Leni Riefenstahl, 'Five Lives' - my latest aquisition - a few comments

[frank_reidelbach]

Boris, please explain what "freedom of speech" has to do with your judging others oppinion as strange, "has not understand", "you're being disingenuous", "good evidence to be a Nazi" and so on. Whoever continues such unpolite words may have "free speech" indeed but will soon stand alone to discuss something...

 

As far as S.Sontag is concerned (BTW I read she is also not very polite a person ;-) her findings about Riefenstahl have not been proved true in general debate, so one must not know it like a bible, and it can pass as far as I'm concerned.

 

But please inform me if she had maked enjoyable movie or photos.. Neither my or your values should be issues on this discussion but art, and unfortunately we miss from your side some substance what (political-correct, non-fascistic ;-) art should be. I.e. is it allowed in your worthy oppionion to display muscular athletes, beautiful or naked bodies, pride..? is it fascistic? Or only if people like R. show it?

 

;-)

[nesrani]

"Sorry, who the hell is Susan Sontag? Has she made films, photos, art, any subjects to that matter? All I know is she is a talented writer who critizises people. As I said early in this thread, oppinion is cheap nowadays.. Probably she knows a lot about politics and nothing about art, as she disorganized these two..

 

Yes of course I saw her famous article cited everywhere, remember the discussion back in the 80's, yet hadn't the pleasure to find it in copy. Hopefully at least all of her believers have read it. She must be a kind of goddess for them. It's nice for them have structured the world so simple. Please tell me, what is an article compared to a life work of an artist?"

 

Frank - Sontag is one of the most intelligent and acute critics of contemporary culture on the scene. Her work should be required reading for anyone interested in photography, representation and media in the widest sense. Apparently she has also made at least one film, but her arguments deserve discussion on their merits alone.

[boris_chan1]

Frank: ".......is it allowed in your worthy oppinion to display

muscular athletes, beautiful or naked bodies, pride..?"

 

Yes, of course. How many times do I have to state that I believe

in freedom of expression? My earlier reference to Irving was

intended to make crystal clear that I'm not a big fan of

censorship.

 

"........is it fascistic?"

 

It can be.

 

"Or only if people like R show it?"

 

Let the people decide.......

 

Bob, seldom have I been so happy to hear a relatively sane

voice. You don't know of any other Bob's who'd like to join in do

you?

[davidfink_photography]

"At a time when a great deal of effort seems to be being made to rehabilitate the reputation of Reifenstahl I feel it's important to provide a reasoned counterbalance."

 

Fair enough, and thanks for clarifying your intent. My take is that the need for "counterbalance" continues to be in the opposite direction, as efforts to villify Riefenstahl and discredit her work have been vigorous and ongoing for more than half a century.

 

By the way, if you haven't read it, this essay assesses condemnations of Riefenstahl, and argues that her detractors (Sontag included) fail to appreciate the anti-feminist dynamics at work both in the circumstances of Riefenstahl's seduction by Nazi ideology and in the failure of her later critics to grant her the same presumption of change as that accorded to many male artists of the Nazi time. It's good reading:

 

http://www.powernet.net/%7Ehflippo/cinema/tiefland.html

[frank_reidelbach]

Bob, imagine, even in Germany we heard of Susan Sontag (must have forgotten the ironic tags)... and in some (if not most) issues, I'm close to her... but in this matter she overshot helpless. this was quite clear 25 years ago, and even more clear today, when you have 25% fascists if you take her arguments against the sport, body and wellness cult honest.. mens sana in corpore sane (not sure what it is in english): this Roman wisdom sounds a lot more dingy 25 years ago than today... at least it's not enough to say her name as a last argument.

 

Boris "Let the people decide......."

Not bad an approach. Leni made good money with her Nuba books, Susan with hers...So why the discussion about hidden nazism which Sontag has started?

 

The true question to art is, you like it or not? Beauty, Art, or not?

