Original 5D vs. Crop 7D Body - Please help!

picturesque · January 27, 2012

Figuring out what format or camera is the best for one is all about prioritizing what is important to you. You can get all the second hand reviews you want, and they are helpful for picking up on things you might not have thought about, but when it comes right down to it, you need to make that priority list and 'do the math'.

I know all about the supposed 5D focusing issues. However, I shoot wedddings, not wildlife, and for shooting weddings, I really have not had problems. I don't miss shots because of the AF. I learned to work the AF so I don't miss shots. What is important to me is the image quality, and the 5D delivered, and still delivers, the image quality I want. Everything else, I figure I can learn how to work so I get what I want--I just deal with it, in other words.

I also think things become apparent to you when you actually use a camera, so if you haven't used a 7D, rent one. Test the heck out of it and then analyze. If your 5D use was long ago, rent one, and again, test the heck out of it and then analyze. I think things will become very clear.

As for Yakim's comments, they are descriptive of his experience. Your experience may be different. Again--they are interesting and bring up things to think about, but should not be used to base a decision upon.

jay_seliger · January 27, 2012

@ Bill Blackwell: However, if the Mk III price is in the $3,000 neighborhood, then you can be confident the Mk II units will disappear fast. And you can count on there being a back-log on the Mk III regardless of price or specs.

</blockquote>

When the Mk III is released, I'd think the price of used Mk IIs would drop almost immediately as a fair number of people rush to sell their old bodies in order to afford the new one. That, combined with what "new" supplies remain, should make the old model less expensive, rather than more so. I've observed this anecdotally in the market for used Macs.

Stock-Photos · January 27, 2012

"Full frame does not offer a shallow DoF, Paul"

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Kieth, frame the subject the same way with a FF versus a crop sensor and you'll get shallower DOF with the FF because you'll be closer to the subject. Therefore, a FF will yeild shallower DOF. Paul is correct IMHO.

alwin_lai · January 27, 2012

I have both. The 5dc is a great camera when it came out and still delivers today after 6 years! In fact the picture quality still beat out lots of newer camera. Prime + 5dc = magical images! I love it. If mine breaks or got stolen, I will go out and buy another one. This camera does not have all the bells and whistles as the current crop of cameras which I like. As a pure unadulterated image making tool, the 5dc is hard to beat. Image files are highly maleable. Even the 5d2's does not take PP abuse as much as the 5dc's. I kid you not!

The 7D is a modern camera. Still the best compact crop camera today since its introduction. No direct competition from Nikon or Sony. This is a fast camera with a plethora of customizable options. Big difference from the 5dc. If you are into shooting fast erratic movers, this is it. The AF performance is 2nd only to the 1dIV. Leagues ahead of other EOS cameras. Having said that, the 7D has a higher learning curve than most other EOS cameras. Set it up right and you will be rewarded. Use it as any other EOS camera then you will not see a difference. Combine with its re-configurable buttons, CFn AF options etc.... the 7D will react to quickly changing situations with ease.

It is a tough choice. For me, the DoF and malleability of the image files makes the 5d a great choice for low light and portraits. The 7D is more picky. You need high end lens to pair with it whereas the 5d can deliver beautiful photos even with older lens. 5dc + 50 1.8 mkI is my portrait workhorse. But I do honestly feel as a general purpose camera, the 7D is more versatile. You get hdslr too. Canon has now included on-board flash commander with the 7D which is great for multi-strobe set up.

james_smith55 · January 27, 2012

Spending the extra money on a 7D or 60D will not make your pictures look any better. It will help you if you are shooting a track meet and want a fast shutter speed.

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Sorry I made a mistake. I meant to emphasize the increased frame rate of the 60D and 7D over the 600D/T3i. The 60D and 7D also have a faster shutter. But it's not that much of a difference 1/4000 vs 1/8000. If you want to use your 1.4 lens wide open on a sunny day I guess you can use it one stop wider on a 60d or 7d.

james_smith55 · January 27, 2012

But I do honestly feel as a general purpose camera, the 7D is more versatile. You get hdslr too.

</blockquote>

I'm glad someone else acknowledged the elephant in the room. If you have children and want to capture memories you absolutely must consider a Canon 600D, 60D, or 7D. They are some of the absolute best video cameras on the market. In one small package you have outstanding photo and video. HD video is going to be huge going forward. You may ultimately settle on getting a 5D but I would say please do yourself a favor and check out some videos on <a href="http://vimeo.com/30478950">vimeo</a>. The link is to a video shot with a T3i hand held with a kit lens. Far from ideal but check out the results.

keithwoodhall · January 27, 2012

You should lean towards the 7D. In general, it is more user friendly. You can use both lens mounts with it. MUCH better LCD for chimping, more forgiving of not-so-great lenses, etc. It is an awesome camera with great video capability. Plus, it has much newer features.

