Pink negs with FP4+ in 120, what gives?

[oskar_ojala]

I have used very little FP4+ in 35 mm and that was long ago. Now that

I did get more seriously into MF last year, I started shooting it in

120 (it costs half as much as APX100 here, for 35 mm the prices are

reversed...). I've developed a few rolls in Rodinal, with dilutions

ranging from 1+25 to 1+100. Everything is good, I've made some images

I really like etc. but I can't figure out why I'm still having a

slight pink stain on my negs after washing and drying. I fix 4-5 min.

in Agefix (diluted to "rapid"), wash 20-25 min. in water 20+ C (68+

F) and agitate frequently, dump the films in water etc. so that there

would be no fixer on the reels. The pink stain becomes milder during

the wash, but does not completely disappear. There's no problem

printing.

 

Now I'm asking you, what gives? Surely my washing can't be too short

with too few water changes and my fixer has been fresh - checked and

double checked with diluting new fixer, new bottles of concentrate

etc. I haven't had this problem with any other film, even TMX, whose

pinkishness comes up every now and then in the forums is gray.

[eric rose]

Didn't buy your film in San Francisco did you LOL? I just processed a bunch of FP4 with a 2.5 stop push in HC110 and the negs came out the usual color. Maybe it's the developer. One thing I do is pre-soak my film for about 4 min's prior to development.

[michael_chini]

Films will take on a different tint depending upon the developer used (or fixer or both). Also, sometimes 120 and 35mm have slightly different tints since they may be produced at different facilities or have different anti-halation backings (120 has a paper backing while 35mm and 220 do not). Bottom line - don't worry about it. Your images are fixed and washed properly (and print fine) which is all that matters. If you absolutely must have the stain removed, try a pre-developer water bath for 1 - 2 min.; after fixing, use a 5 min. soak in distilled water and then wash in Permawash before your final rinse. Good luck.

 

MC

[jimvanson]

Different film bases may have slight tints to them. Ilfords FP4+ base may have an inherent pinkish base. Just to be sure I hadn't screwed up I'd personally refix & rewash the negs (or at least an unloved/unwanted frame). Then compare the refixed to the original.<p>By the by, Ilford says not to presoak their films...it strips away magic parts of the negs coating that assists in (among other things) controling both over-foaming of the developer and airbells on the negs...

[lex_jenkins]

If this keeps up I'm gonna devote one entire forum just to the problems of tinted negatives.

[oskar_ojala]

I din't buy in SF, bought in Finland so I doubt it's the same batch! I do pre-soak for 1 min., to swell the emulsion and minimise the risk of thermal shock (and some films require it, so I keep my processing consistent). I don't really have any suitable FP4+ to compare in other formats, I could of course buy a few 35 mm rolls or 4x5" sheets, shoot and develop to see how it turns out. Of course I could skip the pre-soak and see what that does...

 

Obviously I'm most concerned with archival properties; the prints look great and are easy to print so no problems there. I've done extensive testing on strips I cut of the ends of the film before development and didn't come out any wiser, so now I'm asking you all.

 

Lex; film tints are indeed a common issue, but I've never had a problem with APX25/100/400, Delta400/3200, TMX, PanF+ and even HP5+ with similar processing. Maybe it's time for me to learn something new about films... :)

[john_stockdale2]

Oskar, as time goes by, more films are showing pink tints after what used to be normal fixation. My most recent roll of (new) Tri-X showed pink tint, but the previous rolls (old emulsion) over 30 years have not. Using a wash aid (sodium sulphite) is often recommended, or just fix more.

[james phillips]

Just an educated guess here, but I believe that different developers affect the outcome (color) of FP4+ and other films. My personal experience is that FP4+ comes out less pinkish when I use HC-110. I also notice this quite a bit with Tri-X sheet film. The developer comes out of the tank with a slightly pink color.

 

I believe that it is the amount of sodium sulfite in the developer and the fact that I use quite a diluted ratio (thus a longer time in the developer) that causes this.

 

Just my observations.

[oskar_ojala]

I just developed a roll of the current TMX in Rodinal and used the same fixer as my last roll of FP4+ (the fixer was fresh). The TMX (and fixer) was bright pink after generous (5+ min) fixing, but 5 min. of washing removed all of the pink and after 20-25 min. of washing and subsequent drying there's no trace of pink so this is definitely film specific. I'm wary of further fixing of FP4+, since 4 min. is quite generous already.

 

Based on your answers, I'd interpret the possible causes to be 1) this is a property of the film+dev combination 2) the pre-soak might change something and maybe 3) some variation in washing could be tried. I must test these, but does anyone who soups up FP4+ with Rodinal get similar experinces?

[jimvanson]

Oskar...if you have now also experienced a pinkness problem albeit a wash curable problem, with your TMX, well I'm going to suggest you attempt you fix with a different brand or container of <b>stock</b> fixer. Sounds to me that your fixer stock could very well be contaminated (or otherwise nfg). Other thing I want to suggest but feel stupid doing so is; are you sure you're mixing your present fixer stock properly? Hope this helps...jim

[oskar_ojala]

Jim,

 

Not a stupid suggestion at all; one must have care with darkroom processes to ensure uniform quality. However, my fixer (Agefix) is correctly diluted (1+5 for rapid fixing) and the volume of film processed is well below recommended usage (and the fixer is not old). The first time I got pink FP4+ I bought a new bottle of fixer to try it but got none the wiser. Obviously, Kodak says that a pink stain is not ok, but the stain is even and washes away very rapidly plus the film base is very clear, which I think doesn't make it as clear cut as it should be. A pH and silver content test would be nice, but I don't have any indicators. I'll probably buy a fresh bottle of fixer and try it, since it's something that gets used anyway.

