Leni Riefenstahl, 'Five Lives' - my latest aquisition - a few comments

[billsr]

How unfortunate that we all cannot walk in Leni's shoes before we dare to question her political motivations. She was first and foremost a fine artist, photographer, film maker and environmentalist who spent the greatest part of her life trying to atone for her early alliances.

[albert knapp md]

Another Bob has an interesting point: do we tar al germans for

the crimes of the second world war? the reasonable answer is

of course not. Only leaders, enablers as well as perpetratrors of

homocidal/genocidal acts fit the bill. Leni was an enabler. Did

she ever bother to claim that she didn't know Jews were being

forced out socially and financially in the EARLY years of the

Reich as a result of the widely published Nuremburg laws of '33

and '35? Did she not read the mainstream newspapers (and I

don't count Der Sturmer or Der Angriff in this group) that villified

and dehumanized jews, gypsies and homosexuals day after

day? Did she not know of the re-militarization of Germany that

began in 1934 in direct violation of the Versailles treaty of 1919?

Did she not know of the early network of concentration camps

set up in Germany (as opposed to the death camps that came

later)? Afterall, Dachau was IN FULL SWING by the end of 1933

and Buchenwald, situated five miles from the epicenter of

Deutshe Kultur, Weimar, was operational soon after. Both of

these camps were not only well known and feared by the Volk

but equally publicized by the foreign press.That these events and

facts were obvious to her and that she responded by helping the

nazi regime by glorifying it and giving it artistic credibility will

always redound to her eternal shame. This is and will be the

ultimate judgement made by history despite all of her postwar

protests of innocence where never a single ADMISSION OF

COMPLICITY, GUILT OR REMORSE was ever heard. I am not

saying that Leni should have protested outright as this would

have written her ticket to one of the work/concentration camps

and wrecked her prized career, but she did not have to feed the

beast.

As to your assertions about her personally taking part in the

massacres etc..., I say that an enabler is just as guilty as the

thug who puuls the trigger. Leni was such an enabler.

As to the British Empire or the war in Iraq, yes, those in charge

as well as the enablers and the actual soldiers who carried out

atrocities should have to answer for them.

Leni never did.

[davidfink_photography]

You obviously have very strong feelings about this, and have expressed them forcefully and well.

 

However, did you miss Frank's post above, where he said:

 

"Yes it costs her much to say "sorry", but I think at least in her last years she could do it to some extend.. There is a 3 hours-documentary film about her work which ends with *at least* a word of regret and sorry. She also admitted that she was convinced to Hitler until the war. I think this is honest. It is well known that she cancelled her job as war reporter immediatly after she saw the cruels oft the Wehrmacht in Poland. Maybe it was her tragedy she was too weak, ambitious, opportunistic to opposit against Hitler."

 

I haven't personally seen the documentary that Frank refers to, but I certainly take him at his word that Riefenstahl offered at least a halting expression of regret.

 

An "enabler" is perhaps an apt term for her role before the war, and clearly she turned a blind eye to the signs of terror and brutality all around her.

 

But again, it seems to me that the real question is whether her photographic work fifty years on from the war should be completely villified and dismissed, as you insist, on the basis of her admittedly skewed moral compass during the Nazi time.

 

In psychological terms (not to paint too fine a diagnostic picture of this, mind you), one might argue that her environmental and anthropological activism in later years attests in part to her need to compensate behaviorally for earlier moral shortcomings. Sometimes reaction formation is the nearest a tortured soul can come to a full confessional reckoning.

[boris_chan1]

David: ".......one might argue that her environmental and

anthropological activism in later years attests in part to her need

to compensate behaviorally for earlier moral shortcomings."

 

And one might also argue, if one has even the most cursory

knowledge of German history, that her environmental and

anthropological concerns were actually a reflection of the fact

that she never shook off her Nazi past.

[nesrani]

I think "enabler" is a pretty vague term, which might apply to anyone from a member of the Nazi party to someone who didn't have the convictions/courage or were prepared to pay the very high price required to actively resist. As another example, we all accept and profit from a state of affairs that perpetuates appalling global economic and social inequalities, and in that sense we are all guilty of "enabling" that condition. If you spread it thin enough, no-one is innocent.

[frank_reidelbach]

There is no doubt on her guilt, but I wonder to which extend... I held her for a Nazi until I saw that documentation. Then I bought the set of her films (edited from a French-German culture TV channel called ARTE) and Triumph des Willens to make my own oppinion.

