Hasselblad 500elm

[cfg02]

Hi i am thinking of buying this Hasselblad 500elm but the mirror and the back shutter is open and the camera is in the o posistion its not tested should i take a chance on it?

And is the Hasselblad 500elm motor loud And can i use 120 film with a 220 film back?

Edited May 6 by cfg02

[arthur_gottschalk]

Unless the price of this camera is VERY cheap I'd forget about it and find a better one. As far asI know, the ELM cameras are not easy to repair these days. 

[orsetto]

The motorized bodies can be an excellent, money saving entry point into the Hasselblad system for some buyers today (ironically they were the most desirable models that came with a heavy price premium during the height of studio film photography). Unfortunately they are looked down upon today, mostly due to misinformation and the siren lure of "all mechanical" cameras. OTOH, this means you can buy a motorized body for a fraction of the cost of the manual-wind Hasselblads: depending on your personality and use case, they can even be nicer to use overall.

In answer to the specific question about the operating condition of the pictured 500elm: this is impossible to determine without a demonstration with battery installed. Yes, the camera can hang open this way under certain circumstances solely due to battery drain, and putting a new battery in does often reset things perfectly with no issue. However, the camera might also be defective and stuck, requiring expensive (or unavailable) repair. Given the scarcity of techs willing to repair motor Hasselblads, I would not risk such an example unless the price is so cheap you won't mind if the camera is dead on arrival.

Any seller with a brain who wants to offload a motor Hasselblad at a good price will spend the $20 for a 9v battery adapter so they can verify it functions properly to potential buyers. Unverified, I wouldn't offer more than $70 (body only) today. This set, which includes the A24 film back and new-version magnifying viewfinder, would be worth risking more money if you want those pieces (A24 can load 120 film if you're careful, and that magnifying hood with diopter adjustment is quite nice if you don't mind that it can't fold down). The hood and A24 and untested ELM would be worth risking approx $160: if the body is bad, you still got a good price on the other parts.

Aside from this particular example, lets examine a few myths that have sprung up over the past few years. In terms of durability and mechanics, the motorized Hasselblads are NOT any "less capable" than mechanical bodies of the same vintage. Your chances of acquiring a problem-free 500el are much better than your chances of finding a problem-free 500c, and your odds improve as you move up to newer models like ELM, ELX, and 553. The price differential can be enormous: I've bought ELMs for less than half the cost of my CMs (and all of my "mint" CMs needed expensive repairs soon after purchase, while my ELM, ELX and 553 just keep chugging along unfazed).

While the motorized 'blads are quite reliable and durable, it is true that repair techs have begun refusing to service them. It isn't simply a matter of them being "too complicated to service": none of these techs had any issue repairing them when they were popular. The issue is more about the techs protecting themselves from potential abuse and financial losses: the motorized Hasselblads are now on the same "blacklist" as many other once-legendary cameras, now considered too risky for techs to work on. Parts are scarce, and repair times extended, which often leads to customers abandoning the camera and refusing to pay the repair cost. This wastes the tech's time and backs up their already crushing workload, so they have decided to just not accept certain camera models for repair that have developed a reputation for problematic owners.

The good news is, the motorized 'blads are so cheap you can just sell a failed one and buy another that works fine for much less than the typical repair cost on a manual wind mechanical Hasselblad. And again, I'd stress that a fully operational motorized 'blad is actually more robustly built and less likely to fail/need repair than a similar all-mechanical 'blad. Like other vintage camera systems with modern-day "cult followings", younger cult members may not be aware the "elegance" of the manual-wind Hasselblad is only skin-deep. Under the glamorous shell, the crank-wind Hasselblads have unbelievably convoluted Rube Goldberg mechanisms, which were intentionally designed to require frequent service. This service cost is baked-in, and was taken for granted by the pro photographers who used the system back in its heyday.

Uninitiated Hasselblad enthusiasts are blissfully unaware of these inevitable, excruciating maintenance costs. Several of the top Hasselblad repair techs in North America have passed away and/or retired recently, leaving fewer and fewer options with ever-increasing wait times and fees. So its a bit goofy to harp on the "repairable forever because its all mechanical" classic cameras as "always" being superior to their motorized or electronic sisters. As with many things in life, its not so simple: the fact that something "can be repaired" doesn't necessarily mean "can be repaired easily near me" or "in less than six months out of my hands" or "at a cost that wouldn't equal installing a Tesla charger in my garage". Its relative to how much you want to spend in time or money should repair become necessary (and with Hasselblad, everything BUT the motorized bodies will croak on you at the worst possible time).