That being said, i shoot a 5D and LOVE it over the 7D I have available.

I have also never had a problem with the autofocus.

The 5D is awesome at 3200 ISO IMO and just seems to yield a better picture throughout the range. My Raw 5D files with no sharpening are sharper and cleaner than the 7D files even after leaving photoshop.

Yakim's close-up of the eyes DOES feature a very shallow DOF. My only problem with it is that, even in the focused section, i dont see anything crispy enough to make me appreciate the shallow DOF.

If features and usability are important, go with the 7D. If it is "all about image quality" and you want a camera that is a camera and nothing else, i would pick the 5D any day.

-K

yakim_peled1 · January 27, 2012

I have just found the quick-and-dirty high ISO comparison (3200) I made between the 5D and the 7D a year ago. For this comparison I put the 60/2.8 on the 7D and 100/2.8 IS on the 5D to create similar AoV. I shot standard JPEG and standard NR at both cameras. No tripod was used as I usually shoot handheld. As I said, quick-and-dirty test.

<a href="http://d-spot.co.il/forum/index.php?showtopic=247794&st=0&p=1913192entry1913192">Here</a> are the pictures and <a href="http://d-spot.co.il/forum/index.php?showtopic=247794&view=findpost&p=1913196">here</a> are the crops. I'll let your eyes be the judge.

And BTW, I'm a "he", not a "she". Not that it matters a lot. :-)

Happy shooting,

Yakim.<div></div>

Dave Luttmann · January 27, 2012

Alwin, what's a 5Dc?

Dave Luttmann · January 27, 2012

Yakim, shoot both with Raw and postprocess each to it's best...then come back and post the samples. I've done this...the 7D is offers equivalent noise with higher resolution. I'm surprised someone would go though the trouble to do a test...and use jpg OOC with standard default settings. WOW.

picturesque · January 27, 2012

5Dc is 5D classic.

Dave Luttmann · January 27, 2012

I can't find any mention of a Canon 5D Classic from Canon. If this is referring to the 5D...then it's just a 5D and should be called that....no need to make up names to make the camera sound special.

yakim_peled1 · January 27, 2012

Dave, I've already stressed that it was - by no means - a rigorous test. On the contrary, it was only a quick-and-dirty one. I only made it to get the feeling of the difference, nothing more. It took me about 5 minutes so there was actually no trouble at all. :-)

I also can't re-do the test as I sold the 5D rather quickly. Its AF system drove me nuts.

Happy shooting,

Yakim.

picturesque · January 27, 2012

Of course there isn't a mention from Canon about the 5D Classic...'5Dc' is merely what a lot of people who own 5Ds are calling the 5D. I find it a stretch to think that they are calling it that just to make it sound special. They are probably calling it that to differentiate it from the 5D II in forums, where shorthand labels are useful. Like it or hate it but it probably won't change. I've seen it used in several different forums.

cacaomoon · January 27, 2012

I just chose a second-hand 5D that was babied over a new 60D. It has only been a few weeks but I'm pretty happy with my choice even though I gave up some sports and wildlife benefits (more so compared to the 7D). One thing I found out is that there are no drivers for computer systems such as Win7 64Bit. I wanted to update my name on the camera (the previous owner's name was stored in the camera) and to change it with Canon's EOS Utility I had to install Virtual PC and Windows XP on my machine so I could load the Canon 5D Win XP driver. It worked and my 5D now has my name but I did spend 4 hours googling and installing software to figure it out. With the latest firmware 1.1.1 (2008) you can use 16 and 32GB CF cards. I also got an excellent condition battery grip that allows you to shoot vertical and run off 6 AA batteries. Which is nice if you do fieldwork in remote places and can lug AA batteries but not an electrical source. In the back of my mind, my 5D will last me a good long time. When it dies I'll probably be so addicted to the full frame that I'll want a 5D II or whatever latest version is around at that time. Good luck. I hope you get a healthy camera if you go the 5D route. GL

mark_pierlot · January 27, 2012

Full frame does not offer a shallow DoF, Paul - the lens does that. DoF is entirely a function of the focal length and aperture of the lens and the distance to subject.

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I'm shocked that such patent falsehoods could be uttered by someone who calls himself a photographer.

