No flash? Film for night reception.

<p>I am a beginner and would like to take some photos at a close friends wedding- dont worry, she hired a pro. I am going to be using my Contax Aria w/ 50mm 1.4 len. I am wondering if I can go without using flash(or just using my puny built-in one) if I shoot a highspeed b/w film? 1600 or 3200? Should I rate them at their true speed? And I would like to use a c41 film. Is this futile? And yes, I am one of "those" people who like the b/w grain. Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks!</p>

<p>Not sure if it matters, but it is a Zeiss lens, and I'm not proficient at metering yet, but I would still like to get some nice shots in if thats possible.</p>

<p>The Aria doesn't have a "puny built-in" flash (or any other built-in flash)-- unless I somehow missed that in the last 10 or so years ;-)<br>

You can try high-speed film (especially since you have the excellent 1.4 Planar lens) , but sometimes it's the "fill flash" rather than pure additional llight you need, so I would try to get one of the excellent Contax flashes that were made for the Aria (and other Contax cameras), which will effectively communicate with our Aria and get things right.<br>

Also, definitely shoot a test roll before the "big event"...</p>

 

<p>Even with such excellent optics, I think a small fill in flash really makes photographs at such events, especially since the pro-shooter is bound to use a lot of flash. If you can't find a Contax cheaply, get a small Metz MC20. It is nice and small and should be fine for your needs.</p>

<p>You are right Mike, no flash. Not sure why I thought it did. I love my Zeiss lens, but to avoid buying anything, should I just go ahead and use my Canon Rebel XSN SLR? It DOES have a built in flash :) and a night setting to boot - it has a Canon 4-5.6 lens though... so whats better for the beginner? The flash or the nice lens? </p>

<p>A nice lens anytime, plus the capabilities of the Aria -- a Contax flash might cost less than you think...</p>

<p>Whatever you decide, do a practice session first. You will need to know how your gear will work under the low light conditions. Heck at ISP 3200 with an f1.4 lens, you may not need to use a flash.</p>

<p>gud luk</p>

<p>Well if you get a flash you will need to learn how to use it. Its not as easy as just pointing the flash at the subject and shooting away, even if the camera is supposed to do everything for you. You need to think about how to light the scene.<br>

Personally I don't like flash shots unless I can get the flash off camera. They always look unnatural. If I were you I would get some fast film and shoot with the Aria. B+W film choice is easy. TMax 3200. You can even push it to 6400 if you want. That and the 1.4 lens will cover you for pretty much anything. You have other options for film too. Ilford and Fuji make some fast film. I like Neopan 1600. That can be pushed a stop too.<br>

As for colour, you will be limited on choice. The best film is probably Fuji's Natura 1600. You can probably push it too. Failing that, go for a 800 speed film and push a stop. I would stick to Natura though and if I couldn't get any, stay with B+W only.<br>

Why do you want to shoot C41? Because of the ease of developing?<br>

Contax flashes are cheap because no new cameras use them. Pick one up and play if you want but if you plan to use it for the wedding, make sure you practice with it and get your setup sorted out. I'd suggest going with digital if you are unsure about your flash skills and want to use flash. That way you can chimp the shots.</p>

<p>The digital is probably too slow with that lens. If you bump up the ISO then you will get a lot of noise which I think is uglier than grain. You also won't be able to play with DOF effects. Small sensor and small aperture will make most of your shots come out very standard looking. With the Aria you can open the lens right up and get really nice environmental portraits. In fact at our wedding my wife used her Aria with Planar and it churned out some really great photos.</p>

<p>Why not bring both the digital and the film cameras?<br />The lens on the digital is way too slow for indoors and night stuff without a tripod or a flash, so..</p>

<p>Fuji makes a 1600 color film that's made to be rated up to 3200 or 6400, that's my personal recommendation for a film. 3200 ISO and a 50mm f/1.4 should be good enough to miss a lot of motion blur. I've used an 80-200 f/2.8 zoom with 3200 Tmax in the past and got shutter speeds high enough to shoot handheld pretty much the whole time inside, and f/1.4 is 2x as bright as my f/2.8.</p>

<p>Since you'd like to use C-41 film, shoot some Ilford XP-2 Super. Just rate it at ISO 400 and use your 50/1.4. At EV 4 - typical of closeups by candle light or a very dimly lit altar - you'll be looking at around 1/30th at f/1.4. Most lighting will be a little better than that.</p>

<p>For various family weddings and events I've used Delta 3200 at 3200, Tri-X and TMY pushed to 1600 and XP-2 Super at 400. It's tough to beat XP-2 Super, especially if you do happen to use flash. Great skin tones, handles high contrast well including white bridal gowns next to the groom's black tux.</p>

<p>Last time I photographed a family wedding I used a D2H for most photos, along with XP-2 Super in an OM-1 with the Zuiko 50/1.4, and Fuji NPH in my F3HP. Of the three I liked the b&w photos best. So did the couple.</p>

