Original 5D vs. Crop 7D Body - Please help!

<p>James. The 17-40 and the 24-105 L lenses serve me much better at their true wide angles than they would on a crop body. I do a lot of wide angle shooting. You are absolutely right about longer L lenses. They work better at crop lengths like the 7D as I alluded to when I stated that the 7D would be better shooting swimming. I agree about the video. I have it on the NEX but have not used it much yet. I did weddings with the Bronicas and my lenses were 2.8. I only used two most of the time; 50 and 75 mm. You are absolutely right about short depth of field which was good for weddings but is a problem when I shoot swimming at 2.8. Head in focus and feet blurred sometimes. </p>

<p>Sarah, very good article. I'm glad I found it!</p>

<p>I use both cameras for pleasure and business. I love the feel of the 7D solid, rugged, but right now it's in the shop being analyzed for various issues. When it was working I would rather carry it, than my 5Dc which is very slow and bulky in certain situations.</p>

<p>However, if you put the 5Dc in Continuous Shooting Mode it can perform adequately enough. What I love about the 5D is what other people love about it. Full Frame, better depth, simpler functions, relatively rugged, looks great with a grip, no complicated lens conversions, you can crop to hearts delight.</p>

<p>For sports, birding and even for weddings the 5Dc just does not cut it. I know allot of people might say the 5D is a great for weddings. Sure it is, when everybody is standing or sitting still then it shines.</p>

<p>But when people are flying down the isles and you want to capture that, the "plunk, plunk..., plunk" of the 5D, does not match or even come close to the "rat-tat-tat "of the 7D and some of the Nikon Cameras.</p>

<p>As far as looking into the 60D, I would rather plunk down my money on the very underated 50D which is made of metal rather than plastic and has a very good IQ.</p>

On the question of ef-s lenses compared to ef, from the

MTF charts the EF-s lenses tend to be as good or slightly

better in the centre than the ef lenses, but the reverse is the

case in the edges and corners, this is just a function of the

designed image circle. I wouldn't get too hung up on

theoretical sharpness however.

The other thing is how you want your lenses split, I use a

10-22 and 24-105 on the 7D and find this a very convenient

system although others would claim they hate it.

It is true that a larger format gives slightly less dof given the

same AOV, partly due to the longer focal length and partly

the difference in appropriate Circle of confussion size.

However, less dof can be a boon or a curse depending on

the situation. Any difference can mostly likely be overcome

with a faster lens on the smaller format.

The main reasons for full frame are better noise

performance and tone smoothness and same generation

cameras. This is probably only signifficant if you plan to

print larger that A3+.

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<p>Oh - and you can apologise<em> any time you like</em> for effectively calling me a liar.</p>

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<p>Keith, your point about DOF and sensor size is well taken, and I apologize for the excessive stridency of my remarks.</p>

<p>But I don't apologize for calling you a liar, because I didn't call you a liar. Lying imples intention, and I did not claim that you intended to mislead your interlocutor. Did you intend to bully him? Most decidedly yes. But you didn't intend to mislead him.</p>

<p>I don't have any problem calling out bullies, and I'm sorry to say, Keith, that you are a bully. I'm also sorry that the subtle nuances of the English language seem to escape you. Perhaps bullying and ignorance go hand in hand.</p>

<p>Suppose you have $20k and you want to buy a vehicle. Do you buy a 10-year-old used landrover with a V8, or do you buy a sporty brand spankin' new 4-cylinder sedan?</p>

<p>5D - you get the full-frame sensor. It will allow for shallower dof, despite the obfuscation in this thread.</p>

<p>7D - you get better AF, weather sealing, video, live-view, AF micro-adjust, sensor cleaner, big LCD, a few more megapixels, pop-up flash (for what it's worth), and a few more bells and whistles. And, you get a warranty. And it takes both EF and AF-S lenses.</p>

<p>The overall "image quality" is roughly the same. No matter which you choose, you're not going to be disappointed. Both are awesome cameras.</p>

<p>However I do want to steer you away from buying a 7D and EF lenses only, with the idea that you'll upgrade to FF some day. I say: pick a format and commit to it. Don't struggle with full-frame utrawides as a standard zoom for a crop camera. It's a poor compromise, and IMO the worst choice out of the bunch.</p>

<p>Wow, lots of interesting comments mixed in with some silly bickering. :) Thank you all once again for all of your feedback - love the discussion and I appreciate the many points brought up that I hadn't thought of. <br>