By the way, thanks for posting the cartoon, Yakim. I hope it helps some photo.net members to lighten up a bit.

mjferron · January 28, 2012

I have a 5D on the way as we speak. Had one before and loved it. Was sorry I sold it and am rectifying the situation. I'm not a telephoto shooter and will have only a Tamron 28-75 to use on it. I most often shoot at 28 and will use the 75 end for the occasional portrait. Big pixels are good pixels. Yes this camera is a digital classic. :) I'm not buying a 7D because i don't want to buy and 8D next year. My 5D will still be taking fine photos lousy rear screen and all. ;>

dzaebst · January 28, 2012

I really try not to post a response unless I can add something substantive of value to the original poster, and I don't like arguing whether this or that camera is better, because there is no true answer in all circumstances. However,

"Full frame does not offer a shallow DoF, Paul"

Kieth, frame the subject the same way with a FF versus a crop sensor and you'll get shallower DOF with the FF because you'll be closer to the subject. Therefore, a FF will yeild shallower DOF. Paul is correct IMHO.

</blockquote>

As a practical matter, true, but technically Keith was also correct, as he did mention one of the factors influencing DOF was distance from subject. Shallower DOF is also an advantage only in fairly limited circumstances.

The point needs to be made (since the original poster, Summer, indicated she does a variety of kinds of photography) that most of the time, greater depth of field is an advantage. It certainly is with landscape, macro, and tightly-framed telephoto work. I for one fight all the time to get greater depth of field in my photography....especially landscape work.

As I said, there is no best camera, especially assuming a variety of kinds of photography are desired.

Yakim, I really laughed at the cartoon. Thanks for that.

keith reeder · January 28, 2012

I'm right about this, guys - I don't care about your contrary perceptions. DoF is nothing to do with the size of the sensor.

Dennis read and understood what I actually wrote - thanks for that, Dennis.

keith reeder · January 28, 2012

I'm shocked that such patent falsehoods could be uttered by someone who calls himself a photographer.

</blockquote>

"Patent falsehoods"?

Back to photography school for you then, Mark - this is basic stuff.

Here's something on the subject from <a href="http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/digital-camera-sensor-size.htm">Cambridge In Colour</a>, a widely respected source of photographic knowledge, with my emphasis:

As sensor size increases, the depth of field will decrease for a given aperture (when filling the frame with a subject of the same size and distance). This is because larger sensors require one to get closer to their subject, or to use a longer focal length in order to fill the frame with that subject.

</blockquote>

See the point being made? The bigger sensor requires a different field of view for the same framing.

It is getting closer to the subject in order to increase its size in the frame and match the field of view of the smaller sensor - the closer proximity to subject throwing the background into greater defocus - that incidentally provides the shallow DoF.

It's hardly rocket science, Mark...

keith reeder · January 28, 2012

Oh - and you can apologise any time you like for effectively calling me a liar.

One last time, just for the avoidance of any doubt: DoF is not an explicit function of the size of the sensor.

yakim_peled1 · January 28, 2012

Big pixels are good pixels. Yes this camera is a digital classic.

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My first DSLR was the 1D which is also referred today as the 1Dc (1D classic). It had 4MP on an APS-H sized sensor. You want big pixels? These were huge.

Yakim, I really laughed at the cartoon. Thanks for that.

</blockquote>

Your welcome. I thought everybody knows it as it is a very old joke. But some good things never go out of fashion, no matter how old.

Happy shooting,

Yakim.

davidfarquhar · January 28, 2012

Putting aside the theoretical side of the DOF argument (I'm not an expert on this), I think the practical implications of the statement that a full frame sensor gives shallower DOF are worth mentioning. Looking at the lenses available to use, and shooting the equivalent field of view, the same aperture value on a full frame provides shallower DOF, something I hadn't known about until recently

For example Canon 7D with Sigma 30mm @ f/1.4, 10feet subject distance, DOF = 1.82ft

To get the same field of view on the Canon 5D I could use the Canon 50mm f1.4 lens, and at the same subject distance of 10feet the DOF is only 1.02ft (I know I should compare with a 48mm lens = 30 x 1.6 would give 1.11ft, but this doesn't exist in Canon's line up)

So trying to get some equivalence in field of view I end up with shallow DOF being more easily achievable on the full frame camera.

Take the f/2.8 zooms as well (17-55 on crop, 24-70 on FF), you end up with a similar result

7d @ 50mm, f/2.8 - DOF = 1.29ft

5d @ 80mm, f/2.8 - DOF = 0.79ft

I'm not too bothered by the reasons behind this, but the practical implications are useful to reflect on - for example you could buy a 5D and 24-105 f/4 lens which would wide open give you similar DOF to using one of the f/2.8 zooms on the 7D (also used wide open), assuming you are shooting similar field of view e.g. using focal length 1.6 times longer on the 5d. However you would have a more flexible zoom range, L quality build on the 5D option

I'm sure the theory behind this has little to do with the sensor size, but I think sometimes we should worry more about practise than theory