So, the "repairability" issue of of i.e. the 500elm vs 500cm can be a non-issue or fall in your favor if you choose the motor model. Your cash outlay is less than half to begin with, likelihood of mechanical failure is less, and if your ELM does break replacement cost is often less than repair cost on a 500cm.

Moving on to other ways in which the motorized Hasselblads are often misunderstood or shunned: size, weight, noise, battery availability.  Lets start with size/weight: yes, the 500elm etc are taller and heavier than 500cm etc. But this difference will almost entirely evaporate the minute you switch to any lens other than the standard 80mm Planar. With the 80mm mounted, the 500cm etc are quite compact and somewhat less awkward to handle than the 500elm etc. Switch the 80mm for the popular 50mm Distagon wide angle, and all bets are off. The 500cm becomes an awkward, front heavy PITA to handle while the 500elm seems barely any different. This is less apparent with the slightly lighter 150mm, but the 500elm still has advantages in compositional stability (auto wind and auto mirror return simplify matters vs viewfinder blackout and manual winding of the 500cm). The size/weight issue is directly affected by your lens choices and photography tendencies: the ELM vs CM advantages often cancel each other out.

Re the motorized Hasselblads being louder: here again, its relative to your use case, and the manual wind 500cm isn't exactly discreet either. If you need to shoot in a church or museum, yes, the ELM will be a bit noisier when the motor winds on.  But here's a gotcha: the manual-wind models like 500cm emit a cacaphony of clanking zurping klanking claptrap themselves! The extended weird soundtrack of the manual film advance is actually more irritating to many bystanders than the quicker,  more uniform sound of the motor winding in the electric 'blads. So again, relative to your use case and personal preference.

The "battery issue" is a non-issue, period. True, older models like EL/ELM/ELX were designed around a proprietary rechargeable NiCad that was notoriously flaky in its day and no longer available. However, these models will quite happily run off a standard 9v radio battery using an inexpensive adapter: problem solved. Later motor 'blads like 553elx and 555eld came from the factory with redesigned battery compartments taking 5 ordinary AA alkalines, and if you hunt patiently you can even find ELM and ELX bodies that owners asked Hasselblad to update with the AA battery tray. Personally, I find the old models with 9v battery adapter to be noticeably lighter than the later models with 5 AAs installed, so there are advantages to both versions.

Perhaps the most staggering price differential between motor and mechanical Hasselblads comes into play if you decide you want the advantages of the larger newer "gliding mirror" design. This was first offered in the 500elx, and continued with the 553 and 555. The revised mirror is much less common in the manual-wind bodies: only the 501cm and 503cw have that feature, and so sought after they are priced at double or more the cost of a 500cm or 503cx. Meanwhile the forgotten unloved 500elx will give you the same improved mirror for about one quarter the price of a 501cm. Worth pondering if you'd prefer the better viewfinder experience for tele and macro work, and improved durability (the older mirror mounting often drifts in accuracy with age, requiring disassembly for new support pads to be installed).

Finally, its worth repeating to Hasselblad newcomers: there are NO "bargains" in the land of Hasselblad. You may be able to pick up a motorized body for much less cost than a manual body, and an A24 back for much less than an A12. However, the elephant in the room must always be kept in mind: inevitable and recurring repair costs. The lens shutters will die on you when you least expect, requiring very expensive repairs. The film backs will go out occasionally, requiring frame advance servicing and new light seals installed (the seals can be DIY replaced if you are handy with small screws).

There is no point to investing in Hasselblad and facing these ongoing service costs unless you are quite sure you will make use of interchangeable lenses and multiple film backs. If all you want is a vintage "pretty" 6x6 film camera with 80mm (or 75mm) Planar lens, do yourself a favor and opt for the much simpler Rolleiflex TLR.  These are also frightfully expensive to repair, but you usually only need to do it once since everything is integrated in-camera. If you can live without the Planar name ring on your lens, there are many brands and models of excellent TLR that are much less expensive than Rollei (Yashica, Minolta, Mamiya, etc).