Arie - I'm inclined to agree with you because what you say seems to be consistent with what others say - 7D w/ certain EF-S lenses seems to be highly recommended. I guess whichever format I choose, I should commit to it and get the best lenses for that format.<br>

Regarding the comments on video - I have no doubt that the 7D would produce some amazing video (the samples on the web are impressive), but I think my current video equipment is adequate for my needs (taking video of my kid etc.) I'm really looking for something to take great stills with.<br>

Dick - thanks for the reminder / heads up on the mirror mod on the 5D! Very useful.<br>

I appreciate Yakim's argument and his sample photos (thanks for the cartoon btw! funny). However at this point I'm feeling more aligned with Nadine, Keith, and others who love their 5Ds. I have a feeling I'm going to still want FF in the long run and I'd rather start with an affordable FF box to begin with and take advantage of the savings by getting some good glass - primes to start with. I don't get the impression there is a right or wrong here, just personal preference. If my hobby goes far maybe someday I'll get something that has both the FF format AND the bells/whistles. Or maybe I'll realize that I want the cropped format after all as some have suggested. :) Anyway I'm still reading your thoughts so feel free to continue the discussion; it's all relevant to me until I actually make the purchase anyway. Hope you're all enjoying your weekends!</p>

<p>As I said in my first post, there is no single right answer for all and if you feel the 5D is for you - Go for it. It has great IQ at a very affordable price.</p>

<p>That said, the 5D lacks two things which I consider essential in a DSLR: Anti dust system and LV. My first DSLR was the 1D which lacked them and when I moved to the 40D I swore I'll never buy a camera without them. For me it is like AC in a car when you live in a country with a hot climate. Does it have anything to do with the car's dynamic abilities or safety characteristics? Absolutely not. Would I buy one without it? No way.</p>

<p>BTW, I <strong>do</strong> live in a country with a hot climate. :-)</p>

<p>Happy shooting,<br>

Yakim.</p>

<p>Interesting! How much of a concern is dust on the sensor on a 5D?</p>

<p>Summer. With me, I don't have a problem. I use a squeeze type bulb blower while never touching the sensor to blow off loose dust and particles. I have never cleaned the sensor with liquids and my 5D performs fine. I occasionally but not very often pick up spots on my pictures that need attention. I am careful(most of the time) to keep the sensor pointed down while changing lenses and not to do it in dusty environments. It is however something you should take into consideration as I think senor cleaning mechanisms are effective in the new bodies. These mechanisms do not guarantee clean sensors as there are deposits that defy shaking and require liquid cleaning whether the camera has a cleaning system or not. </p>

<p>Much has been written about the DOF difference between crop and full frame, and whether it actually exists or not. I don't want to write more, I'll just present an example. The subject is my cat, who was kind enough to pose inspecting the tip of a light stand. The background is some trees and a chain-link fence.</p>

<p>Lens for both photos was 70-200 f/2.8, mounted on a tripod with a collar. The lens and subject did not move between these photos. Both photos were shot at f/2.8. The cameras were a 5D and a 30D. EXIF is intact.</p>

<p>5D at 200mm:<br>

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v490/alanpix/IMG_2963M.jpg" alt="" /></p>

<p>30D, to preserve framing, was zoomed back to 125mm:<br>

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v490/alanpix/IMG_9711M.jpg" alt="" /></p>

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<p>How much of a concern is dust on the sensor on a 5D?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I used to clean my 1D sensor once or twice a week. I hardly used my 5D so it was about once a month. With my 40D and 7D it's about once a year. How much it's an issue to the specific photographer is of course very personal.</p>

<p>Happy shooting,<br>

Yakim.</p>

<p>Cleaning the sensor for dust is somewhat dependent upon the climate where you live. I am in the San Francisco Bay Area and I have never wet cleaned my 5D sensor. I use the bulb blower method plus a Sensor Pen when necessary. The 5D is known to be a dust catcher. However, I shoot weddings every weekend (almost) and check the sensor weekly. I may clean it about every 2 weeks. I change lenses fairly often. Dust will not show up on the sensor in photos, unless you are using f8 or smaller apertures. If you routinely use f5.6 and larger apertures, you'll pretty much never see dust except for huge pieces.</p>

<p>Mind you, by 'cleaning', I mean checking, and then using the Sensor Pen and blower bulb, not wet cleaning.</p>

