thinking of buying a Leica

Afternoon all,

 

Like many I've been moving back to film for a lot of things. While I just added a new computer and am about to update Photoshop I have also gotten out my enlargers and other darkroom gear and begun setting up for B&W work as well. I have always been a Nikon shooter and will remain so but have come down with a strong urge to get a Leica. The idea is to find one body and a single lens, likely a 35 or 50mm and use that alongside an slr for things I find along the way. I travel through quite a bit of countryside and am intrigued by abandoned buildings and vehicles, empty old gas stations, an old firetruck sitting in the woods, it could be anything. I'd like to add a camera that will force me to move more deliberately. I've always wanted a Leica and I think it is time. I'd like something a little older ie. less expensive but it needs to be straightforward in use. I don't want a camera that gets in the way. I see KEH has a few that appear to be in decent shape and reasonable in cost. Glass is another question though as it all seems quite pricey. It looks like I can get a good setup for somewhere around $1k if I work at it. Suggestions? Thanks.

 

Rick H.

I just went through the same thing and finally backed out because Leica's have poor eye relief for someone that wears glasses. However you can buy a Leica body for $1000.00 easy enough without a meter but even a beater M6 will most likely stretch that out a couple more hundred. Voightlander glass is where most budget shoppers wind up and they are not actually budget at all. Repairs are available on the Leica's which is cool. What is not cool is the cost of it.

 

Given your choice of subjects I would think a Hasselblad would be more fun to shoot. Cool camera and the negative has potential. I do not know how much they cost.

Actually Ross I have a nice RB67 with a few lenses. Problem is size and bulk at certain times when I prefer smaller and lighter. KEH had several available and I looked at some III's and one or two others but worry about service. Although I have a pair of 1890's era pocket watches and there is no problem servicing and repairing those I am uncertain of repair on older Leica bodies.

 

Rick H.

Well I really have little knowledge of Leica's really. The older thread mount camera's are completely foreign to me. However http://www.yyecamera.com/ will service them I believe and he has a solid reputation. I figure the RB67 will do anything the Hasselblad will do so forget I mentioned that one.

M4-P & a 35mm f2 Konica lens? - It requires a handheld meter and equals the M6 internally otherwise. - M2s might be cheaper. The Konica lens hood blocks a corner of the VF frameline. - To avoid such look at 35mm Summicrons or the old spherical Summilux.

LTM Leicas require external VFs for 35mm lens usage and trimming the film leader + knob winding, so those might start "getting into your way". But they are nice to shoot with 50mm lenses and weigh less.

Any Leica M or LTM (threadmount) camera can be serviced, going right back to the original models from the 1920s and 30s. There's a wider choice if you don't need a build-in meter, or can embrace the quirks of the LTM cameras. The LTMs (except the IIIg, which tends to be expensive) only have built-in 50mm viewfinders, with no framelines or parallax correction, but accessory finders are available. The M3 doesn't have 35mm framelines, but the M2 and later cameras do. You might look at an M2 (probably the cheapest M) if you can do without the meter, with a Leica (Leitz) lens from the same period, or a modern Voigtlander lens.

My son texted me this morning and he has a Leica CL that he wants to give to me. So when it shows up I will give it a try. My son's friend buy's camera's in estate quantities and sells them somehow and this was one of the camera's and it's filtering over to me. My son and his friends are film guys and it makes the hobby a bit more fun having somebody with a similar interest. The Leica was in a lot of 20+ camera's that he bought from an estate sale. I hope it works and I hope it has a lens. If it does not have a lens then I hope it does not work as I do not want to purchase a Leica lens for an old dead system camera.

