Why is the Leica M shutter so loud?

Sound level meters are designed for measuring relatively constant level sounds. A shutter is anything but. You need the integral of the area under the "noise" curve, and you need it for a series of narrow frequency bands. At least than you have the data that you start to apply perceptual models to.

 

Modern Photography didn't know what they were talking about.

I bought a Leica M2 after owning several leaf shutter cameras over a period of years and consider the M2 to be a fairly noisy camera.

yes John but when you use the same conditions to test both shutters the results are comparable. Loud is loud a Sound pressure meter is used to measure this LOUD I used a sound pressure meter to show just how close a Leica Cloth focal plane Shutter a leaf shutter and a Canon Cloth focal plane shutter is. I'll stand behind my results. If you think the tone pitch or duration changes how loud something is but in my test I tested HOW LOUD the shutters were not how your hearing might perceive them.

If "quiet" is what matters, the Hexar AF is about one million times quieter than a Leica, based on tests that Grant Lamos and I ran on the New York City subway. The Leica (M6) shutter was significantly louder than the Hexar AF, even with the Hexar in non-quiet mode. Current digicams are also significantly quieter than Leicas.

 

And virtually any leaf shutter camera other than the Fuji rangefinders is quieter than any Leica.

 

Now there aren't many situations in which "quiet" is all that important, a lot of people think it matters when people really aren't paying attention, but if it does, get a Hexar AF, a Mamiya 6 or 7, and you will have much quieter results.

Tom - No, the sound I was referring to is the slow gear train for slow shutter speeds.

Incredible discussion!

Please, use your own ears !

 

I've just tested (no instruments, just my own ears).

Leica M3 sound is way, way softer than OM-1 with MLU.

In between is Leica IIIf sound.

 

I tested three M3's, three IIIf's and two OM's. All specimens of the same model

have virtually identical sounds.

 

They have so different sound levels you don't need an instrument to decide. As

most of our subjects don't carry Sound Level Meters in their pockets, the ear-test

is more than adequate.

By the way, quite aside from the actual shutter noise, you do realize that the

last issue of Modern Photography was in 1989, so even though the Modern labs

were generally pretty reliable on what they actually reported, these data are

perhaps just a little out of date. There may be people in this forum who had

just been born then.

 

Leaving out the mirror noise by locking up the mirror is hardly a realistic

start for a comparison of noise in shooting in any case.

Have we talked about the fact that SLRs are also making noise when they close down the lens aperture when fired? Also, my Leica M's are much more quiet when actually shooting film... anyone actually shooting film, or just clicking the shutter of empty cameras?

"By the way, quite aside from the actual shutter noise, you do realize that the last issue of Modern Photography was in 1989, so even though the Modern labs were generally pretty reliable on what they actually reported, these data are perhaps just a little out of date. There may be people in this forum who had just been born then. "

 

Yeah, 1989. The dark ages. Makes you wonder how Oscar Barnack managed to calibrate anything back in the 1920s. Maybe that explains the Leica shutter noise! ;-)

 

"Have we talked about the fact that SLRs are also making noise when they close down the lens aperture when fired?"

 

It's true that there is some noise from the SLR lens stopping down but it's so slight that I doubt it would add anything to the peak db reading.

I found many of the comments above quite interesting.

 

Expectation has a lot to do with it. We'd like the M to be dead silent but it isn't. We just love it so much I guess we exaggerate.

 

IMO the M's sound is definitely audible but very discrete. Nothing unnecessary. Just a nice, polite 'click'.

 

Indeed, the OM does have that hollow 'ping'. And it's more fussy, as the gearing for the aperture and mirror are still active, even if it's stopped down and the mirror is up.

.... yet another "oh no, my camera is SOOOO noisy, I cannot take pictures in public anymore" thread......

 

.......is there anything less important to taking good photos?

As so many have said, walking around with a camera with the mirror locked up isn't really practical. But maybe using it in a bird blind might be. I guess it depends on what you're doing.

 

In general, an M is quieter and less obtrusive than your average SLR (and DSLR) but part of this is probably the mass of the camera (adding to the "obviousness" of the operation). My little Konica I rangefinder with it's integral lens and leaf shutter is the quietest camera I own (and it's cheap too).

Before we blame Modern Photography magazine let's look at the evidence.

 

We have a link to an article that shows the test results. Someone has then interpreted the results. Don't you hate when that happens?

 

I don't see any text from the original article. I don't see any conclusion from the original article.

 

One of the authors of the original article, Jason Schneider, has probably handled more different types of cameras than anyone alive. I am sure that he would laugh at the conclusions.

 

Cameras sound different. As others have noted there are different aspects to the quality of sound besides loudness. Some camera sounds annoy us more than others. I have some rangefinders that make a fairly quite but annoying snik. Snik. Snik. Snik. Even I find it annoying.

 

Some SLRs are louder but have a soothing, almost comforting noise. You hear the soft shutter. You hear the burr of the rewind.

 

Click, burr. Click, burr. Snik, snik, snik. Which would you rather have?

Silent or near-silent cameras are Hexar AF in "silent mode" (there's no perceptible click or motor noise) and most digicams.