<p>I own a 40D, which I also use for weddings. It has a cleaning cycle and that's nice. I use the built in cleaning cycle and perhaps the Sensor Pen every month or so.</p>

<p>In any case, I hardly think cleaning a sensor is high on any priority list--certainly not over image IQ, anyway.</p>

<p>I live in SE Georgia, so it's not exactly dusty here, and I wet cleaned my sensor twice in the time I used 5Ds, despite using the cameras in a variety of outdoor environments (from the beach, to swamps, to on top of bridges) professionally. The vast majority of the time, a blower was all that was needed, and, I did that perhaps once every couple of months.</p>

<p>I frequently hear the 'dust vacuum' complaint, but I found that either it 'wasn't that bad' or I wasn't neurotic enough to have a conniption fit over every last speck. Frankly though, for a hobbyist, I doubt that even the worst environment, and worst lenses (cheap zooms) would so terribly impact your shooting. Worst case it becomes a regular maintenance issue.</p>

<p>To me, the more important difference is addressed by the pic of the cat (an excellent illustration of the DOF difference). Notice that while there isn't a huge diff. in the trees (though def. noticeable - esp. the building, on the verge of being distracting in the crop picture, despite the distance from the focal plane), the DOF from the crop sensor unit keeps the entire cat in moderate focus, whereas the 5D's shallower DOF isolates just the cat's head. Having the <em>ability</em> to do that is a critical reason to shoot FF, and one of the primary reasons I chose to. For portraiture in particular, that kind of difference is <em>hugely</em> important. It's not to say that you can't produce excellent portraits w/ a crop sensor camera, it's just that the physics limit your capabilities.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>thanks again for the feedback. The cat photo samples are really interesting - from a portrait perspective i definitely like the 5d sample better.<br>

with regards to the dust, i don't live in an excessively dusty environment so i guess proper / routine maintenance should do the trick on a 5D without too much hassle.</p>

<p>Both the cameras are good. There are different advantages of corp sensor ( APS C ) over FF Sensor specially when you are using low quality lenses as their quality deteriorate at corner of the image. (read this http://adrienchan.wordpress.com/2011/02/18/the-advantages-of-a-crop-sensor-dslr-over-a-full-frame-dslr/ ) I am an amateur photographer and using 7D. I love its AF and customizable buttons.<br>

Regards.</p>

<p>Just yesterday I edited through a submission of photographs on homeless. The pictures were shot by a top photojournalist who shot with two 5D cameras plus 24, 50 & 85 (all L). The image quality was superb and the photographs excellent. It would be difficult to duplicate the look of those pictures with a crop-sensor camera since most were shot wide open. The quality of the raw images (what I was editing) was fine and there were certainly no issues. (I shoot with 5D2 + 7D, fyi). I think you should go for the 5D.</p>

<p>Thought I'd chime in since I bought the original 5d recently and also own the T2i (550d) which image-wise is very similar to the 7d. I will speak on image quality since the 5d and 7d bodies and functioning are very similar, save for the 7d's speed and LCD. As far as color goes, the 7d may be able to generate images a bit more striking and bold...but the 5d will deliver more natural-looking photos, similar to 35mm film than a crop body. The DOF difference will be subtle, but there the 5d wins a bit. With 50mm and telephoto lenses you'll see a nice shallower more natural looking image than with a crop body. Most would probably agree though that either of these cameras paired with a nice prime would be better than the other with a consumer zoom, so make sure you are using decent lenses. <br /> One important note - The 5d's subtle full frame qualities will be lost if all your photos are only published online. No one can see much difference in the images on their computer...if you plan on doing big prints, that's when you'll see the 5d's full frame benefits. <br /> If you compare the two cameras in person, you'd probably pick the 7d. The LCD will blow your mind hole. The video feature may come in handy, making it a better value than the 5d. Also, it is true that dust is really bad on the 5d...i have to clean mine all the time. <br /> Wide-angle lenses will be more affordable to attain for the 5d, and really the only wide-angle lenses for the 7d are zooms which will not deliver images as good as primes. <br /> hope this and the hundred other comments helps!</p>

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<p>I will speak on image quality since the 5d and 7d bodies and functioning are very similar, save for the 7d's speed and LCD.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I can not agree with this statement. Apart from what mentioned above the 7D has truckloads more features, better BQ, better AF, more buttons (better ergonomics), video.... you name it. Very little is similar IMHO.</p>