 

This changed my mind. For a political person, I would not have accepted such an "excuse" for beeing involved in the cruel-regime. I'm a political person but I found out she was none.

 

Yes, soon after Hitlers election saw the first concentration camps for political other otherway unwanted persons.. but Auschwitz 10 years later was another category. The Hitler regime 1936 was worldwide accepted.. particular conservatives were happy that Germany put all Communists into jail and would do the same if they could...

 

Leni came from a Film ecole around Arnold Fanck who was the first making dramatic nature and mountain films. A legendary film maker in the 1920's, but no friend with the Nazis. Ironically he was also banned in PostWar-Germany because his aesthetics was blamed to be fascistic... (even he saw no engagement in the "3rd Reich") As a PhD in sciences, he kept his living as a lumberman at age, died as a poor man in the 1970's in Postwar Germany..

 

Leni's Nuba pictures were blamed to be "fascistic aesthetics". Helmut Newton who as a jew emmigrated from the Nazis was ironically blamed the same. I wonder why not the old Greeks 700 before Christ were blamed the same. Indeed Leni's Olympia starts with fadings of Greek statues of heroes and modern athlets where you hardly can find out which is which...

 

IMHO, before blaming someones style as "fascistic" you firstly need a discussion what aestetics, beauty, art is all about...

 

And , sorry to say, I firmly believe that politics couldn't contribute to that matter in a substantial extend... so lets shut politics down for a while. Or, if you even want, better think about a *living* political leader and his kind of truth. Leni and Hitler are both dead. If there is such a thing as "danger coming from ideas" (which I personally doubt) they will come from a complete other side next time.

[davidfink_photography]

You wrote: "And one might also argue, if one has even the most cursory knowledge of German history, that her environmental and anthropological concerns were actually a reflection of the fact that she never shook off her Nazi past."

 

I'd like to believe that I have considerably more than a cursory knowledge of German history. I must confess, however, that the point of your remark about Riefenstahl eludes me. Are you suggesting that her activism in later life was inspired by some kind of sinister Nazi agenda? (That would seem absurd in the extreme.) Or are you suggesting that her lingering unacknowledged guilt from the Nazi associations of her youth may have motivated her later in life to become an activist for worthy causes. (On that we would be in agreement, as that was precisely the point of my speculations.)

[boris_chan1]

David, as you're claiming to have a solid grounding in German

history I'm baffled as to why you're seemingly unaware of the

Nazi preoccupation with environmentalism and anthropology. It

would be far from absurd to suggest that Reifenstahl's later

concerns contained sinister echoes.

[davidfink_photography]

Boris, the Nazi interests and agenda were manifestly *not* what we now refer to as "environmentalism" and "anthropology". Lebensraum and a twisted and racist social Darwinianism could hardly be further removed from current views on environmentalism and anthropology, as well as from the activities and causes that Riefenstahl was championing in the last decades of her life. To attempt to draw such a connection is specious at best.

[boris_chan1]

"Current views" on environmentalism and anthropology cover a

pretty wide base, and not all of those views are divergent from

those held by the Nazis. I see nothing in the later work and

concerns of Reifenstahl that would make me feel entirely

comfortable as to her motivations.

[davidfink_photography]

"'Current views' on environmentalism and anthropology cover a pretty wide base"

 

Granted.

 

"and not all of those views are divergent from those held by the Nazis."

 

None within the scope of legitimate scholarship. Certainly there are fringe kooks and extremists, but without any credibility or academic status.

 

"I see nothing in the later work and concerns of Reifenstahl that would make me feel entirely comfortable as to her motivations."

 

Well, you're certainly entitled to your own suspicions and reactions. I've never seen or heard any evidence to support your view, nor read any critiques that share it. But I can't persuade you toward a differing perspective, because (as the old saw has it) it's difficult to prove a negative.

 

Interesting discussion, to be sure. Thanks for raising the issues that you did.

 

Best wishes,

David

[boris_chan1]

David, as I believe in freedom of expression, I see no reason to

hold a narrow view of what constitutes "legitimate scholarship".

As a related example, I'm uncomfortable with the hounding of

David Irving - I think it makes no sense to engage him

emotionally rather than rationally.

 

As to the fact that you've never read any critiques that share my

reservations regarding Riefenstahl's later work, I'm surprised.

There's been no shortage of critical debate regarding the Nuba

images.