 

It doesn't help you much in that decision to ask an artist what was his intention. Or if you do, you have to take his answers honest, and in good-will. In this matter Sontag failed. Her intension was to execute Riefenstahl in public. If you mistrust someones honesty in public you are in to bring the proof. She failed.

[boris_chan1]

One final comment (I'll not have access to the internet for the next

week or so) - Riefenstahl obviously had ability as a filmmaker,

although what she produced looks a great deal closer to

advertising than art. However, her later work as a photographer

is utterly without distinction. If you took away the whiff of fascist

glamor that surrounded her, the Nuba pictures would have sunk

without trace.

 

ps Frank, before you chip in with another dodgy elegy regarding

the grace and beauty that Riefenstahl captured, and what a loss

it would be if we hadn't seen the loveley Leni's images, the world

would still have the George Rodger pictures.

[vic_.]

What happened was awful, no matter who did it. And what's more awful is that it continues to happen in many parts of the world. We've learned nothing from history, except to make more effective tools of destruction and death. I'm still waiting for civilization to reach our planet.

[boris_chan1]

Sitting at the airport, reading again through this thread. I click on

the original poster's name, look at his profile, go to the

homepage of his website. The first thing I read: "Karim D.

Ghantous......AKA Parakommando"...............

[nesrani]

"The true question to art is, you like it or not? Beauty, Art, or not?"

 

I think this is a pretty reductive view of art.

 

One of the functions of criticism is to reveal the underlying ideology of an artist (which by definition he/she is likely to be unaware of) and how and to what extent that is evident in their work. It's not a matter of public execution, but elucidation.

[frank_reidelbach]

"One of the functions of criticism is to reveal the underlying ideology of an artist "

 

One has to differ guesswork and facts. I doubt if one can success doing that kind of suggestions if you only know, or even want to know, a part of the strory, or that it has any value for the artist itself, for you, or other artists.

 

Thats where we disagree. If one don't like Leni's (or any other artists) pictures or films, findit chintzy or other, no further reason is needed.

[Allen Herbert]

I wonder, Lena. I wonder.

 

After a hard day photographing those sweaty male athletics, then partying with the great and good.......

 

Did you notice that little boy lying in the road, the one with blood seeping from a bullet hole in his head. Did you notice him? I wonder.

 

He was only 9 years old; he was trying to defend his mother and sister with his fists from abuse.

 

Did you notice Lena? You being a documentary photographer.

[Allen Herbert]

Of course Lena, your publist knows how to turn a coin. Your family are more than happy to suck up the proceeds.

 

All publicity, is good publicity....isn't it. Shame about the little boys...never mind, things happen.

[vic_.]

<I>Allen Herbert: "Did you notice that little boy lying in the road, the one with blood seeping from a bullet hole in his head. Did you notice him? I wonder."</I>

<P>This observation could be from any year in the last 100+ years. Bosnia, Rwanda, the Dani, East Timor, Congo, South Africa, Rhodesia, etc. And today? Sudan, among others. It's not limited to Western Europe, but then who cares, because those people don't really count in the grand scheme.

[frank_reidelbach]

These people *may* count if (in case of the Sudan) enough European and American people have known about the Nuba-tribe. If you know nothing about them, you don't care about their fate... this together with actual reporting of the miserables of civil war (which must not document the same photographer) *may* help... you cannot blame the reporter if not.. and worst case at least you have it's documented to blame who refuses to help...

[boris_chan1]

Karim, why not come back to this thread and give a response to

the points raised? As sinister echoes have been a theme of the

thread maybe you could clarify why you also go by the name of

Parakommando........

[vic_.]

People can go on recrucifying Ms. Riefenstahl till kingdom come, but the question still stands: "What has mankind learned from all this?"