Rick, if it must be Leica, your options are between the screwmounts and the Ms. Both can be serviced by several skilled people. Screwmount bodies and lenses are cheaper, but their viewfinders are often more challenging (smaller, separate VF ad RF windows etc). The M finders are generally more user-friendly. I like both - the screwmounts are smaller and offer collapsible lenses that make for a very small and light outfit. The Ms are superbly designed and made cameras, and my favorites are M3, M5 and M2. You should be able to get a less popular (and therefore cheaper) M, such as M4 or M5, along with an older Leica lens (either M-mount or screwmount lens adapted to M-mount) for under $1000. Ultimately it will depend on whether primo Leica glass (like a late generation Summicron/Summilux) is more important to you than the ergonomics of the body - if the latter is less important, you could drop cash on a Leica lens and wed it to a cheap-ish M-mount body eg Bessa. Alternatively you could marry an M body to an adapted screwmount lens.

 

On the other hand, if it doesn't have to be Leica and you're after a lightweight, portable 135 format rangefinder camera, there are many options that will deliver great results at a (much) lower cost than Leica - i.e. fixed-lens RFs from many manufacturers eg Konica IIIA, Olympus 35RC/35RD/35SP, Minolta HiMatics etc.

 

Sorry for the ramble, but there are so many options that will be dictated by your needs, style of shooting and flexibility on the budget. :)

Rossb, if you're lucky the CL will have the excellent 40mm lens, for which it has matching framelines (there are no 35mm framelines on this camera), and the meter will be working (failure is apparently quite common and servicing it isn't cheap). Also check out this link for battery options: http://shardsofphotography.blogspot.co.uk/2006/03/batteries-for-your-leica-cl.html

...Incidentally, you won't be tied to a dead system if you buy Leica lenses for the CL - it has a conventional M mount. Only the 40mm lens is designed solely for the CL (it will work on other Leicas, but the mainstream M cameras lack exactly matching framelines). The CL also has 50mm and 90mm framelines, so if you bought a 50 you could upgrade the body later and keep the lens.

If you want to check out what I think are the practical extremes of a Leica, I'd go for an M4 as the best overall film body - it was the best of handmade craftsmanship and reliability due to the fit and finish of metal internal parts....no meter, but you could either add one, use a handheld, or sunny 16. My next choice in the M line would be an M2, which was designed to be the lower cost version of the M3, but in the end it was more popular with photojournalists, primarily due to the viewfinder, which included lines for 35, 50 & 90mm lenses (as did the later M4, which also had lines for 135mm)...but it is a little trickier to load than the M4. After over 40 years of using M bodies, I took a plunge in the older screwmount bodies with a beater iiF, which I sent to Youxin Ye for a CLA, and now have a new love. What really appealed to me was the rangefinder, which acts like a 1.5x diopter, making focusing extremely accurate for my weary eyes. Takes a little practice to load, but what a gem. Also, FWIW, older screwmount lenses can be used on M bodies with little metal adapter rings...and again, I've fallen in love with some of the much less expensive screwmount lenses by Leica, Canon and Voigtlander...and can switch them among my various bodies. Quick note on the Leica M6....much newer, but still aging...has built in meter (electronics age and can become disfunctional - Leica no longer services M6 metering). I owned one for 3 years, but sold it and reverted to my M4. It has lots of adherents, but I'm not one of them. Whatever you decide, there is a wide choice of lenses out there ranging from near-dirt cheap (I'm not talking about FSU lenses - which don't always focus properly on Leicas) to astronomically high. All said and done you should be able to put together a really nice kit by taking your time well within your budget.

...Incidentally, you won't be tied to a dead system if you buy Leica lenses for the CL - it has a conventional M mount. Only the 40mm lens is designed solely for the CL (it will work on other Leicas, but the mainstream M cameras lack exactly matching framelines). The CL also has 50mm and 90mm framelines, so if you bought a 50 you could upgrade the body later and keep the lens.

 

Apparently the camera is a basket case and it's not coming my way. Kind of relieved that I do not have to toss money at it.

Quick note on the Leica M6....much newer, but still aging...has built in meter (electronics age and can become disfunctional - Leica no longer services M6 metering).

