Mixing and using Vitamin C developers

[kc_dougherty]

I have been reading a lot lately about Vitamin C developers and the

formulas of Patrick Gainer in particular. I read his article on

www.unblinkingeye.com and have been reading up on the ingredients. I

currently use D-76 almost exclusively but I like the idea of being

able to mix the chemistry myself both from a freshness standpoint and

an economical one (as well as being a more environmentally

responsible one). The use of the sodium hydroxide (lye) bothers me a

little. How hard is it to mix and store? I try not to spill too much

developer but do get it on my hands and clothing from time to time.

 

I did a little more reading on the web and discovered Chris Patton's

E-76 Film Developer. It has no sodium hydroxide and the other

ingredients seem pretty tame in comparison. How does it work compared

to the stand-by D-76 and the exalted (tried it but could never get

really satisfactory results with it) X-tol? Is there a way to get

around the use of the lye in Patrick Gainer's formula? I've done some

reading on the web about sodium hydroxide and it seems like really

nasty stuff.

 

The films I use are Kodak's T-Max family (mostly the 100), some Tri-X

and some Tech Pan (mostly processed with D-76. Has anyone tried the

Vitamin C developers (Gainer's and Patton's) with those films? Are

you happy with the results overall? Right now, I think I'm leaning

toward Chris Patton's formula because it doesn't have the sodium

hydroxide.

 

KC

[nicholas_t.]

Part of beauty in Pat's developers is that there is no sulphite. So you don't have any of sulphite's reducing effect on the grain.<p/>

And yes there is a way to use Gainer developers without the lye. The best way to use his developers is to mix them two part. They keep better this way anyhow. Developing agents and Vit C in one bottle and activator (alkaline component) in another.<p/>

So, if you mix in 40gms of Vitamin C and 1 gm (half a tsp) of Phenidone to 500ml of water. You will have to mix the Phenidone first into isopropyl alcohol (or methanol) first. 1 gm dissolves well into 100mls. Phenidone does not mix into water very well. You put this in one bottle.<p/>

If you are doing this for the first time it is advisable to use less ingredients proportionally. So, one quarter of the amount of everything might be less daunting...<p/>

The alkaline component can be anything you like, Borax, Carbonate (remember to use a water stop if using NaCO3) or Kodalk (Metaborate) or the Borax/Lye buffer. You will have to get the individual times first, and the right amount of course. The easiest is Carbonate (pH plus in US or pH increase in NZ) 1 tsp per litre of working solution. Just put it in when ready to develop. It dissolves easily. With Borax you need at least a TBS per litre. Preferrably one TBS + 1 tsp. You might need to mix this up beforehand as it doesn't dissolve too well in 21 degree C water. The Borax gives finer grain and takes a little longer to develop.<p/>

So, 20mls of A and your part B can be added just before developing.<p/>

This developer is very fine grain and works well with traditional films, should be fine with T-max. It keeps well too. I have got a 100ft roll of Tech Pan I want to work with. I am thinking about 10mls per litre of part A and the Borax part B for this notorious stuff.

[bob_lazzarini]

nicholas,

 

this sounds very intriguing, especially with TechPan. Once upon a time I use to use Technidol with it, but as of late it's hard to find, and not the least a tad pricey.

 

hopefully you'll post your experiences with this vitamin a developer.

 

thanks!

[dean_williams]

Hello KC;

I use Gainer's formula for most of my film. The first batches I made were with the lye version, which worked great. About a week after I mixed up the sodium hydroxide solution I found some sodium carbonate at the hardware store and have used it ever since. It's the stuff you put in a hot tub to raise the PH. I use the Metol-ascorbic acid-sodium carbonate formula and for me it works very much like D76. I mix it in quart sized batches with the Metol-ascorbic acid solution in one container and the sodium carbonate solution in another and it will keep for at least two months this way. (The first batch I made was a gallon of each part and it took two months to use it up.) It may keep a lot longer but I've always used it up before two months have passed. It's easy to mix, and quite safe. I checked MSDS sheets for each of the ingredients just too see what I was getting into and found no serious hazards (some folks have skin problems with metol, though). I started out using recommended times for D76 and ended up reducing my dev time 15-20 % depending on what I rated the film and contrast needs. I shoot mostly Plus X and Tri X in 35mm and 120 and Agfa in 4x5, with some Ilford thrown in now & then. Anything that works well with D76 has worked well with the vit C (for me). With the old formula Plus X I got a blue green tint on the film but it didn't seem to affect the image except for a slight increase in print exposure. I don't get this tint on the new Plus X. Oh yeah...It's cheap. Really cheap.

 

Hope you get something from all this ramble, KC.

 

Regards

 

Dean

[jordan_w.]