<P>If you look at present day Israel, the country that should have learned the most from this, you see a stratification of society that is very ugly. The Askenazy (hailing from Europe) Jews consider themselves to be the "Master Race" amongst Jews, and look down upon the Sephardic (from North Africa), and they both look down on the Falasha (African Jew). Power is in the hands of the Ashkenazy, and they are scared that the Sephardic, who reproduce at a higher rate, will take over. Also, recent Russian immigrants have returned to Russia, and prefer being there to the indignities they face in Israel.

<P>No one is exempt from this sort of thinking. This sort of nonsense takes place in every society on the planet, so to keep on villifying the Nazis serves no purpose, unless we have learned from the lessons of history. In my own country of origin people can get away with murder, if they kill the lower class people.

<P>Look at yourself. What are you doing to make the world a better place for people who don't look like you?

[boris_chan1]

Vic, I'd settle for just the one crucifixion of the lovely Leni. Rather

than defending the reputation of Riefenstahl shouldn't you be

spending your time more constructively beating beggars to

death? Or have you grown out of that?

[vic_.]

Boris, here's the first one. Enjoy. Then contemplate the hypocrisy that still rules the world.

 

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=005x76

[vic_.]

Boris, here's another:

 

The editorial in the Wall Street Journal claims that the Chinese have killed (or aborted) 300,000,000 female infants (or foetuses) during the one-child-per-family policy. China now has 6 young men for every 5 young women. 300 million dead girls. Does anyone care? We're too busy discussing the merits of Leni, as if it makes a hill of difference.

[boris_chan1]

"Does anyone care?" Yes Vic, I think people do care, including

those of us who, from time to time, show hypocrisy. I'm really not

understanding what point you're trying to make.

[Allen Herbert]

Lovely Leni claimed she was a documentry photographer.

 

there's the stain.

 

A stain on those who call themselves photographers.

[frank_reidelbach]

..curious, why are the film, photograph and art students studying her pictures, masters like Helmut Newton (who as a jew escaped from the Nazi) never speaking about "stain"?

 

Leni does her best to inform people in rich Europe and America about the Nuba tribe in Sudan. Maybe she wasn't a newspaper photographer... But some people may have seen her pictures will engage against civil war in Sudan. Just curious, what did YOU do for the Sudan people which qualifies your so-harsh ethical rating of this dead person???

[boris_chan1]

Frank, you need to get out there and engage with some of those

students who are studying the life and work of Riefenstahl. They

certainly haven't all come to the conclusion that she was simply

a misunderstood environmentalist and philanthropist as you

seem to imagine.

 

Questioning what Allan, or anybody else, has done for the

Sudanese people is an utter irrelevancy to the debate regarding

the motivations of Riefenstahl. I have a question for you though:

Why, like David Fink, is this the only non-gear related thread

you've ever shown an interest in? I'll be honest, I find your

contribution here really disturbing. Am I saying I think you are a

supporter of Riefenstahl because of Nazi sympathies? No, just

as with Riefenstahl I haven't met you in person, so I don't know.

But your demeanour while discussing a key Nazi propagandist,

and your insistence on "courtliness", certainly gives me pause

for thought and an overwhelming feeling of being soiled by your

presence.

[frank_reidelbach]

Boris, when you feel "soiled" from a virtual presence of a person here who disagrees to you but gave you no cause for argue, I feel very sorry for you but cannot help. Bad feelings are present for a certain reason, and you should do something to find it. My way is to argument by facts, not to exchange feelings or emotions good or bad, because when discuss facts this is no help, but only leads to more argue. I wonder why you challenge my motives to go in that discussion. Different from you, I declared it in an earlier statemnt. Every person who is able to read can find it. Anyway, as a person who likes freedom of expression like you, I feel free to discuss what topics *I* like. If you feel my considerations worthless, you are free to express this, and I am free to doubt you have fully read or understand it. So what?

[frank_reidelbach]

Boris, for studying film you need to see and *then* discuss it. discussing the author first is wrong the way. If my contributions are annoying you, maybe Patric Dahlén's in the last thread will be more helpful to understand how to subject film.