Is the online book by Dan Heller doable?

[dano1]

Hey all. I read a post on here about starting a photography buisness,

and someone recommended the webpage

http://www.danheller.com/bizfaq.html . I read the "Read me first" the

"Read me for pros" and the first four chapters. This really got me

thinking that I could become a pro, and that it wasn't as hard as

everyone out there says it is, even though it is still a challenge.

 

I posted a question on another forum, and talked about how I would be

using the internet to sell my prints, and make money. I got all sorts

of negative feedback. They said that making money selling prints on

the net was "a fantasy" and when I reffered then to Clyde Butchers

site they said that "sure, go out and play basketball and expect to be

Micheal Jordan" or something similar. They really didn't think that

it was possible for a person like me to go out, take photographs, and

sell them on the net.

 

So I ask you, the thoughts and ideas that Dan Heller writes about on

his site, are they valid? Is he right in saying that the photography

buisness is no more competitive than any other buisness? Can you make

a living by selling prints/images over the internet? Were all these

people I talked to from the "old school" of photography buisness, as

Dan Heller decribes?

 

Any thoughts, ideas, suggestions would be much appreciated,

 

Dan O.

[william_foster]

The answer lies directly in your question, except, you need to put the emphasis on the right word.

 

Instead of "CAN you make money on the internet selling photos?", it should be "Can YOU make money on the internet...".

 

I feel like Dan Heller has a very realistic point of view on photography as a business. In fact, I recommend his reading to anyone who wishes to hang out the shingle. The bottom line he points out is (in so many words) there is money to be made out there, you just need to be a good business person to find it. It helps to be a good photographer too, but your photos won't sell themselves in a saturated market of amateur photographers who are willing to take the lowball offer just to make a penny.

 

I don't personally sell photos on the internet, but I would be the last person to deny that there's money to be made doing it. I prefer to market myself with a service over an end user product. That doesn't mean that you should do the same. Since photography as a business exists as a free market, you had better figure out what you do best and do it. If you are an excellent photographer who shoots on spec and can sell those prints on the net, do it.

 

Remember, if someone out there tells you it's not possible...prove them wrong. It's the photographers who can easily navigate out of the ruts that will make their business thrive as business conditions change over the years. Living well is the best revenge, so to speak.

 

Good luck and don't let the naysayers hold you down. Last bit of advice, pick up a book by Tom Zimberoff called Photography, Focus on Profit. Some of his points of view differ from Dan Heller's but in those situations, I tend to lean a little toward Heller.

 

Best of luck.

 

Bill Foster

[bobatkins]

Of course you can make a living selling prints on the internet. Dan Heller seems to.

 

But, of course, he's Dan Heller and you aren't, and I don't know how much he makes from his Internet sales of images.

 

If you work hard, market yourself up the wazoo, create great work and you're lucky maybe you can too. You'll never know unless you try. The financial investment is a lot less than a "bricks and morter" business. I'm sure you can get someone to setup a site for you with all the bells and whistles for taking orders for under $500.

 

However I know a lot of people who have work for sale on the internet and very few, if any, come anywhere close to making a living doing it. Many of them sell very little indeed, if anything at all, even though their work is pretty good. It's a very tough market to crack.

 

If you watch late night TV, you'll find lots of ways for "the average guy" to become a millionaire by buying and selling real estate. Donald Trump seems to do pretty well at it, so yes, it's certainly possible.

[dano1]

Interesting, two slightly different points of view.

 

I'm the kind of person that doesn't fit well into a day job. The main reason is that I must take medications which have several sideffects, one of them being drowsyness. That sideffect only lasts about 2-4 hours a day, but since it happens up to twice a day it is going to keep me out of a day job. There are other sideffects which I don't care to talk about that will keep me out of a day job as well.

 

I'm going to get my associates this May, in a degree I'm no longer interested in. I would love to start going out and shooting, but I don't own a car (I do have use of my father's for the time being), and I have only a few hundred dollars in the bank. I will have a lot more money in a few months though, once I complete a job for my uncle.

 

I need some way to get started with minimal capital investment. I will probably have over $2000 by the end of May, and I don't want to spend it all right away.

 

What would you suggest I do? Is there some way to ease my way into photography with the amount of money that I will have in a few months?

