misogyny - something you erroneously

implied may be behind my attitude to Riefenstahl.