Nicholas' comments are right on. From what I understand, Chris Patton's formula is a close approximation of Xtol. Gainer's formula also uses phenidone (or metol) and ascorbic acid as developing agents, like Xtol, but there is no sodium sulfite. This is a big difference -- and it also makes Gainer's formulas easier and cheaper to mix IMO.

 

I've been using the Gainer Vitamin C formula for a while. Mine is slightly different from Nicholas' and is the same as in the unblinkingeye.com article, just with different concentrations in the stock solutions. I make up a Stock A concentrate with 10 g vitamin C and 10 ml of a 1% solution of phenidone in alcohol, done up to 500ml with water. Stock B contains 30.5 g borax and 8.5 g sodium hydroxide, also in 500ml of water. I mix up the stock solutions with water in the ratio 1+1+8 right before use. Like Dean, I've found that I can use the D76 times minus about 15%.

 

I've used it with Tri-X in 120 and the results were great -- the negs looked a bit foggy at first but ended up printing beautifully. I also made some nice large (equivalent of 15x15") prints from PanF and APX100 in 120 that were grainless. FP4+ and HP5+ in 35mm look good.

 

If you are edgy about using sodium hydroxide (lye), you can use sodium metaborate to replace the borax/lye combination. In my formula above, replace those two ingredients with an amount of sodium metaborate equivalent to 1.3 times the weight of borax you would have used. The carbonate version will work as well. All of these alkalis are just buffer systems -- used to achieve a solution with the correct pH. Borates and carbonates are common buffers in biochemistry as well as photography.

[andreas_weber]

Concerning Chris Pattons E-76:

I tried it first a few months ago and am now using no other developer anymore. I shoot Ilfords Delta 100 and 400 and with them E-76 results in very fine graininess with good to very good acutance, good speed yield and a pleasing tonal scale. What could one ask more?

After the first tests to determine the development times I made two little modifications to the formula, though. First, the developer is very active; E-76 1+1 works about as fast as D-76 stock. To bring it down to "normal" I cut the amount of borax in half (5 g/l instead of 10 g/l). And while I was at messing up a perfectly good developer I decided to half the sodium sulfite, too, according to recommendations to use less sodium sulfite for T-Grain or Delta films. I am *very* satisfied with the results for those two films, but of course the original formula might suit other films better.

 

Good Luck!

[nicholas_t.]

Comparing E76 and the Gainer Dev's the question is perhaps not, 'which is the best developer?' but more, 'why use sulphite if we don't have to?'. Vitamin C developers have an inherent capabilty for preservation. In my mind, among photographic developers that makes it unique. Especially, considering Sulphite's capacity for disolving silver grains.<p/>

Bob, I have loaded up some Tech pan and I'll let you know tomorrow how I get on with the times and results.

[kc_dougherty]

Thank you for all the information. I am looking forward to trying it. My high school chemistry is very rusty and I am reading and re-reading the posts and Patrick's article. The film developer tests to find my preferred speed and developing time should be fun. I may be back with some more questions but this has been very helpful and enlightening. Please let me know what your Tech Pan tests reveal. It is a great film and I have had good reasonably good luck (the contrast can run away with itself if you are not careful) with it in D-76. I find that I am more inclined to shoot it (TP) when I can process it in a developer that I always have on hand (D-76). I also have a bulk roll of TP and am having fun with it.

 

KC

[kc_dougherty]

just want to make sure I understand this (my French teacher used to say that the only stupid question is the one not asked). Nicholas in his posting wrote about Parts A & B ("So, 20mls of A and your part B can be added just before developing"). Do they get mixed together and used as a single solution? It's a stupid question but I just want to be clear. How long is the life of the mixed solution? Are we talking one shot or could I use it for several rows in the space of an hour or so? I use a water stop anyway.

 

"I use the Metol-ascorbic acid-sodium carbonate formula"

Dean, would the Phenidone solution work just as well?

 

Jordan, is the 1% solution of phenidone in alcohol the same as the one in Patrick's article?

 

Thank you for the help. I am really looking forward to this. Any thoughts on Vitamin C print developers?

 

Thanks again, I really appreciate the info and the feedback.

 

KC

[nicholas_t.]