<p>Don't fall into the trap of thinking that high speed film means you can rack off the shots in total darkness. High sensitivity's not the answer to everything. That said, I don't see why you couldn't use it. </p>

<p>I would consider using it (400+) with a flash. </p>

<p>If you want to use C-41 in black and white or color, there's no reason not to. It's just as good as it always was. Black and white film has been a sturdy answer for over 100 years.</p>

<p>Quote from Robert: "and f/1.4 is 2x as bright as my f/2.8" End quote.<br>

I always thought it was 4x. <br>

1/100 at f/2.8 equals 1/400 at f/1.4</p>

<p>Or did you mean 2 stops instead of 2x?</p>

<p>Lex-<br>

Thanks for your recommendation. I do want to stick to a c41 film. Do you think I can get away with not using a flash for 400 film if I use the 1.4 lens? I want to go to a minilab- so want to avoid anythiing that would require push/pull. Should I maybe rate it at 800 since Im not using a flash? Or would it be better to shoot the ilford xp-2 in my canon eos which has nightmode/flash/4-5.6 lens? I would like to see some grain in the photos, by the way. Do they make film 800 or higher for c41 processing?<br>

The venue isnt going to be super dark. Candlelight and christmas lights everywhere.</p>

<p>Thank you to everyone who has commented. All the comments were very helpful!</p>

<p>The lighting you've described sounds like EV 4. That works out to 1/30th second at f/1.4 with ISO 400 film. That's workable. (Check <a href="http://www.fredparker.com/ultexp1.htm">Fred Parker's Ultimate Exposure Computer</a> to help guesstimate exposure conditions.)</p>

<p>I'd stick with rating XP2 Super at 400. It can tolerate a little underexposure but not as much as claimed, and minilabs can rarely do much with underexposed negatives. Most minilabs will give you thin, murky, ugly prints from underexposed C-41 films. If you're forced to shoot it at 800 or worse, be prepared to scan the negatives yourself to salvage the shots.</p>

<p>Having said that, if you rate it at 400 and find yourself forced to nudge the shutter speed from 1/15th to 1/30th to minimize motion blur (camera shake or subject movement) - effectively, shooting at 800 - the lab can probably do a fair job. But I wouldn't risk underexposing it more than one stop unless I was prepared to scan 'em myself.</p>

<p>And if you don't mind going with color film, Fuji Superia X-tra 800 is excellent stuff. Used a lot of it for events before I switched to digital for color photography. Or Fuji NPZ (not sure what the current label is, might be Pro 800Z or something like that). Handles mixed lighting very well, better than any other color film I'd used. If the minilab can't produce reasonably neutral color prints from Fuji films, take the negs to another lab.</p>

<p>As Lex said, you are looking at about EV 3 or 4. I always found that the Fred Parker chart was a good guide but a little optimistic. I usually shoot an EV or sometimes 2 under the recommended value. So for sunny 16 (EV 15), I will actually set my camera for EV14 or sometimes EV13. In reality, I should be using 1/500 at f16 with a 400 speed film but I usually shoot at 1/250 or sometimes 1/125. All my meters agree with me too. Maybe its the sun here thats a bit weaker than everywhere else ;)<br>

So, with that in mind, with 400 film you will have to be very careful with your shots. Shooting at f1.4 handheld at 1/30 or slower is quite tough. You have shallow depth of field and you will most likely be shooting at moving subjects. You will also be forced to use f1.4 for every shot, which you may not want. The Aria has a good finder but I find it is sometimes a bit hit or miss with its focus aids being right on target. Try to use the microprism area for focusing (or even better the actual matte screen) rather than the split in the center. I find its more accurate.<br>

As Lex suggests, if you really want C41 and fast, then colour is the best choice. You say you don't mind grain so the 800 choices Lex mentioned and Fuji's Natura 1600 will be good choices. Then if you want B+W prints, you can just scan them and convert yourself or ask the lab to output in B+W only. The problem with this is twofold. First you have the problem of colour casts. Most minilabs will not put out true black and white prints. They usually have a tint to them which is only really noticeable if you compare to a print that is neutral. Second problem is that the grain you are imagining with B+W films will be different to the C41 colour grain. It will look different and you might not like it. Try looking on Flickr or a similar photo library for high speed neg C41 film shots and download the thumbnail and convert to B+W in your software. That will give you a quick preview of what it will look like. Personally if I had to use C41 then I would go colour.<br>

Your Canon might have night mode but all that does is set the camera to use a combination of shutter speed/aperture and flash mode that are suited to night time work. What that combination is is anyone's guess but you can do all that better with your Aria... except the flash anyway, which will look unnatural in any case. The lens is also much slower (8 times at f4!) so you will have to use even slower shutter speeds. Autofocus might be a help though.</p>

<p>Where are you located? If the US, then you probably can only get 800 speed film.</p>

<p>I have had success with a foam cup fixed over the actual flash unit (NOT the sensor!). Trim the cup so's the sensor is still working. Point it strait up and let it diffuse light the scene.<br>

