Selenium Questions

[sk_arts]

First of all, I am under the impression for unknown reasons that selenium has

an enhancing effect in the hilights, is this true? If not what does selenium

toner do exactly?

 

That aside, can i selenium tone negatives developed in pyro? Will there be

any benefit? Will my stain go away? Will my negative turn into fairy dust?

 

Also, what effect does selenium have on prints (searched for this, but it

seemed everyone already knew)? should i get a bottle of selenium toner, I will

be entering college as a second semester photo student. Selenium isn't on

the list, however, I want to learn as much as I can about b/w this semester as

next year will mostly be color. Plus I want to push b/w photography as far as it

can so I truely know it's limits.

 

I have known fine art photographers who I respected talking about selenium

toning negatives and prints, they all seemed to do it. It just did not occur to me

to ask what it did, I was a digital major then.

 

Sorry for so many questions lately. I just need to get everything I need before

school starts, without a credit card ordering while in school will be a huge

hassel to avoid.

[sk_arts]

sorry, I answered my own question.... I was so wrapped up in what selenium

does, I did not get search for what it does to pyro. The answer is a little

sketchy, but it doesn't seem to work.

 

Any additional advice on Forte Elegance Neutral VC with selenium would be

appreciated.

[chris_waller]

Selenium reacts with the silver to produce silver selenide, a completely stable compound. For this reason it imparts archival permanence to the print (or negative). It also adds density proportionally, thus it increases contrast. In a print this is equivalent to about a half grade. Selenium also changes the tone of the paper. This can vary from a barely detectable change with such as Ilford MG RC to a very significant change with other papers. I particularly like the effect of selenium on Ilford Cooltone. The tonal change varies with the concentration and temperature of the toner and aslo the length of time for which the paper is toned. Finally selenium can be used to intensify negs which are other wise too thin or of too low a contrast. I'm printing most of my work now on Ilford Cooltone and selenium toning as a matter of course.

[doremus_scudder1]

Shawn,

 

Selenium toner is primarily used to tone prints. Its effect varies from paper to paper, but, since selenium toner is basically red in color, it moves the image tone from neutral or greenish black to a more purple-red-brown tone. The amount of tone change is controlled by the strength of dilution and the time in the toning bath. Some papers respond well to selenium toning, some hardly at all. The variation in toning time and dilution needed to produce a tone change on different papers varies widely.

 

In addition to the purple-brown tones it produces on most papers, it also inreases maximum density (black) and therefore, increases contrast on the prints. This results in more separation in the shadows and, sometimes, a gratifying bit more snap in the highlights. Selenium toning also improves the archival qualities of the print by binding selenium to the silver grains making them less susceptible to attack from airborne pollutants. For this reason, many use selenium toner in weak dilutions for a bit of protection, but very little tone change.

 

Selenium toner can also be used to intensify most negatives. A 1:2 dilution of Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner for 5 minutes at 68° should increase contrast proportionally by about a paper grade. Unfortunately, toning pyro negs removes the stain, and results in about a paper-grade loss of contrast, effectively cancelling out any benefits. I have heard that giving selenium toned pyro negs a 2 minute bath in used pyro developer will restore the stain, but have not tried this myself. It is well worth an experiment (one which I will do as as soon I need to selenium intensify a pyro neg).

 

If you print on fiber-base, and like the look of selenium toned prints, then by all means buy a bottle of selenium toner. It's not that expensive and has a long life. Keep in mind that selenium is toxic and that you must use tongs or gloves to minimize contact with the skin. Selenium is also a heavy metal, and it is environmentally irresponsible to dispose of it directly into the water treatment system. I recommend the following:

 

Mix a working solution of selenium toner with water only (NOT a wash-aid as some suggest). You will have to experiment to find the right dilution for you. Toning is something you judge by eye, i.e. pull the print when it looks right and forget about timing except in the most general sense.

 

Save this solution indefinitely. As the toner is used up, toning times increase. Kodak recommends discarding the solution when the times become uncomfortably long, but I think this is irresponsible.