[davidfink_photography]

"as I believe in freedom of expression, I see no reason to hold a narrow view of what constitutes 'legitimate scholarship'".

 

On this you are in agreement (ironically) with Hitler, who felt free to populate German university faculties with "scholars" whose ideas would have had no chance to find legitimacy in the rigorous mainstream of academia.

 

Importantly, professional standards in the sciences and humanities recognize that freedom of expression must operate also within a process of scholarly review, so that unsubstantiated and specious ideas can be differentiated from ideas based on evidence. That's why there are, for example, refereed journals in most professional fields.

 

"As a related example, I'm uncomfortable with the hounding of David Irving - I think it makes no sense to engage him emotionally rather than rationally."

 

I agree with you on this. Emotional hounding is no substitute for rational evaluation. Interestingly, in his recent two-volume Hitler biography (which I am just finishing), Ian Kershaw cites Irving on a number of points, and does so with fairness and objectivity.

 

"There's been no shortage of critical debate regarding the Nuba images."

 

Yes, of course there are many critiques of Riefenstahl's work (as there should always be for art), but I am unfamiliar with any that mirror your peculiar concern that the Nuba images somehow were part of Riefenstahl's intended mission to further a sinister Nazi agenda. Could you point me to some references that articulate that specific viewpoint?

[frank_reidelbach]

Boris,

 

as far as I know, Hitler and the typical Nazi pack never like black people very much... if you foist Leni to be a Nazi during her late years you have to explain her concern in "black Untermenschen" (as in the Nazi terminology) expressis verbis...

 

And I'm a bit more tense how you bring socialdarwnism which leads to Auschwitz together with anthroplogical science, which is at least in the last 100 years based on respectfull observing of the subject populations. And environmental engagement has nothing to do with "Mehr Lebensraum". Please speak more clearly: If you take this honest, its more than ridiculous - it's infame against a big number of people engaged in this matter...

 

BTW, even in Leni's "Triumph des Willens" there is no asking to kill or abuse jews, chase away people off their home etc.. there was a hope for freedom and peace.

 

Leni R. was asked about her motives, and I found no argument against it. As for the Nuba: she liked to photograph their beauty and strength, their unaltered nature (=of course, afinity to her work with Olympic athletes, and -Greek/Roman- "classic" beautyness). The environmentalistic engagement refers to her aquanautic career. As most people know increasing water pollution leads coral reefs to die all over the world and in some idealistic manner she wanted to do something against it.

 

Thanks,

<Frank

[Allen Herbert]

Leni Riefenstahl

 

Just a young(so called) talented artist doing a bit of propaganda for the government of the day.

 

Hey, what a career she could have had if they had stayed in power. Alas it was not to be.

 

I just don't understand why her name gives me a funny taste in my mouth.

 

Silly really, i suppose. Sorry.

[boris_chan1]

David: ".......you are in agreement......with Hitler........"

 

Thanks for this considered response. If you want to drag things

into the gutter I'll cheerfully slither down and join you.

 

".......your peculiar concern that the Nuba images somehow were

part of Riefenstahl's intended mission to further a sinister Nazi

agenda. Could you point me to some references.........."

 

I think you're being disingenuous. On the one hand you're

passing yourself off as a scholar of modern German history, on

the other you're telling me that you've never come across any

questioning references to Riefenstahl's Nuba work - it just

doesn't add up. You never came across the Sontag reference to

the Nuba work being the final part of Riefenstahl's "triptych of

fascist visuals" (part one being her appearances in Franck's

"mountain films", I'll let you guess part two)? You'd struggle to

find a single obituary that didn't quote this. I disagree with a great

deal of Sontag's output, but on this I believe she's right on the

mark.

 

I've just glanced at your history of posting here. Other than this

thread, every single one of your contributions is gear related.

Why is defending the honour of Leni so important to you?

[boris_chan1]

Frank: ".......Hitler......never like black people....."

 

Thank you for your remarkable insight.

 

".......I'm a bit more tense how you bring socialdarwnism........"

 

I never did. Pay more attention.

 

"Please speak more clearly: If you take this honest, its more than

ridiculous - it's infame......."

 

I will if you will.

 

"........there is no asking to kill or abuse jews....."

 

How terribly moderate.

 

"increasing water pollution leads coral reefs to die........in some

idealistic manner she wanted to do something against it."

 

I agee, the woman was a saint and an ecovisionary.