Edited May 11 by orsetto

[arthur_gottschalk]

FWIW,  I sold my 553 and bought a 555 on the advice of Ernst Wildi, who wrote that it is a worthwhile and recommended upgrade. 

[orsetto]

The 555ELD is indeed the ultimate evolution of integral-motor Hasselblad bodies, but it comes at quite a cost premium. Still a significant bargain vs the equivalent manual-wind 503CWD, but the 555 typically sells for double the cost of the 553 (triple the cost of a 500ELX).

Aside from dedicated electronic contacts to couple with some models of digital back, the primary upgrade to the 555 is build quality: it supposedly has the most robust winding and mirror mechanisms in Hasselblad history (presumably done so the camera could withstand the enormously higher volume of exposure cycles when using a digital back vs film).

How significant this build upgrade would be in todays second hand market is arguable. On one hand, it is undeniably more rugged, OTOH, the 555 is essentially an orphaned model with bespoke mechanisms not entirely shared with the far more common 500ELX and 553ELX. So in the off chance your 555ELD develops a problem requiring service, it would be even harder to find a cooperative technician than for the already-blacklisted older models. 

The scarcity and price premium for 555ELD over the more common 500ELX and 553ELX are factors: whether the "bulletproof" 555 is worth double or more the cost of the already quite rugged 553 is up to the individual photographer (and perhaps whether they will use a digital back). Most vintage digital backs in Hasselblad V mount (and recent Hasselblad CFv backs) do not require electric contacts to work (since they were engineered for compatibility with the pre-existing prehistoric 500cm). The contacts in the 555ELD and 503CWD just simplify things a little, depending on the particular back model attached.

Edited May 15 by orsetto

[q.g._de_bakker]

2 minutes ago, orsetto said:

[...] The contacts in the 555ELD and 503CWD just simplify things a little, depending on the particular back model attached.

The 503 CWD does not have contacts. It is the same as the other manual-wind 500 series models.

The added D indicated a package deal, including a Hasselblad 16MP digital back, and a chromed transport crank instead of the regular black.

Apart from the crank and CWD badge, the body is the same as the 503 CW.

[Niels - NHSN]

On 5/6/2024 at 8:51 PM, cfg02 said:

Hi i am thinking of buying this Hasselblad 500elm but the mirror and the back shutter is open and the camera is in the o posistion its not tested should i take a chance on it?

I would not buy ANY Hasselblad product untested without a clear and trouble free return privilege as well as having personal confidence in my own ability to test it within the limits of the return window.

Hasselblad products are finicky and just not something you gamble on, unless cheap enough to recoup the expense selling the lot for parts. 

The sound of the motor is "time appropriate": Meaning; not silent. I'd imagine you could find examples on youtube.

I don't know where you live, but if in EU, I can recommend this manufacturer located in Madrid, Spain who makes some excellently manufactured AAA adapters that can use either 5 rechargeables (1.2V) or 4 alkaline (1.5V) batteries to provide the 6V required: https://serviciosfotograficosbn.com/hasselblad/hasselblad-battery-adapter-500-el-elm-elx-6v5-batteries-12v-15v-aaa-copia/.

No affiliation, just happy with a well made product manufactured locally.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[orsetto]

Hasselblad 500EL, 500ELM, 500ELX, 553ELX and 555ELD Battery Chamber Versions and Battery Adapter Options:

While we're on a currently active thread re the integral motor Hasselblads, some pics and notes of my cameras showing the different versions of battery chamber available, and the assorted adapter options for operating the older models using ordinary household batteries. 

Here are couple of my 500ELM and 500ELX cameras, with battery compartments uncovered to show the differences. Top shows my first 500ELM with the battery compartment most commonly encountered in the 500EL, 500ELM and 500ELX. It has two large round chambers, intended to house one or two of the proprietary NiCad rechargeables Hasselblad offered. These original NiCads have long since worn out, as have many examples of the external charger. Boutique battery suppliers still occasionally offer new or rebuilt clones of this battery, but theres little point today when the cameras see much less usage (and adapters for standard alkalines are more practical).