 

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<p>Wide-angle lenses will be more affordable to attain for the 5d, and really the only wide-angle lenses for the 7d are zooms which will not deliver images as good as primes.</p>

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<p>The 10-22 is actually better than the 17-40 and 16-35/2.8 Mk I. The good primes (Canon's 17/4 and 24/3.5 II and Zeiss 21/2.8) are far from cheap.</p>

<p>Happy shooting,<br>

Yakim.</p>

<p>"The 10-22 is actually better than the 17-40 and 16-35/2.8 Mk I. The good primes (Canon's 17/4 and 24/3.5 II and Zeiss 21/2.8) are far from cheap."<br /> <strong>Oh really!</strong><br /> I owned crop sensored 550D, tried 10-22mm Canon, and 10-20mm Sigma, both have severe distortion and the image quality is far from good. I sold it, and now I own the 5D with 17-40mm, it's way better combo for shooting landscape. And for more money you can get the Canon 16-35mm 2.8 or Tokina 16-28mm 2.8, both are outstanding lenses to shoot landscape. Bottom line is that IQ and low light noise wise there isn't a dslr with crop sensor (maybe Nikon D7000/D5100), can even match that of the 5D I. <br /> I am not gonna deny 7D is a far superior camera overall compare to 5D, it has all the advanced Canon technology except for its sensor, the Canon APS-C sensors are light years behind the ones from Nikon. The AF system from 5D I and 5D II are just pure crap (even low end Canon and Nikon dslr have similar or better AF system), and the LCD from 5D I is far below average.<br>

The important thing is that 5D and 7D are for different purposes, with the fast AF system and 8 FPs, 7D is more of a sports/wildlife/general purpose camera; but the superior IQ of 5D allows it for portrait/wedding/studio/landscape shots.<br />Lastly, the fast wide angle primes are expensive, but you get what paid for, the Canon 24mm 1.4 and 14mm 2.8 are for specialized uses. Don't be get angry and start making things up just because you can't afford them.<br /> <br /></p>

<p><strong>Yes really!</strong></p>

<p>Why do you doubt that if you had some experience with a certain lenses then everybody else must have the same experience as well? Simple things like different experience, different usage and copy variation could all play a part here.</p>

<p>You want details? Here are they:</p>

<p>When I switched from 1D to 40D I started looking at EF-S lenses. First I traded my 17-40 for 10-22. While testing (before trading) I noticed that the 10-22 was slightly sharper at the corners and had better flare resistance. The sharpness difference was not big but the flare resistance was. I wanted a wider lens (which was my driving force behind the whole idea of the trade), I got it and got a better IQ as a bonus. No brainer.</p>

<p>Later I tried a friend's 16-35/2.8 Mk I. Same story. The 10-22 was again slightly sharper at the corners and better flare resistance.</p>

<p>Distortion figures on all three were similar and negligible (remember, all were used on 40D). I could fix it in PP but I never felt the need.</p>

<p>Please note that I'm not trying to say the 17-40 and 16-35 Mk I are bad lenses. Far from it. All I'm saying that when trying out these copies the 10-22 came out superior. I had the 17-40 for 2 years on my 1D and a few months on my 40D and it performed very well. I have the 10-22 for 5 years now (40D and 7D) and it performs extremely well. In fact, at times I feel sad that I don't shoot a lot of landscapes to use it more.</p>

<p>BTW, the flare resistance issue was very important for me as I live in a very sunny country and the wider the angle, the more difficult it is to avoid the flare without significantly changing the composition and framing.</p>

<p>Happy shooting,<br>

Yakim.</p>

<p>Quick update to those of you that are interested. Wound up going with the 5D and it's on its way to me. Couldn't get past how awesome the photos that I took are on the one that I tried out - I just had to go full frame, despite Yakim's persuasive argument. Tough choice, but I went with the camera whose photos I liked when I tried out - and despite the lack of bells and whistles on this one, I'm hoping that in the long run that will make me into a better photographer.<br>

Anakin: I directly compared the photos from the 5D i used to the Nikon crop sensor cameras you mention, and I think the the 5D blows them away. Plus I like the handling / controls on Canon cameras so much more. I'm surprised by your comment that even the 5D II's AF system is lacking - didn't realize that. it does appear though that the 7D's af is great. why do you say that canon's apc s sensors are light years behind Nikon?</p>