If the 2 LED meter in the M6 (Classic) is beyond fixing, don't they just shove in the more recent 3 LED meter? The M6 is the sweet spot in the M line for me because it has a meter and the modern loading and crank rewind systems, and only the M2 and M3 are substantially cheaper. The M4 (which I can see the attraction of!) usually goes for more than the M6, and the later M4-P and M4-2 for not much less than the M6. Everything later than the M6 is more expensive again. But I'd happily shoot with any of them.

I've heard mixed stories how they address the meter issue...I do know they don't repair the in-place electronics, not certain about switching out.

If you want the experience of using a Leica, with lower cost, find a Zorki or early FED.

 

These are Leica copies, which will have similar look and feel, and loading method.

(Though lower quality.) Many people seem to say good things about the Jupiter lenses

 

The early Canon rangefinders are close copies of the Leica, the later ones much improved.

Many Canon rangefinders will still work fine, with no CLA. They use the same lenses

as the LTM Leica models, but not the M Leica models. The Canon P is a popular

and fairly easy to find an afford model.

This is quite interesting and I appreciate the input from everyone. When I say I don't want a camera that gets in the way I mean I don't want to spend so much time trying to operate the camera that it interferes with actual photography. I realize the Leica is much different from the Nikons I've used for so long but it has begun to appeal much more. I find I have created a much lighter camera bag and the smaller lighter camera interests me. My first 35mm camera was a HiMatic 5 and I loved it. I could find some very effective lower cost options without a problem but I keep coming back to wanting a Leica. Go figure.

 

Rick H.

Rick, do you require an in-camera meter? If so an M6. If you don't, than depending on what lens you want an M2, M3, M4. Unless its recently been serviced, you will probably need to send it out for CLA (clean, lube, adjust) assuming there's nothing mechanical. Some things to looks for off the top of my head: Dents that could have damaged the rangefinder or bent the bottom plate in such a way its not light-proof. Foggy rangefinder. rangefinder framing brackets all work, and shutter curtain condition. You should be able to find something usable and repairable for not too much money.

The decision tree could look like this:

 

Meter required - then M6, M6TTL or, not to be forgotten, M5 (these with lens will likely not fit within 1k USD)

Meter not required:

-- shooting 50mm or longer - M3

-- shooting wider than 50mm - M2, M4, M4-2, M4-P

-- and willing to accept a quirky shooting experience - pretty much any Barnack (LTM) camera

 

The M6 and M6TTL will probably have the RF patch white-out problem which can be terribly annoying. My TTL did and required installing the MP viewfinder upgrade (added cost). The pre-M6 Ms don't suffer as much or at all from this. My M4 and the M3 I had before don't/didn't. And the Barnacks don't either.

 

The cheapest M will likely be the M4-2 or -P and they're absolutely excellent cameras. Ignore talk of the brass geared M2/3/4 being the best ones. All Ms will take exactly the same picture, all other things being equal.

 

The M3 is a bit of a one-trick pony. For 50mm many rave about the almost 1:1 viewfinder but I didn't find it much better than the 0,72x I have in my TTL or M4. But if you're a committed 50mm photographer it's one to consider. There are goggled 35mm lenses so you could shoot with them too, but they're a bit more bulky (though if one is used to SLR almost any M or LTM lens will be small).

 

For more focal length options go for a model with more framelines. The Wiki over at the Leica Forum has lots of info and a handy chart comparing all models.

 

Regarding the Barnacks. They use a take-up spool similar to the M3s. For the M3 I found it a major hassle since that was my main camera, but I don't mind it with my Leica II because I accept it as part of the shooting experience. Incidentally, trimming the leader is easy using a Swiss army knife. They have separate RF and viewfinder windows, the latter only corresponding (without the parallax compensation of the Ms) to 50mm meaning you'd need to use a VIOOH or such external viewfinder for more accurate framing. Still they're an absolute joy to use. I am continually thrilled and amazed that my 1931 Leica II is in its 9th decade and still ticking along. A Barnack will be the cheapest camera of the ones mentioned above. Note that there are many different models with varying specs, like sub 1/20 shutter speeds, with or without range- and viewfinders etc. There's of course a chart also for them over at the Leica Forum.

