New Z8 questions

[ilkka_nissila]

8 minutes ago, mike_halliwell said:

So, what where Nikon thinking about to include it in the first place?

Daft!

Putting it into the video could have been the excited reaction of an employee to internal information and not checking with the higher-ups whether it was fine to release that information. Or it could be that Nikon may have changed their plans in order to let the Z9 sell some more copies now that it has more advantages over the Z8. By delaying the Z8 firmware update they can perhaps make more money. The Z8 is selling well enough without the Auto Capture. 

 

I would like to see some of the features that the Z9 got in FW 4.0 in the Z8 but auto capture is not really necessary for me personally. However, I think it is very obvious that for news agencies it would be good to have auto capture in smaller cameras than the Z9. It's easier to rig smaller cameras safely to the roof etc. The Z8 with its dual USB connectors also would lend itself well to these remote shooting applications.

Edited June 20, 2023 by ilkka_nissila

[mike_halliwell]

12 hours ago, ilkka_nissila said:

The Z8 with its dual USB connectors also would lend itself well to these remote shooting applications.

+1.

Smaller and cheaper to leave unattended, and fairly inconspicuous with something like the 26, 28 or 40mm prime.

[raczoliver]

On 6/21/2023 at 4:31 AM, mike_halliwell said:

So, what where Nikon thinking about to include it in the first place?

Management clash? Daft!

With the two comeras being so similar, I'm sure there's a lot of copy-pasting going on when writing manuals, descriptions etc. :-)

[ilkka_nissila]

I got the DJI RS 3 Mini gimbal. It doesn't officially support the Z8 but it seems to have been in use in some Nikon Z8 videos. The store salesperson was a bit unsure if it was a good fit for the camera but I bought it anyway. 

 

The tilt axis doesn't reach correct balance because the camera is too tall and there is not enough freedom of movement to correctly balance it (with 35/1.8). However, by going through all the axis, one can get to a point where it doesn't go into the red when evaluating the balance along the three axis. Calibration goes through and it appears to work correctly. But one of the balance test features does complain about the tilt axis. From what I understand being slightly off balance can lead to increased battery consumption on the gimbal. I don't think the Z8 will get on the supported list for this gimbal because of the impossibility of balancing it completely correctly.

 

I think balancing is an OK task if one uses just one camera and one lens on the gimbal but if one wants to switch lenses it can be time-consuming and something of a hassle. However, the footage that results is very steady. However, making movements takes some practice to get it right.

 

For a slightly smaller camera such as the Z6 II or even Zfc the RS 3 Mini would probably work great. For the Z8 maybe this can be used but the next model up would be a better fit, I guess.

Edited July 4, 2023 by ilkka_nissila

[mike_halliwell]

2 hours ago, ilkka_nissila said:

For a slightly smaller camera such as the Z6 II

Good to know. Thanks for testing for us!

[ilkka_nissila]

1 hour ago, mike_halliwell said:

Good to know. Thanks for testing for us!

I did more testing and came to the conclusion that the gimbal can be balanced for the Z8 and 35/1.8 but it didn't happen simply by following the instructions provided in the manufacturer's setup video. 😉 The front-back and top-down adjustment need to be adjusted together to find a combination of settings to get the tilt balance correct and to make the camera fit on the gimbal. I iterated the settings on the gimbal four times with the 35mm f/1.8 before I got everything correct and balance test gave "Excellent" grade for all three axes. 🙂 I'll write down all the positions and make a table of them so that if I change lenses, I can more quickly get it near the correct balance.

 

The 24-70/2.8 shifts balance as one zooms so the balance settings are focal length dependent (though the gimbal can still work with imperfect balance). It's also a bit tight fit to get the 24-70/2.8 on the gimbal and there was some noise and vibration when starting to use that lens after setting it up, which I take that we are near the limits. I don't think it's over the weight limit but it's clearly not within comfortable operation (although DJI do say 24-70/2.8 should be OK at least with some brands). I would have wanted to use that lens as I have a 3-stop ND filter for it and the focal range would be a good fit for gimbal use. However, I think I'll stick to the f/1.8 primes for the gimbal for now, and use longer lenses mostly from tripod (where it comes to video work). A smaller zoom lens would also work with the gimbal, but I would like the option of shallow depth of field so I'll use what I have for now.

 

Anyway: it's tricky to set up the DJI RS 3 Mini for the Z8 but it can be done. 😉

Edited July 4, 2023 by ilkka_nissila

[mike_halliwell]

22 minutes ago, ilkka_nissila said:

I did more testing and came to the conclusion that the gimbal can be balanced

Do you think the Z8 + 50mm 1.8 Z would be happy? I like the FOV....🙂

Edited July 4, 2023 by mike_halliwell

[ShunCheung]

I sure hope that my post on June 13 (2023) on this thread with a link to Jerry Ghionis' video didn't cause people to buy the wrong gimbal. After Ilkka's experience, I may opt for the non-mini DJI RS3 instead.