[davidfink_photography]

"Thanks for this considered response. If you want to drag things into the gutter I'll cheerfully slither down and join you."

 

Well, I'm afraid you'll have to slither alone, Boris. Civility, good humor, and rational discourse is much my preference. :-)

 

By the way, you chose not to respond to the substantive point I was making (and yes it was considered) regarding freedom of expression in the context of academic legitimacy, an important area in which Hitler, as I assume you know, was a very destructive force. I meant nothing personal about you; sorry if the parallel I drew with your earlier point made you defensive. Again, nothing personal was intended.

 

"I think you're being disingenuous."

 

Well, that is a bit unkind, I must say. My only defense is to assure you that I have no need to feign ignorance, for I never seem to lack in that attribute!

 

"On the one hand you're passing yourself off as a scholar of modern German history"

 

Hardly! All I said was that I like to believe that I have considerably more than a "cursory" (your word) understanding of German history. A long way from qualifying as a scholar. History is not my professional field, though it is a personal interest of long standing.

 

"You never came across the Sontag reference to the Nuba work being the final part of Riefenstahl's 'triptych of fascist visuals'...?...I disagree with a great deal of Sontag's output, but on this I believe she's right on the mark."

 

You're refering to the review of the Nuba work which Sontag wrote in 1975, more than a quarter century ago?

 

Here's a brief evaluation of that review's lingering impact on Riefenstahl's reputation:

http://www.dasblauelicht.net/new_page_42.htm

 

Actually, I may be somewhat the opposite of you, in that I generally appreciate and agree with Susan Sontag, but on this I think she may have missed the mark badly. I guess, given our opposing takes on Riefenstahl, it is no surprise that you and I would assess that review differently. Thanks for reminding me of it, because (as you know) it certainly was an influential critique of Riefenstahl at the time, and it helps me to understand somewhat better how you've come to your opinions.

 

 

"Why is defending the honour of Leni so important to you?"

 

Points of controversy often draw my interest. The Riefenstahl matter is particularly interesting, I suppose, because it's such an iconic illustration of the collision of political and artistic values. Don't know if you're in the U.S., but in this election year there are inevitably echoes of that collision that seep in around the edges of campaign rhetoric, usually couched in terms like "social values" and the implied admonition that artists conform to some group's definition of "correct" values. Perhaps that climate makes me more sensitive than usual to attacks on art based on the presumed political agendas of artists. On the other hand, maybe it's just that I like the Riefenstahl photos, and choose to evaluate her motives psychologically rather than politically.

 

One might also inquire of you why imputing sinister motives to Riefenstahl's photography is so important? Of course you have every right to your views, just as I have the right to remain unconvinced. As I said earlier, it *is* an interesting discussion, and I thank you for raising the points that you have.

[boris_chan1]

David: ".......you chose not to respond to the substantive

point.....regarding freedom of expression in the context of

academic legitimacy......"

 

I didn't (and don't) believe your point was substantive, it seemed

to merely serve the purpose of your "ironic" highlighting of me

being in "agreement with Hitler".

 

"Thanks for reminding me of it..........it certainly was an influential

critique........it helps me to understand somewhat better how

you've come to your opinions."

 

I still feel that you're being disingenuous. Judging by your

obvious interest in Riefenstahl it seems inconceivable that

Sontag's, and others, comments had merely slipped your mind.

Just by googling the words "riefenstahl" and "nuba" you'll get a

staggering number of hits, many of which relate to questioning

her motivations. Additionally, I have no idea how the Sontag

reference helps you to "understand better" how I came to my own

conclusions.

 

".........maybe it's just that I like the Riefenstahl photos, and

choose to evaluate her motives psychologically rather than

politically."

 

I'm not sure how you can separate the psychological from the

political.

 

"One might also inquire of you why imputing sinister motives to

Riefenstahl's photography is so important?"

 

At a time when a great deal of effort seems to be being made to

rehabilitate the reputation of Reifenstahl I feel it's important to

provide a reasoned counterbalance. If you were to ask me the

straightforward question: Do you think Leni Riefenstahl was a

lifelong Nazi? My response would be: I have no idea, though

there certainly seems to be a fair amount of evidence to suggest

that that may well have been the case. However, I believe it's just

as likely that she was nothing more than an amoral chancer,

who would have had no qualms about serving any powerful

figure or regime willing to grant her favors.

[frank_reidelbach]

Boris, if you think cynism a last argument in political discussion, you are wrong.