[rothelle]

After the fixer I do a Hypo wash for two mintues. This take way all the pink stuff on negs. Then I do a photo flo wash for 1 mintue to minimizes water marks and drying streaks.

You should always have clear negs unless you are using the black & white C41 type of films.

[jimvanson]

Oskar...did you ever solve the problem? Any more insight?

[oskar_ojala]

Jim,

 

I've been busy so I haven't been able to do some tests. I did develop a roll of APX100, though, and did

a fixer tests on parts of the unprocessed film using the same fixer I used for the FP4+ (and which hasn't been

used since; I got rid of the part which I used for TMX) and new fixer mixed from stock. The new fixer cleared

the film slightly faster, but at 2 min. both pieces of film were equally clear. (Using the new fixer for the APX

didn't give me any problems, but I've never had any color casts or other problems with APX)

 

I'll try to shoot a new 120 roll of FP4+ asap and fix very carefully to see how it goes...I'm starting to believe

that the stain is a property of this film and processing, but I'm not going to say for sure before I get more

tests done.

[jimvanson]

<i>..the stain is a property of this film and processing...</i><p>Sounds like it could be that. Please update us if you test further...I'm quite interested in the whole problem...tkx...jim

[oskar_ojala]

Just got time to do a new roll of FP4+. I diluted new Agefix from stock (ok, I processed a roll of APX100 in it, but one roll of 35 mm film in 6 dl of fix doesn't really make much difference). Processing was as previously, ie. described earlier in this thread. Result: after 4 min. of fixing the film had an obvious pink cast, which remained unchanged (apparently) even after 3 min. of additional fixing. After 20 min. of washing and subsequent drying (I don't use hypo-clear), there is either no stain or it is very very slight (must compare on a light table). A thing to note is that the fixer didn't get very colored during fixer, in contrast to TMX which made the fixer pink too. It's interesting to note that my friend who uses Ilford HC complains his fixer (Agefix) get bright blue after fixing, regardless of film type (apparently no stain on the film, though), so there are interesting colors to achieve in the darkroom...

 

I'm going to buy a new bottle of Ilford Hypam and try with it. It will take a few weeks before I have time to do this (I've got other projects now), but when I'm done I'll post my results here.

[lex_jenkins]

A few possibilities, based on my own observations and summarizing what others have observed, including what I've gleaned from other websites:

 

1. Residual tint is a byproduct of anti-halation and, likely, sensitizing dyes.

 

2. Dyes may be between emulsion and film base in some films/formats, incorporated into the film base in others. This affects soluability.

 

3. Film manufacturers are unlikely to issue notices every time they alter these dyes. What worked last year may not work in the future.

 

4. Alkalinity seems to help flush out dyes. If it's not in the developer, fixer (rapid fixers seem to be acidic) or water (I have somewhat alkaline well water), you may be stuck with some residual tint while others report no problems.

 

5. It doesn't really matter anyway. Other than adding a tiny fraction of density that *might* involve exposure changes during printing (or scanning), residual tint can safely be ignored.

[oskar_ojala]

Lex, good points. Allow me to comment based on my observations:

 

1. Possible. The pre-wash gets a very strong color, the developer doesn't really get color and the fixer gets a little color. But that doesn't mean all dyes would go off.

 

2. An interesting point is that the TMX pink stain washed off much quicker than the FP4+: in 5 min. the TMX base was completely neutral, while after 20 min. the FP4+ still has a very slight pink cast (yes I checked on the light table). The final wash and the agitation used seems to influence these stains a lot.

 

3. Quite true.

 

4. I use tap water and haven't tested it. Frankly I haven't done chemistry since high school and now my physics skills are way better; I'm mostly operating with a "if it works, don't fix it" attitude when it comes to developing. But there might be some point with the alkalinity.

 

5. The base is very clear. Let me get this straight: I've printed top quality 12x12" fiber (didn't have the oppurtunity to do larger) with zero problems: enlarging times are short, contrast is good and the tonality and look beats TMX every time, so my concerns are really with archivality.

 

Currently, I have two theories: either there's something horribly wrong with my fixer, or the pink cast is part of the deal. Obviously, I'd prefer to believe in the latter and the thought of all of the fixer being bad sounds a bit weird. But when I get the Hypam and the time to shoot some frames, I'll try that and post here.

[oskar_ojala]

I've got around to develop a few rolls today. I bought new Ilford Rapid Fixer and opened and mixed a suitable amount of it just for this. I developed a roll of FP4+ 120, as well as Delta 100 and Delta 400 (both Deltas in DD-X, the Fp4+ was done just as I've done in the past, described in this thread). Film was fresh, fixer was fresh, fixer was of other brand than previously and I gave a generous 5 min. of fixing agitating 5 sec. every 30 sec. Result: visible pink stain!

 

It washed off nicely, but changing the fixer changed nothing: the negs look great, the pink stain was there and slowly washed away (there might be a very slight stain left, I didn't compare to anything). The Deltas did not have any stain. I think it's safe to assume that the stain is part of the deal, since my processing and fixing has been on the safe side regarding manufacturer instructions.

[johan_bolmsjo]

I reasently developed a 120 roll of FP4+ in D76 and fixing with Ilford Rapid Fixer. My result is the same as yours (slightly pink). A 135 FP4+ neg on the other hand seems to be slightly blue. I have not printed yet, but do not expect any problems from this slight colouration:) I might have been worried if it had been really pink.