Odd edge markings on film.

[marco_buonocore]

Hello all;

 

I've been doing some grey scale testing with Kodak 400TX developed in

1:15 Edwal FG-7 w/ 9% Sodium Sulfite solution. Looking at the negs

(and contact sheets) it is apparent that there are some odd "bubbly"

sort of edge markings. Looking over my last 80 rolls, this has never

been an issue before.

 

I've got two ideas as to what the problem is. First, the obvious, is

that it's ball bearings on my patterson plastic reels. Second, it is

something to do with the FG-7 and Sodium Sulfite.

 

This is my first time using FG-7, as well as my first crack at Tri-X,

while my reels have never shown themselves to be defective. So it's

difficult to figure out where the problem is. I've scanned two

contact printed images so that you can see what I'm talking about.

They are the worst examples, but other frames are effected as well.

I've uploaded them into my portfolio (as I can't figure out how to

post them in this message :). If anyone wants to take a look, I'd

very much appreciate it.

 

My procedure is as follows:

 

- 2 x 120 rolls 400TX in Patterson tank

- 2 min pre-soak at 68F

- 6.5 min developing in Edwal FG-7 with 9% sodium sulfite at 68F,

agitation is 30 sec initial, followed by 6 inversions in 10 sec every

minute.

- 30 sec kodak stop bath, constant agitation

- 4 min kodak rapid fixer, frequent agitiation (10s every 30s)

- 1 min constant agitation in water

- 1 min constant agitation in Heico perma wash

- 10 min constant agitation in water

- rinse with distilled water

- hang to dry overnight

 

Does this ring a bell with anyone? Any ideas on how I can avoid this

happening in the future? I've got 3 nice rolls of 400TX that I shot

last week that I really don't want to have any issues with, so

they're going to sit in the drawer until I can get this sorted out!

 

Thanks in advance for any thoughts you may have,

 

 

Marco

[lex_jenkins]

I'd recommend agitating every 30 seconds with plastic tank/reel systems. The higher reel flanges tend to interfere with chemistry flow to the film edges. This is most visible in medium format film, due to the thinner base and narrower margins between film edge and exposed frame edge. It occurs in 35mm film as well but often goes unnoticed.

 

Also a 2-minute presoak for Tri-X seems excessive. In fact, to me, it seems totally unnecessary. There isn't enough objectionable dye effluent coming from Tri-X after a presoak; the main factor I take into account when deciding whether to presoak a film. Also I tend to presoak only with reusable developers such as Diafine and Microphen stock solution, to keep both as clear as possible of effluent dyes.

 

Anyway, I'm not criticizing the practice of presoaking, only suggesting that it might be partially at fault for the problems you're experiencing. Either cut back on the presoak or eliminate it altogether for one or two rolls to see what occurs.

 

(And, before the caution flags start waving, yes, I've begun presoaking Efke and Agfa films after noticing a lot of effluent dyes coming out in solution. But this doesn't happen with Tri-X. And I don't presoak Ilford films because Ilford specifically recommends against the practice for their films.)

[michael_veit]

I got some "bubbly" edges when I first started developing film and found it due to a combination of insufficient developer volume and foaming from foto-flo contamination of the tank. The top edge of the roll of film was not so much submerged in the developer as sitting in the foam that was forming on top of it. Even if you eliminate the foto-flo thing, I'd still check my developer volumes.

 

BTW, on the right subject, that effect isn't all that bad. I once developed a roll in NOTHING but foam (raised the spool with a spacer) and the results were kinda neat.

[chris_waller]

Marco,

 

I also use Paterson reels and tanks but have never had a problem with any odd effects on the film edges. I process both 35mm and 120. I also pre-soak for 2 minutes with all films as a matter of course. Agitation - I invert 4 times in the first 30 seconds and then once every 30 seconds after that. Looking at the scans the marks are darker on the print therefore there is under-development on the neg. I'd suggest either droplets of water getting trapped against the edge of the film or bubbles of air. Is the fault on the top or bottom edge as developed? If the top then I think it's air-bubbles. Try reducing the amount of agitation and see if that improves the situation.