KC, I wasn't very clear, yes one solution. I say you can mix it up just before use because say, adding a tsp of Carbonate can be added just before you pour in the developer. BTW, as Jordan has found out, the Vitamin C dev's do not work as divided developers. This is because (according to Kodak (Patrick told me)) Vitamin C developers work as surface developers with low or no levels of sulphite.<p/>

 

>"I use the Metol-ascorbic acid-sodium carbonate formula" Dean, would >the Phenidone solution work just as well?<p/>

 

I can answer this too if Dean doesn't mind (I've used both) - yes. There are subtle differences, however, Phenidone has more speed, (very) slightly higher fog. Metol, has (this is *very* subjective) slightly higher accutance. They are similarly active however, but you will still need to test for individual times because of the difference in speed and fog. <p/>

 

>Jordan, is the 1% solution of phenidone in alcohol the same as the >one in Patrick's article?<p/>

 

I shouldn't answer this because Jordan's the chemist! But I will 'cause I'm here writing, and procrastinating (not doing the work I should). Pat's mixture is a 0.8 % mixture, which is for all intents and purposes a 1% solution. It is not harmful to include slightly more Phenidone when mixing developers.<p/>

[nicholas_t.]

Vitamin C Print developers...<p/>

I've used the basic metol (w/o HQ) version listed in the article for about 8 months now as my main developer. It is really easy to make, is a slowish acting developer and medium low contrast (read subtle). Because of the low sulphite they do not last much longer than a two or three hours. That said, it is remarkably consistant during the time they work until they lose puff.<p/>

For my last 2 printing sessions I have been adulterating this mixture with Chlorhydroquinone for a bit more grunt. It does work, however I don't have the concentrations right just yet and having some unconsistant results. I think I might just use HQ next time...<p/>

Having a developer last two hours is actually useful. It puts a cap on the time spent in the darkroom and if you really need another lot, it's so easy (and cheap on the pocket) to mix that you can easily do it in about 30 secs.

[nicholas_t.]

What can I say, but... It's green!<p/>

First time user here. I tried a 1/4 mixture first (too slow) and then the mixture I proposed above. 10mls per litre of Vitamin C mixture and 16gms per litre of Borax, 4 tsps worth. 21C and one minute initial agitation with 7 secs every minute after.<p/>

Times look like 11-12 minutes. I prefer 11 minutes. I am trying to take into account very low fb+f and the deceptive contrast in an apparently thin neg. Also that I developed only a small strip. So that time is an approximation for a 24 roll. Will print up tonight.

[nicholas_t.]

I seem to be hogging this thread :-)<p/>

I have just finished my third test and apparently the base is brown, not green according to my girlfriend. Strange stuff Tech-pan, I got good results but I think an EI of 32-40 is more like it in the Vit C/Phenidone. The film is super responsive (this is probably old news to most, but it's new to me) to development. The maximum black is not quite fully developed and there still seems to be at an above level of contrast. A super compensating developer is really what is needed. Perhaps a 2 bath? Standing development is probably out of the question as I remember reading that this film is prone to bromide drag. 10 minutes is about right for EI 25 and about 11 for EI 32-40 in the half strength developer I proposed above, 10mls per litre VC-pheni mixture with 4 tsps of borax per litre.<p/>

I think I need to spend a bit (quite a bit) more time with this film before being able to quantatively say whether it is usable (user friendly-ish?), in this developer, for everyday use.<p/>

BTW, I cranked the enlarger right to the top and through my (admittedly crappy) focus finder I could not see a ounce of grain - not a squidgen.

[bob_lazzarini]

nicholas,

 

As far as I'm concerned you're not hogging the thread, instead you're providing some hard earned experience to share. Thanks!

 

BTW, TechPan is amazing, isn't it. Grain? What Grain?

 

After tads of experimentation with this pricey, but priceless film, I'm still stuck with pricey and hard to get Ethol's TEC.

 

Best of luck with your experiments. I wish I had the time!

[kc_dougherty]

Thank you for all the information. I bought some Vitamin C powder yesterday and have some Phenidone on order from Photographers Formulary. I am looking forward to doing this!

 

KC

[jordan_w.]

Sorry for the delayed reply KC. As Nicholas stated, my 1% solution is different from Gainer's 0.8% solution. I like to keep my numbers round and work with 1s, 10s, etc. hence my choice. A key choice for me was to use stock solutions I could mix in the 1+1+8 ratio -- it makes mixing easier: 100ml of each stock, then make up to 1000ml with water.

 

If you don't have access to a good balance, the metol version might be preferable. Any errors or inconsistencies in weighing out the larger quantities of metol will be smaller, relatively speaking, than in weighing out tiny quantities of phenidone. Your mileage may vary, of course.

[kc_dougherty]

Thank you for the information. My stuff came from Photographer's Formulary this morning and I can't wait to shoot some film, mix the developer and try it out. I don't have a balance but I do have a scale used for weighing out chemicals. I mix my own fixer from time to time and I've been using it for that. When someone was cleaning out their darkroom to move, he gave me the scale since he wasn't going to be needing it any longer. I'll probably try both versions (Phenidone and Metol) but wanted to start out with the Phenidone. This should be a wonderful learning experience.

 

Thanks again for all the information! I really do appreciate it.

 

KC