Yakim - great cartoon, hadn't seen that before

DickArnold · January 28, 2012

OMG. Summer, if you look at previous posts on this subject of full frame versus crop the discussion usually always degenerates into the same sometimes hostile discussion. I have used somewhere over 12 Canon bodies and I don't know how many lenses both film and digital for quite some time and in my own business. I also used Bronica Medium format bodies for a long time to do weddings and in overseas travel. I think there are distinctions without a real difference in product for most uses between the two formats formats on the 5D and 7D. I think that what I did in weddings and for a newspaper that either of these bodies would work just fine. Just hand me the camera and I will go do the job. I have, for a number of years shot very large swimming meets with a 5D. I think the 7D would do a better job for this purpose. However, the 5D is the best camera I own for the job. It works and I continually produce an acceptable and usable product. I own the 5D because almost fifteen years ago I locked myself into Canon L lenses and full frame bodies. IMO the L lenses work better on a full frame. If I owned a 7D I would use EF-S lenses. I think you will do well with either camera.

Just another thought. I used a Canon XTi for several years as a backup. This past November I traded the XTi and lenses for a Sony NEX 5n. It is a third the size of a DSLR but Sony makes the sensors for Nikon and it is the same 1.5 crop sensor as some Nikon DSLRS. The pictures it makes are significantly better than the XTi and make very nice 19x13 prints and match the 5D in normal size printing and the web. There are slow lens limitations with the Sony but the mirrorless design allows for a significant expansion of software capabiltiy that leads, IMO, in expansion of camera capability. I think there may be a significant changes in the next generation of Canon cameras also. I do not know what direction that will take, however. I think, and this is just my opinion there is a significant change already on-going with more on the way with a major rush to these smaller cameras. So I have dual systems as I have three lenses for the Sony but now one of them is not Canon, I am somewhat sad to say.

I don't think you can make a bad decision. I do not like the LCD on my 5D as it is small and I can't see it in bright light. There is a mirror mod that Canon makes for free and if you buy the 5D it should be done as some mirrors without it have come loose. You can tell the mod by observing black vertical metal retainers on each side of the mirror. I like the 5D viewfinder. The AF works. I use centerpoint usually. The camera works well for swimming at 3200 ISO and the pictures look good on the web. Handle the cameras. They are both good decisions. I don't know how long Canon will continue to support the 5D. I don't think you will be able to tell the difference between pictures between the two cameras for any normal usage up to maybe 16x20. IMO the best camera for the job is the one you own. I agree with Nadine. I also think that when you are in business the best can be the enemy of the good. The object is the picture and both will do a much better job than what I had when I started doing weddings fifteen years ago.

james_smith55 · January 28, 2012

Dick Arnold, an otherwise good post that was marred by a puzzling statement...

IMO the L lenses work better on a full frame. If I owned a 7D I would use EF-S lenses.

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I own a Canon cropped body and a 35mm canon SLR (full frame obviously). I have never owned an EF-S and my Canon primes and L lens work fine on both bodies. Sure the 10-22mm EF-S would be wider than the 17-40mm L on the cropped body but I get along fine with the 17-40mm L. One the long end the lenses are even longer on the cropped body. So you take a hit on the wide end and get a bonus on the long end.

I also used Bronica Medium format bodies for a long time to do weddings and in overseas travel.

</blockquote>

This is an interesting statement. I too own a full Bronica setup. I thought the debate about DOF in this thread was appropriate. As a medium format shooter I would caution anyone to be mindful of DOF when making sensor size selection. As another poster stated I am often fighting against narrow depth of field when I am shooting. I love slow low grain emulsions and fast primes. I can't tell you how many images I have ruined because I used f2.8 on a medium format camera with a normal lens (ie 35mm 50mm equivalent). I'm not sure how some people shoot but I just keep grabbing primes out of my bag until I get one that gives me the field of view I want on a particular camera. Sometimes I'm going through this exercise with three different cameras with three different sensor/film sizes and three different ISOs. Invariably on the camera with the larger sensor/film I will end up with a narrower depth of field. The actual technical physics reason why is largely irrelevant. I just know it will happen and if I want to avoid it I use the cropped sensor camera. I do appreciate someone giving the real reason behind the phenomenon but after you explain bring the discussion back to the practical. If you are shooting landscapes or children running around extra DOF is a boon.

By the way another reason to give serious consideration to the DOF gain of a cropped sensor is DOF control on Canon cameras is atrocious. It is way simpler and faster to do it on a fully manual Bronica camera from the 80's. Honestly how many people use hyperfocal on Canon bodies?

I think there are distinctions without a real difference in product for most uses between the two formats formats on the 5D and 7D.

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Again except HD video. I keep saying this OP. Please check out the video capabilities of the 7D, 60D and 600D. I think as a mother you will truly appreciate this feature.

Anyway if in the end you decide you simply must have a full frame Canon then by all means get the 5D. The point is to be happy and as Dick Arnold said you should be able to take fantastic pictures with either camera.

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Original 5D vs. Crop 7D Body - Please help!

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