Works for me<br>

Murray</p>

<p>Personally i'm not sure you would be happy with these shots anyways whatever you do, unless you were to use a flash in some way. The depth of field would be so shallow you wouldn't be able to see anything but a sliver of someones face that is in focus. For example, this photo was taken with a similar lens on my Olympus, Zeiss lens 50mm f1.4. This shot was taken at f2 and even this depth of field is so shallow I don't really like it. You see her left eye is in focus, and her right eye is right on the edge of clarity. </p>

<p><a href="

<p>I forsee a couple issues, the depth of field would be the biggest for me, and next would be being able to focus the lens at a wedding with the limited amount of light there is. There will be things going on, and I would imagine that most of the shots would be out of focus - no offense to you, just talking from personal experience. </p>

<p>As for your wanting film grain, personally I like film grain also, but especially if you get 800 or 1600 speed film, and you are not printing a 5x6 print but an 8x10 or bigger, you will see the grain, even on 400 i have found you see some grain. If you look at my shot again, I am using TMax 400 with XTOL stock developer, which both give an exceptionally fine grain but... it's still there. </p>

<p>As other people have said, definitely do a test roll. Bring a friend or something the day before the wedding and see if you can come at about the same time the wedding will be so the light from the sun is about the same. Test some shots with your friend moving, standing still, move your aperture open and closed for some of the same shots, bring a tripod too and test some shots with your aperture more closed to get that depth of field wider, but remember what you tried, bring a notebook and remember what you did on what shots to be able to replicate it. </p>

<p>I have always had trouble with lighting but, something I concentrate the most on personally is depth of field and having assisted some wedding shoots before I know that a good shot would be one of the groomsmen to the husband all in a line waiting at the alter, and you wouldn't be able to pull that off at f1.4. One person would be in focus, everyone else would be a big blurr. Only way to get that is using like f8 - 14 maybe, depending on how far apart they are standing. Which, if using no flash, and not being very illuminated, you would have to use a tripod because your shutter would be somewhere at 1/15 which, your looking into a blurry photo anywhays from there if your handheld, unless your a robot with an iron fist but... I doubt that. </p>

<p>Good luck, hope it all goes well. <br>

DJ </p>

<p>Hi Shannon, thanks for your email you sent and the kind words about our work. I thought I'd reply to you here rather than by email so others can hear what I have to say. I think others have mentioned Fuji Natura 1600 color film maybe not specifically by name but this is what they're referring to. It's a great film and I have shot it at weddings (for those of you who don't know me I'm a wedding photographer using film) without flash at f/1. It tends to be rated best at around 1200. I would say though you'd be best to shoot a black and white film when the light gets dim unfortunately you'll have to shoot a true B&W film not C41 to get the speed you need. Ilford Super XP2 (C41) will not cut it in dim light. For B&W I tend to shoot Ilford 3200 or Kodak TMZ 3200 without flash at f/1 or 1.4. Fuji Pro 800Z (out of production now) is still a great C41 color film and if you can get Natura in the US give it a try too, at f/1.4 they both should be decent.<br>

Good luck and let me know how it goes!</p>

<p>Here's a couple of photos, sorry about the borders these are advertising material. Couldn't be bothered tracking down the original files.. Also if you shoot wide open the depth of field will only be noticeable if your subject is close, if you shot a room at f/1 like I sometimes do the depth of field is actually quite deep and not as shallow as most people think. First shot is daylight, Ilford Super XP2 shot on Leica M7 with 50mm Summilux f/1.4 @f/2. Second is indoors under poor light on Ilford Delta 3200 Pro on Contax 645 with Zeiss Planar 80mm @f/2.</p>

<p><img src="http://stclair-photography.com/files/posts/1.jpg" alt="" /><br /> <img src="http://stclair-photography.com/files/posts/2.jpg" alt="" /></p>

<p>No need at all to use a flash - provided you can get the ISO to around 1600 or at a pinch 800. You will have to be quite quick and accurate with your focussing especially if people are moving around. With a 50mm don't bother trying to much with subject that are moving and closer to you - you would need a wide angle for that and you're likely to find that they will be wiped out by a combination of subject movement, inaccurate focussing, and shaky hand, so concentrate on things that are still (at least for a moment) and/or preferably not too close.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>And practise holding the camera still as you squeeze the shutter. An air pistol in the garden is a good way to practise!</p>

<p>Thanks to everyone for the helpful responses. Thank you so much Jason for your advice and great examples. I dont think I'll be able to get my hands on the 1600 but I can get the 800. Do you recommend shooting it AT 800?</p>

<p>Sorry guys! One more question. So lets say I'm shooting 800 film. Which mode on the Aria should I be using here? Av, tv, or p? I would prefer to use p, but let me know if I need to manually set shutter speed or aperture. Also should I change my metering method? I usually only set it to evaluative; would center weighted be better in this case?</p>