 

Sorry, who the hell is Susan Sontag? Has she made films, photos, art, any subjects to that matter? All I know is she is a talented writer who critizises people. As I said early in this thread, oppinion is cheap nowadays.. Probably she knows a lot about politics and nothing about art, as she disorganized these two..

 

Yes of course I saw her famous article cited everywhere, remember the discussion back in the 80's, yet hadn't the pleasure to find it in copy. Hopefully at least all of her believers have read it. She must be a kind of goddess for them. It's nice for them have structured the world so simple. Please tell me, what is an article compared to a life work of an artist?

[frank_reidelbach]

A last word: Sontag and you, Boris, always try to look into someones brain to find out the motives and evaluate them.. if not fine with them, call it "Nazi". This is not the way in a country free of oppinion. You cannot look into brains, even if you are psychologists. people don't like that, it's uncourtly. Secondly it's arrogant to judge on a basis of own values, and that makes people angry. They don't are angry because of your oppinion, or you are right and they are wrong. They get angry about this kind of judging arrogance. Other people may have other values, their own, so learn to be more respectfull...

 

You think you have reached some point when you prove, or at least "have a fair amount of evidence(?)" someone is a Nazi. Nope. Did you ever had had the plearure to meet a "Nazi" who also thinks Hitler was a criminal? There were differences in the Nazi movement as well as in thinking,in fact some were near to the Communists..

 

At last, there is - at least for artists - no conviction for oppinion. What you do is near to witch hunting.. Remember the Catholic inquisition did its judgement in the same way, plus had the power to burn human beeings...

 

If a person insults another into the face, slat, or kill him, then you can condemn this person with pleasure. If he looks like a Nazi-slatter you can condemn him harder, if you have evidence he will again hurt people, because society cannot tolerate a behavior harming defenceless people for political reasons. You can condemn people giving money to that pack. Condemn them harder instead nuzzleling into brains. If you try to condemn persons for their ideas you lost freedom completely. This of course has to apply for people like Riefenstahl as well.

 

Thats why I got in there, not beause I like her motivation, ambition, or opportunism... I don't like it, as I stated early in this thread. But I like her because she was a strong women, and most for her beautiful pictures and films... yes there is a good place to bring pictures of defaulted humans of the Sudan, of hungry people, killed people, and so on: in the newspaper. Leni's pictures doesn't show this kind of things because she didn't like to picture it, right. But they show something equally, perhaps even more important at least for themself: These people are not miserable only.. but have PRIDE, ATTITUDE, and BEAUTY :-)

[boris_chan1]

Frank: ".........who the hell is Susan Sontag?.........She must be a

kind of goddess........"

 

Well, Sontag isn't a goddess to me. I have to say though Frank,

I'm getting the impression that the beautiful Leni is something of

a goddess to you.......

[boris_chan1]

Frank: ".......if not fine with them, call it a "Nazi"."

 

At no stage have I called Riefenstahl a Nazi. I clearly stated that I

didn't know whether she was a Nazi.

 

"This is not the way in a country of free opinion."

 

I've also stated my belief in freedom of expression.

 

"........learn to be more respectfull........"

 

Of you? Of Leni? If you continue to misrepresent my comments

you're unlikely to win my respect.

 

"If you try to condemn persons for their ideas you lost freedom

completely."

 

You have a very strange concept of freedom.

[frank_reidelbach]

"You have a very strange concept of freedom."

 

Again, Boris, this is unpolite. Please notice that people different from you have diferent values. Either you want to debate our "concepts of Freedom" (maybe it differs...) then at least you have not to say its strange... ;-) Instead of that, you can say "This and this sounds strange to me, because of..." This needs some more work but at least show some respect to that human you make an attempt to discuss with :-)

 

"I'm getting the impression that the beautiful Leni is something of a goddess to you......."

 

Boris, friend, you are responsible for your impressions, not me. Other people have read what I don't like on her, why not you?? Please be so kind provide me with Susan Sontags article fmechelh at web dot de, then we can discuss her critic of R. in detail. But what will influence this discussion is my attitude to esteem productive (i.e. artistic) work more than intellectual banter (note I'm not saying jerking here ;-)and critizism about it.

[boris_chan1]

Frank, if you don't understand the concept of freedom of speech

then it's unlikely that I can help you with that. Regarding your

request for me to provide you with "Sontag's article", well, I think

you're probably a big enough boy to track that down yourself.