 

One amazingly good silent wannabe-DSLR is Canon S3.. newer models may be as quiet...I imagine Canon G9 is silent and it features RAW...Sigma and Ricoh also have digicam-whisperers...It'd be nice if G10 had L glass, bright frame finder, and less zoom.

Marc,

 

Why are you talking about "blaming" Modern Photography. That's a rather pejorative way to look at the magazine's findings and betrays a less than biaised approach, in my opinion.

 

As I said in an earlier post, I've taken the report of Modern Photography's findings on trust but I've no reason to believe they are inaccurate. It's not necessary to interpret anything: the db figures tell their own story.

 

"One of the authors of the original article, Jason Schneider, has probably handled more different types of cameras than anyone alive. I am sure that he would laugh at the conclusions. "

 

This may or may not be true but you've just done what you criticised the other website for doing - interpreting something you know nothing about.

 

"Click, burr. Click, burr. Snik, snik, snik. Which would you rather have?"

 

Given a choice, I'd like zippity-do-dah.

Sorry, Marc. I should have accused you of having a "less than unbiased" approach.

Bruce,

 

No insult intended! To be "a bit a thick" is only a very mild rebuke! I guess I just

don't understand the practical significance of this analysis as the use of an SLR

with mirror locked up when walking about is surely no one's ideal choice. As it

happens I do actually sometimes release my R6.2 handheld with the mirror

prereleased when I am trying to minimise cameras shake and it does help.

 

When the M shutter is considered to be "quiet" its quietness is pretty well

completely due to the fact that there is no mirror because it's a rangefinder not

because the actual shutter curtain is so whisper quiet. As far as I am aware this is

all that Leica have implied when pushing the "quietness" of the M Leica.

Perhaps 1 reason why the SLRs w/mirror lock-up are quieter than the M4-2 in the Modern tests is not that the shutters make less noise but that the SLRs (especially the big old-school cameras in the test) have more camera mass to mask the shutter sound (once the mirror-related noise is taken out of the equation).

I own Leicas, Olympus, Nikons and Canons. I've done the test with all the cameras, mirrors up and down using my own ears. Leica Ms always come first in silence, next the Nikon F, then the Olympus OM-2, then the OM-1. The F2 is louder than the F. The Canons I own are EOS and motordriven, so my EOS 100 is wonderful quiet for such a camera. BUT NONE of them beats my Hexar AF in silent mode, or my digital compact cameras, which are virtually inaudible. As someone has already said, decibels don't tell the whole story.

The Robert Monaghan page giving average readings is mis-leading. I have the March 81 article, and without the trace it is meaningless. The Oly. OM2 is classed as a quiet slr. The trace shows 1 peak at 75db and another at 80db but when averaged comes out at 67db. The Nikon F3 is listed as a noisy camera at 75db. The trace shows three peaks above 80db and one hits 90db. In the Nov 81 Modern Photography is a test for the Leica R4. Its average sound is 66db, only 1db higher than the M4-2, but the trace shows a sustained peak at 75db and one at about 80db. Without a trace for the M4-2 we can't compare the sound levels. The M4-2 might have a continous sound level of 70db which when averaged comes out at 65db.

While all the other opinions above this one have merits, I prefer Leica MP because it IS so quiet without having to resort to different workflow. My P67 is relatively quiet after I use MLU and so is the Hasselblad etc. My TLRs are inherently quieter and work faster than the P67 or Hasselblad, if I can skip the tripod mounting. If on the tripod, and outdoors, "quiet" is relatively inconsequential to me . . .but I digress. My Leica MP is quiet and works fast in a quiet room, low-light etc. My Minox ML/GTE/LX/B are whispers by comparison. Based only on the moment of exposure, how many moving parts are there in an SLR vs TLR vs Rangefinder with manual film advance? Lens diaphragms, leaf shutters etc all have their features and contribute sound & vibration. If speed, rapid functionality were key in a situation, I would seriously consider using my G2 which is on a par with the Leica in many ways. Then there are the DSLRs! Turn off the synthetic clicks and it really gets quiet! The noise comes from the autozoom lenses etc . . .yes?

Bruce,

If there's something to Leica M, it is 2 things above all : solidity and silent shutter. I use the M7 (the most silent one of them all) precisely

for this, with a fast 50mm lens for shooting in interiors. A Luigi half case further dampens the sound. Only central shutter cameras are

quieter. I have 14 cameras in all, and only the Rolleiflex can beat this one for noise, but it is much more obtrusive.

Every time I borrow a friends Leica M6 my main problem with it is NOT being able to hear the

shutter. I think it is the quietest camera ever made.

Totally agree with Jeff Spirer here.

The sound of a M

depends on the

model. There are

differences in noise

level as well as

shape. If there's

enough interest, I

could record the

clicks of MDa, M6

classic black and

silver, M6 titan,

M6TTL black and

silver, and MP

silver using a

high-quality [kind

of artificial head]

mic, w/ or w/o lens

attached, at

different speeds - -

publish the sound

file (perceived as

3D sound when

listening to with a

headphone) and let

people vote what

noise belongs to

which M and what

model has the best

sound. :) anybody

interested?