When the toning times become too long, simply replenish the solution by adding a bit of stock solution. You can save this solution, replenishing as necessary for years. I have two gallons that are going on three years. When a black precipitate forms, simply filter it out with a coffee filter or a paper towel inside a funnel.

 

If you must discard selenium toner, use it to complete exhaustion. Tone prints with it until the toning times are very long, then, toss a few scrap prints in the solution and let them sit for several hours. Repeat this till the prints do not tone. It is then safe to dump the solution: only trace amounts of selenium will be left.

 

Hope this helps,

 

By the way, why can't any of those highly-paid photography professors answer such questions for you? Is there really such a dearth of practical photgraphic knowledge in our universities and colleges these days?? (I remember teaching my photography professor about split developing techniques years ago. About that time, and after he wanted me to glue feathers on some prints, I decided I was better off with the library, the internet forums and my own artistic sensibilities!)

 

Regards,

[tim_curry]

One caution I would use with Pyro negatives, don't use the pyro after-bath as has been recommended in "The Book Of Pyro" by Hutchins. More recent tests have shown that dipping the film back into a pyro solution as a rinse to enhance stain has a net detrimental effect on the film. What happens as a result is an increase in "general stain" throughout the whole image. Where a normal pyro stain tends to enhance highlight separation, the increase of general stain only serves to reduce contrast and make lower values somewhat muddy or cloudy.

 

I don't know about the effects of selenium toning on pyro stain, as I have not used it on film at this point. The effect of enhanced highlights from toning of prints does not actually impart some color to the highlights, so much as it tends to deepen the lower values and solidify blacks. Because of this deepening of blacks, the whites look more vibrant and contrast is enhanced. Try some and you will find it very difficult to print without it.

[gareth_harper]

Never tried it on negs but every print I do is selenium toned.

With MGIV RC it rids the paper of it's greenish tone and replaces it with a more pleasing blue/purple tone with added punch. Selenium works on the shadows first, the mid tones second and if you leave it too long it will start on the highlights too. 2 to 6 minutes in Kodak Rapid Selenium at 1/6 dillution works well.

 

With Ilford MG warmtone RC you will get a strong tonal shift and achive a chocolately effect if left a good while. A 1/12 dillution is a good idea to slow things down a bit. Print on the light side if you want the full chocolate effect.

 

Use the search funtion here there is no end of stuff on selenium.

[magic1]

Tim, Gordon Hutchings no longer recommends the afterbath for PMK Pyro as long as you don't use an acid stop bath (use plain water) and TF-4 (alkaline) fixer. The afterbath was just used to bring back stain density that is destroyed by acid.

 

I got all this from the man himself. I had the opportunity to take his Pyro workshop this past August at Photographers' Formulary. If you are a Pyro user, I highly recommend taking it. I think Gordon will be giving it next year there in Sept.

[mike_kearney]

Shawn,

 

You should try selenium with Ilford's warmtone fiber paper-makes great portraits. I mix it 1:10 with water (no wash aid) and the paper tones nicely in 5-7 minutes. The stuff is toxic so buy the liquid selenium (i.e. Kodak Rapid Selenium) and don't try to make it from raw materials. Also, I keep my working selenium forever, just filter and replenish. An Ilford tech told me that selenium is especially recommended now for archival reasons because so many new chemicals (hi-tech adhesives for carpets and floors) are being introduced into the home environment that can damage a print.

[christian hanner]

Hello, I like Shawn want to start using selenium toner But like him I also have questions...

question #1: what dilution will give me the blue/purple tones?

question #2: all my chemicals are kept in 5 gallon containers how do I go about filtering the selenium when it starts to get weak?

question #3: also what is an indicator that I need to filter the solution?

question #4: I use photo-flo 200 when making prints, can selenium toner be used with it?

thanks for any answers any of you may have, Christian Hanner

[behnam_azar]

hi

how can i make fixer