[marco_buonocore]

Lex; The pre-soak isn't something I normally do, as I'm using one-shot developers these days. The only reason I began with Tri-X, was that I was getting light pink negs which didn't sit well with me. I won't get sidetracked into that discussion, but I have noticed that my negatives developed in D76 or Rodinal are cleared properly, while negatives developed in Percepetol, HC-110 or (thus far) FG7 seem to have the pink cast. I'm assuming it's something to do with the alkalinity of the developer; next time i'm in the library I'd like to have a peak at Anchell and Troop's Darkroom Cookbook to see if there is some common chemistry between the latter three developers.

 

At any rate...

 

When I get into the darkroom this weekend I'll have to try to cut down on the agitation, perhaps more along the way I agitate when using Rodinal (very gingerly), and I'll see how that goes. With this in mind, does anyone know the effects of agitation on sodium sulfite in the developer? Is it particularly sensitive in these regards?

 

The funny thing about those images that I had posted was that they were developed in the same tank (a two reel patterson), on different reels, and the markings were on different edges (one on the left, the other on the right). As I mentioned, the worst cases were found on the first row of exposures - the taped end of the film, which I load in last.

 

Thanks for your help with this,

 

Marco

[lex_jenkins]

Be careful not to agitate *too* gently with the plastic tank/reel systems. Those higher reel flanges can interfere with chemistry flow to the film edges.

 

If you're using the twist-agitation method, once the bubbles are dislodged to begin with there's really no way for them to come back where the film would be affected. Any foaming would be confined to the top of the liquid and not trapped in the reels.

 

When I use my plastic tank/reels I don't rap the tank - too much risk of breakage. Instead I twist vigorously for at least 30 seconds continually at first. I've watched this with the lid off using scrap film on a reel; the camming action and vigorous twisting dislodged all the bubbles.

 

After that normal agitation duration and intervals can be applied.

 

BTW, I twist to and fro, not in one direction only. The reels, not my hips.

[chris_waller]

Marco,

 

You mention Perceptol. This, I believe, is a metol-only formulation and of relatively low alkalinity. As Lex has noted in previous threads, Rodinal, being highly alkaline, strips out the dyes more effectively. From other research (see 'Ag' Issue No. 31) it is apparent that alkalinity is a prime factor since the higher the alaklinity the more the gelatin 'opens up'. But returning to your original problem, I'm more convinced than ever that it's due to air-bubbles getting trapped between the film edge and the spiral. As before I'd suggest reduced agitation.

[alex coleman]

Hi Marco

I have had the same problem.

Tri-x Paterson Reels, in both Hc110 and Rodinal.

Tri-x seems very prone to this problem although it has happened me with different films.

See enclosed pic.

Only seems to happen with 120 Roll film.

One thing I have yet to find out if this is on the edge of the film that is on the top of the tank or on the bottom.

I know the last film that this happened with I had a lot of trouble loading owing to damp reels.

Was wondering if the dampness and sticking film had anything to do with it.

I'm still working on the cause.

Will let you know my findings.

[marco_buonocore]

Chris, Lex, Alex...

 

Well, after another session in the darkroom, I observed a few silly things. Right now I believe the culprit is a pair of the newer patterson reels. I see that the plastic edges on the two in question have a few rough spots (burrs, if you will) that seem to coincide with the markings on the film. they're very fait, mind you, but I assume it prevents the chemistry from circulating completely.

 

I'm not sure it was ever air bubbles, as they seem to cause the opposite phenomenon - ie; light markings on prints, dark on negatives. My marks were vice versa.

 

Regardless, I've marked the two reels and will try them on rolls of film that are of no consequence; grey card tests or something. What I find funny is that I've had no problems using my fathers old reels, c. 1970 patterson, and they have none of the flaws this newer pair does. The older ones are certainly a different grade of plastic, as one can see in the developing trays as well. much more rigid.

 

It is tricky when problems arise when you're changing a few variables - ie; film, developer, and reels as it were. It's tricky to pinpoint where the errors are occuring! With all that said, I'm very happy with the results of the 400tx in FG7, so it's been worth it!

 

Thank you very much for your comments and ideas,

 

 

Marco