 

Mainly I enjoy landscapes, though I also enjoy taking photographs of my 9 nieces and nephews, so portrait photography is an option. I love to travel, though due to my financial condition have done very little of it. I also enjoy black and white photography, mainly with either my Minolta XG-M or Yashica-A and some T-Max 100, or Tri-X if in low light.

 

So, what do you guys reccomend? I'm open to new ideas.

 

Dan O.

[william_foster]

I think Bob and I are saying the same thing. It's possible, just not easy or maybe even probable. All I added was a "don't let that stop you from pursuing your goals".

 

I don't know Dan Heller personally and probably couln't point him out of a crowd of one, but I can say with a high level of confidence that he has spent a very long time "paying his dues". Just browse his site to see how many photos he has acquired over the years. This is not the collection of someone who just jumped into photography last year. In addition, his photography is not only excellent technically, but it's unique as well.

 

I think it's safe to say that you should probably be seeking alternative sources of income while you build your photographic skills and business acumen. Sure there's low hanging fruit out there, so immediate sales are not too far off, but making a living is another story. If you truly desire to start a business, do it right and do it well. Start with a business plan, figure out how you will pay your bills and start building a portfolio (online or otherwise).

 

If I were in your situation (I have been before), I would not spend a penny on more equipment until you have clients paying for it.

 

Lastly, don't completely discredit the "old school" photographers as being outdated. There's plenty of good advice in what they say, just make sure you understand why they tell you the things they do. Only then will you know what to take away and apply to your own situation.

 

--Bill Foster

[enlightened-images]

My 002 cents...

 

From what I know, Dan has some very good business sense, and he's included a great deal of food for thought on his web site, and for that should be commended.

 

However, just as an FYI, my understanding is that Dan belongs to that class of photographer that doesn't need to earn a living from photography - thanks to previous business ventures. (Ahh if we could all be so lucky) - And don't kid yourself - there's a good number of them out there that were successful in other businesses first, and could afford to pursue photography as a career by choice, without fearing the risks of failure. There's a huge difference between "Making a Living" and "Making Gravy"

 

That said, I certainly don't have anything against him, his work, or what he says. I'd simply advise caution at taking his words as the end all be all of the photography business. I'm sure Dan himself would agree that one of the key steps in starting a business is research, and to glean as much info from as many sources as possible. There are a lot of professional photography forums and organizations that are available to research.

 

I'll also add that I can think of few other business in the world like the nature & travel photography genre. In the field of stock photography, the competition is so vicious as there so many photographers happily racing to the bottom of the value ladder, either by choosing to market in the RF arena, or simply making thier work available for free so they can get a credit line, exposure, and the thrill of seeing their work in print.

 

In the print market, certainly sales can be made. There are photographers who succeed simply on the sales of prints. You just have to set yourself out there and be among the best of the best.

 

FWIW - I get 40-50,000 visitors a month thru my web site, have sold hundreds of prints online over the last number of years, and I still don't come close to "Making a living" from print sales alone.

 

This is not "A FIELD OF DREAMS" - You can't just build it and wait for them to come. Like anything else, success is born of hard, tireless, thankless long hours of work.

 

Best of luck...

 

 

 

Gary "Still hoping to win the lottery" Crabbe

 

Enlightened Images

 

http://www.enlightphoto.com

[qtluong]

Gary, where did you get the impression that Dan Heller doesn't have to earn his living from photography ? If you mean that he didn't have

to start from scratch earning his living from photography (unlike what

Dan O. is thinking of doing), that's right, but I doubt he was

independently wealthy (unlike Philip Greenspun or Michael Reichmann).

<p>

Don O., Dan does say that photography (the type you are thinking of

doing at least) is very competitive due to the number of hobbyists.

Keep reading the rest of the chapters, and in particular

the one about businesss on the internet. You'll see some numbers which

will help set your expectations right. Dan Heller's approach is most suitable

for someone who has been a good amateur photographer for a while and

hopes to make some money. I can testify that it works. However,

starting from scratch and hoping to make a living is a different

ballgame. I recommend you seek a flexible or part-time job and build

your skills and photo base.