The middle and bottom pics show my secondary 500ELM and backup 500ELX, both of which were retrofitted by Hasselblad with the revised chamber that accepts five ordinary AA batteries. This configuration was standard issue on the later 553ELX and 555ELD, but a modification option for the previous models. 500ELM or ELX  bodies with the AA compartment turn up periodically: if you prefer this configuration you can save significant money over the 553ELX (which is really just the 500ELX with a new model name to promote the change to AA power). The modified ELM sells for even less, but you lose the larger improved ELX gliding mirror.  I have never seen an example of the earliest 500EL with the official AA retrofit, but there may be a few somewhere.

 

Next set of pics show the various adapters you can choose from to power the older double-barrel 500EL-ELM-ELX with standard disposable batteries. At top is the most common and least expensive, the wired two piece connecting a 9v radio battery to a dummy battery. Each piece fits into one of the two compartments. This solution works fine, but is a bit clumsy due to the separate pieces (and the stray wire makes it more difficult to lock down the already tight battery cover).

Second pic shows a more elegant one-piece "unibody" adapter for 9v radio battery. Late lamented Hasselblad guru David Odess recommended this type to me, and its worked perfectly for several years now. Third pic shows an adapter for 6v kidney shaped CR lithium battery: these are not as popular as the 9v adapters due to a tendency toward intermittent power connection. Fourth pic shows the adapter suggested by Niels above, which deploys five AAA alkalines in a dummy shell. This is the most expensive adapter type. 

One last point of consideration for some photographers: the older original Hasselblad double round battery chamber and battery cover is the far more common and simple design, vs Hasselblad's five AA chamber and revised cover that came in the 553ELX and 555ELD (see below pics). While the AA battery chamber is very convenient, the revised cover plate can be problematic. It has multiple contacts for the five AAs, which can suffer shorting failure if the foam insulation underneath decomposes or gets eaten away by battery leakage.

This newer cover is unobtainable as a spare part: if it fails you'll need to repair it somehow. I made the mistake of forgetting to remove the AA alkalines from my 553ELX for nearly a year: they leaked, ruining the inside of the cover and making for a difficult DIY repair project (getting the repaired contacts to consistently activate the battery check LEDs in the chamber was a struggle).

The older battery chamber cover is more rugged: just two large leaf spring contacts, no foam, and no battery check. It is less likely to suffer damage, because your chosen adapter bears the brunt of any leakage. Worst case, the older battery cover turns up as a second hand spare part every now and then, so replacements can be obtained.

After using all the different EL model variants, I decided my personal "sweet spot" is the early 500ELX with original proprietary battery compartment. You get the benefit of the Gliding Mirror and TTL flash circuit, with battery source flexibility and more durable/replaceable battery cover., all at a very affordable price. But the EL variants with five AA battery chamber are the easiest choice, and they do have the nice battery check LED feature.

The 555ELD stands alone at the top of the EL heap: if you need digital back contacts or extra ruggedness, it will give you that at the highest cost (tho remarkably, still quite a bit less cost than a manual wind 501cm or 503cw). As QG noted in his post, I was mistaken about the 503cwd having digital back contacts (I confused it with the ISO contact modification Hasselblad offered for their electronic 200 series cameras). The 555ELD was the sole Hasselblad V camera with factory-original digital back contacts.

Edited May 17 by orsetto

[arthur_gottschalk]

On 5/15/2024 at 1:40 PM, Niels - NHSN said:

I would not buy ANY Hasselblad product untested without a clear and trouble free return privilege as well as having personal confidence in my own ability to test it within the limits of the return window.

 

Are you speaking from experience? I've bought several  V-System cameras on Ebay and all have worked perfectly from the get-go.  I've shot hundreds of exposures with them with our problems, except for a jam or two that I created by failure to follow proper procedure. I think you are exaggerating . 

[Niels - NHSN]

16 hours ago, arthur_gottschalk said:

Are you speaking from experience?

Yes. I have worked in a shop testing the influx of second hand cameras for the past couple of years now and I see several Hasselblad kits per month.

16 hours ago, arthur_gottschalk said:

I've bought several  V-System cameras on Ebay and all have worked perfectly from the get-go.  I've shot hundreds of exposures with them with our problems, except for a jam or two that I created by failure to follow proper procedure.