 

For lenses, if you're a 35mm photographer the 35 f2.5 Color Skopar is ter-ri-fic value for money. I see little differences between the results from that lens and the 35 Summilux FLE. Again, it is a fantastic lens.

 

There are lots and lots of really cool screwmount lenses out there, not only from Leitz/Leica but also from Canon, Nikon and others. They will work with adapters on the M cameras and of course without on the Barnacks. They are mostly very inexpensive by Leica standards but as for all old lenses condition can vary a lot. A favourite 50mm of mine is the f2 Summitar which is collapsible and a joy to use. Can be had for around 150-200 Euro and is a terrific performer.

 

Just a few ideas, don't hesitate to post back

br

Philip

 

Afternoon all,

 

Like many I've been moving back to film for a lot of things. While I just added a new computer and am about to update Photoshop I have also gotten out my enlargers and other darkroom gear and begun setting up for B&W work as well. I have always been a Nikon shooter and will remain so but have come down with a strong urge to get a Leica. The idea is to find one body and a single lens, likely a 35 or 50mm and use that alongside an slr for things I find along the way. I travel through quite a bit of countryside and am intrigued by abandoned buildings and vehicles, empty old gas stations, an old firetruck sitting in the woods, it could be anything. I'd like to add a camera that will force me to move more deliberately. I've always wanted a Leica and I think it is time. I'd like something a little older ie. less expensive but it needs to be straightforward in use. I don't want a camera that gets in the way. I see KEH has a few that appear to be in decent shape and reasonable in cost. Glass is another question though as it all seems quite pricey. It looks like I can get a good setup for somewhere around $1k if I work at it. Suggestions? Thanks.

 

Rick H.

You should check battery availability for any film camera that uses one.

Hello everyone. Rick if you want to "test drive" the Leica look/feel before plunking down a 4 figure debit from your account, I would go with Glen's suggestion. I did after being "seduced" with an M-3 in 2015 by Brad Cloven at a car event. First a Fed-3 (sexy red !) & now two (2) Fed-2's have been acquired. All where from Ebay & purchased from a dealer who advertises them as "CLA'd". Indeed they are, operating without fault in each case. Camera's with/without Jupiter-8 optic's range from $80-100 delivered to the States. A small Lowepro 110 case, rubber lens hood, G & 25A filters & a Gossen Pilot meter might top out a kit at $125. If you or anyone else is interested, send a private email & I will provide the dealer from Ebay. Aloha, Bill

I got a green Zorki 5 from Goodwill. The metal is green, which I have never seen in any pictures on any web sites.

 

Not CLA'd, but close enough for me, except for the rangefinder, which isn't close. Well, after trying it out, I read that you aren't supposed to wind and/or fire the shutter with the lens removed. Some part of the rangefinder linkage gets too close to some part of the shutter. That might be the cause of the rangefinder problems. I haven't tried to recalibrate it.

Since your looking at a Leica system in the budget category you might go over to Youxin Ye and look at his price list for possible repairs that you may need. Also a meterless camera can be very slow unless your really good at sunny 16. If you going to pull out a light meter on your phone or whatever it takes time. I brought that up as you were talking about a camera that does not get in your way and slow you down or something like that.

 

So if you wanted a meter then it's all about the M6. I think a beater model will be $1200.00 plus the cost of a CLA and possible repairs. The budget Leica shooters wind up getting a Voightlander lens and now the one thing special about Leica has been pushed aside for a 3rd party lens. The question then becomes are you any better off with that set up or a Nikon FG for $10.00 and an AIS lens that you probably already own.

For the Leica-screw-mount, the FED-2 is my personal favorite "Leica" experience. I shot with the real Leica III series back in the 60s, and found the FEDs to be a comparable way of achieving the Leica experience.(My FED-2 is RED).

It's a nice camera for a bottom loader, but I may yet go for something like an M4 for a more up-to-date experience. The biggest problem is that the lenses are so very pricey.

My Fed-3 is also red, but I think JD's looks sexier. . . he even has a medal! Aloha, Bill