<p>

<a href = "http://terragalleria.com/fine-art-prints.html">Terra Galleria Fine Art Prints</a>

[enlightened-images]

QT - I prefer not to say where I got that impression, other than my understanding was that he either sold a business, product, techology, etc. along those lines that put him in the very comfortable position where he could build his business w/o the same level of financial risk.

 

Doesn't matter what business you get into - but if you're gonna jump, make sure you've looked hard at ALL the facts, players (buyers & sellers, advice, and economic realities before you leap.

 

There are many other resources out there packed with info and advice from photographers who have scratched their way up from the top, had dealt with enormous financial risks, taken the hard blows in the wallets, and got bloodied by a few bad deals or experiences. I'm just saying that I might give advice from them at least equal or a tad more weight in reality if I was someone about to give up a job or trying to make a living selling photo prints and hoping to earn a living. I recommend looking at these points in addition to all the tips and advice Dan H. offers.

 

The best advice I can offer is to study the business climate, the market, the buyer trends, and explore the various marketing strategies before you invest. Heck, With one photo properly marketed, you should be able to make money. STAY AWAY FROM THE PORTALS that offer you a web gallery & will promote your work to 1000's of buyers. They really promote themselves to 1000's of artists who will pay to have pictures on a web site. Start marketing locally. Make postcards using a $79 epson printer and mail them to people. Use the phone. Marketing is not OLD SCHOOL. Take a business class. Learn to Value your work, and don't undersell yourself.

 

Gary

[daniel_parks]

If I read the articles right, it sounds like Mr. Heller was at one time involved in the software industry, possibly an IT manager (or somewhat higher up the food chain/org chart) because he mentioned interviewing and hiring employees.

[Jim_Tardio]

I think the best information you can heed from Heller's writing is that the internet changed the way photography business is done. It has opened doors for many of us (myself included), and given us a venue to showcase, promote and sell our work. These opportunities only existed for "name" photographers pre-internet.

<p>

About half of my sales (image licensing) come from buyers in other countries, thanks to the internet. Dan Heller's writing, along with his website, provides a good blueprint for establihing yourself.

<p>

Making a living at it? It depends on how you define making a living. I have kids, tuitions, insurances, mortgages, etc...I find it very difficult to believe that selling prints on the internet can provide enough money for all of these things. Even filling a car up with gas, going out to dinner, a movie, a play, a ballgame...whatever. It costs big time these days.

<p>

But, you can make enough money to support this photography habit, perhaps get some paid travel, and even make a little profit...all while having fun. One size doesn't fit all in photography. Find your niche and go from there.

[scott_robertson1]

<p>Besides having good business sense and skills, probably the second most important ingredient in Dan Heller's particular recipe for building a photography business using the web as your primary, if not exclusive, marketing vehicle is having a critical mass of <em>marketable and varied</em> images presented on your site. This probably means not dozens or even hundreds but thousands of saleable images. Furthermore, your image pages should be easily indexable by popular search engine 'bots like googlebot, a huge subject on its own. Designing such a site isn't particularly difficult, but it can be incredibly time consuming, especially if you are currently sitting on a mountain of unscanned film as your source material. What Dan Heller has built, over a period of years I might add, is essentially a small online stock agency which just happens to represent only one photographer.</p>

<p>From personal experience with my own <a href="http://www.slrobertson.com">stock photography site</a>, I can attest to the fact that once I achieved a large enough footprint on the web I started to get license requests, print orders and even an odd assignment, though I haven't yet reached that <em>critical mass</em> of content to produce consistent sales week after week. I'm not expecting to replace the income from my day job, at least not any time soon, but I do believe that following Dan's example can result in a nice side income at the very least. Good luck with whatever approach you take with your own business.</p>

<a href="http://www.slrobertson.com">Scott L. Robertson Photography / slrobertson.com</a>

[qtluong]

Gary, you were right about Dan. The information is on the web at

http://www.well.com/user/argv/

[eteel]

The amount of time and effort it takes to create a site like Mr. Heller's is considerable. You can't expect to have success overnight, but if you can start putting together a website with some good photos, and find a niche, then you can make it work. I do it part-time with mainly <a href="http://eteel.com/Washington_DC">photos of Washington, DC</a>. In a way, like someone else said, you are creating your own stock photography site, but you are the only photographer.<p>Good luck!