So your experience is different from mine.

16 hours ago, arthur_gottschalk said:

I think you are exaggerating .

I don't see how it matters in this thread what you think. I was responding to the original poster.

Edited May 18 by Niels - NHSN

[orsetto]

Some are consistently lucky with their second hand camera purchases, others are not. The arc of such luck can also change over the years as the market changes.

The amount of risk I'll take on with a potential purchase is based on summing several factors: asking price, apparent condition, my intuition on how the seller presents themselves, and how much personal experience I have with that brand and/or model. Mostly the last: once you've developed enough knowledge of quirks, common defects, hidden defects, what can be easily DIY repaired or reset, and what typically needs expensive repairs. At that point you'll usually end up with an item that meets or exceeds your expectations.

OTOH, sometimes market trends throw everything out of whack and even expert shoppers can get burned. The overall market is in such a state right now, if you're totally new to a camera system, it is a bad time to be taking risks. Niels advice to make sure of a return/refund policy is appropriate during such periods, esp with items specifically presented as "untested" (because "untested" almost always means "broken" except for very VERY rare cases of a seller so naive they don't realize something just needs to be wound or reset or have a new battery installed). If it seems too good to be true, it usually is.

Photo.net is not a good window into what's really going on in the world of vintage camera buyers/sellers in 2024. Sadly, most gear discussions have moved from traditional organized forum archives to transitory social media sites like Reddit. Those uncurated sites are useless for any sort of traditional cumulative research, but they give an accurate picture of the current vintage camera market - and it isn't a pretty one right now. Masses and masses of transactions being driven solely by youTube and TikTok trends: the less sophisticated the buyer, the more likely they are to damage a camera in frustration before selling it on to the next trend victim.

You cannot believe the sheer quantity of unhinged newbies asking the most simple-minded questions countless times, questions they should know the answers to before even thinking of picking up a film camera. They're often overwhelmed and get sulky. The fact that almost any worthwhile vintage camera or lens you want today will almost certainly have been passed thru a couple of such doltish trendy owners should be enough to give any of us pause to really think things thru before committing to buy. We need to be more careful than ever to vet our purchases, esp if no solid return policy is in place.

Making matters worse, all this vintage gear is getting older by the minute: once-distinct reliability, durability and quirk reputations of individual brands/models have become blurred and lost as advanced age levels everything out. I.E., once upon a time, you had a much better chance of finding a fully functional Mamiya RB67 outfit than a similar Hasselblad: the Mamiya body mechanics were simpler and the lens leaf shutters did not break down as often. But enough years have passed that everything on the market is in failure mode: loads of worn out Mamiya, with techs skilled in their idiosyncrasies dwindling in availability as quickly as for Hasselblad. Not to mention, the blown Pentax 67 focal plane shutters, shorted out Bronica SQs, Mamiya 645s with trashed mirror boxes, worn out TLR film advances, and the 90% chance any lens with a leaf shutter will be barely operational. 35mm gear isn't as immune as it used to be, either: problematic Canon "A" shutters aren't getting any more reliable or repairable, the "indestructible" Nikon F3 is starting to fail right and left, classic Olympus OM is crapping out everywhere you look, and so on down the line. 

Headwinds are forming in the film supply chain that may alsohave major impact. The trendsters driving the current compulsive vintage film camera renaissance are getting seized with panic that supplies of film will soon dry up, particularly their favorite Fuji stocks. Signs are brewing that a vintage film camera selloff may occur in the next couple years as film prices increase and availability drops: if enough trendsters sour on vintage medium format pro cameras at the same time, we could see a much less constricted market than we have today.

Of course that still leaves the vexxing issue of experienced repair techs retiring en masse with no trained replacements...

Edited May 18 by orsetto

[Sandy Vongries]

One nice thing about all the grand old cameras is that they are such wonderful artifacts.  Mine still work, or did the last time I used them, but I have often envisioned a glass fronted case with all of them on display.  Usable or not, many memories reside.

[arthur_gottschalk]

On 5/18/2024 at 3:27 AM, Niels - NHSN said:

 

I don't see how it matters in this thread what you think. I was responding to the original poster.

It's called an opinion.