[ilkka_nissila]

11 hours ago, mike_halliwell said:

Do you think the Z8 + 50mm 1.8 Z would be happy? I like the FOV....🙂

I tested 35/1.8, 85/1.8 and 24-70/2.8. Both 1.8's were comfortable on the gimbal but with the 85mm it was a bit difficult to move while keeping the subject in the frame consistently. While keeping the rig stationary, the image was very stable also with the 85. I think use of a gimbal with telephotos takes more practice to keep the subject in the frame but for sure with the 35mm lens, it was easy to use once balanced. I have not yet tried the 50/1.8 on the gimbal but suspect it would be fine.

 

The 24-70 felt that the gimbal was being stretched in capability and there was a bit of a whirring noise when I started to use that. I decided it wasn't a good idea to continue with that.

 

Nikon does have lighter and smaller 40/2, 28/2.8 and 26/2.8 models which would be perfect for gimbal use. 

 

Shun, it is definitely not your fault! The larger RS 3 is too probably heavy for me so it is either the Mini or no gimbal for me. I do recommend people to think carefully which camera, lens and gimbal to choose to minimize possible back pain later on, and to get a setup that is a good fit for the gimbal. 

[mike_halliwell]

2 minutes ago, ilkka_nissila said:

the gimbal was being stretched in capability and there was a bit of a whirring noise

I remember the 'old' KS-2 gyro gimbals. They whirred too! Lifted from their website....

The units adds stabilization of an optical system weighing up to 2 pounds. Specifications: Size: 2.8" diameter x 4.5" long Weight: 1.8 lbs. Power: 115 volts, 400 Hz, 12 watts starting with 4 watts running after 4 minutes run up time. 6 hours of run time off our 7.2 amp hour power pack.

[mike_halliwell]

I picked up my Z6ii for a shoot yesterday 'cos the client wanted to keep the SD card i took the images on. He didn't want an CFx card, and I didn't want to give it to him either..£££.  So the Z6ii came out to play.

I'd got so used to the Z9s fast responsiveness, it was like ancient game-play in Amstrad basic...😱

I'm guessing the Z8 is identical to the Z9 in this respect?

Never having got hold of a Z8, is the finger grip 'bulge' to attached lens-barrel spacing the same. I know there's one fewer Fn button, but...?

Is battery consumption similar between the Z6ii and the Z8?

 

 

[ilkka_nissila]

44 minutes ago, mike_halliwell said:

I picked up my Z6ii for a shoot yesterday 'cos the client wanted to keep the SD card i took the images on. He didn't want an CFx card, and I didn't want to give it to him either..£££.  So the Z6ii came out to play.

I'd got so used to the Z9s fast responsiveness, it was like ancient game-play in Amstrad basic...😱

I'm guessing the Z8 is identical to the Z9 in this respect?

Never having got hold of a Z8, is the finger grip 'bulge' to attached lens-barrel spacing the same. I know there's one fewer Fn button, but...?

Is battery consumption similar between the Z6ii and the Z8?

The Z8 does have enough space for my long fingers around the grip. One of the Fn buttons is missing because there is no integrated vertical grip. I don't have a Z9 to compare with but my understanding is that the two are close to identical in how they perform though there are some firmware differences. I find the Z8 very comfortable to use, and quite similar to the D6. 

 

Battery use is not really an issue for me with the EN-EL15c. I can get way too many shots and too much video to be happy post-processing all that data. 😉 I have two EN-EL15c's, one b and one a. I don't think I'll be in a situation where I would use more than two on a given day but can pack more if it feels that there is a risk.

 

I tried to charge one of the EN-EL15c's using the vertical grip and an iPad charger and it didn't work. The EU is trying to make sure everyone uses USB-C for charging but not all USB-C chargeable devices can be charged with all USB chargers, unfortunately. I would need to get one of Nikon's USB chargers to be sure it'd work. I would have hoped they'd have figured it out so that all USB chargers would work even if slow, but no.

 

The MB-N12 is actually pretty clever. It can be used to charge up to two batteries using a compatible AC adapter (which I don't yet seem to have) and the two batteries are held in separate compartments so one can open the main door and replace the battery in compartment A while the camera is powered by the battery in compartment B. The grip feels really good in the hand.

[mike_halliwell]

3 minutes ago, ilkka_nissila said:

I would have hoped they'd have figured it out so that all USB chargers would work even if slow, but no.

Indeed! Many of my powerbanks work, but oddly not all carry the PD mark, but still work...?

There seems to be a 'conversation' between the two components and if there's no reply from the battery, nothing happens.

A PD enabled Powerbank will charge my EnEl18d at 20W+ if I use the normal MH-33 or in-body. (the old, discontinued EH-7P, is limited to 5v) 

PD seems to enable 5v, 9.6v or 12v charging, limited to 22w by the body. I've seen it in-body charge at 9.6v and 12v...!

[ShunCheung]

4 hours ago, mike_halliwell said:

I picked up my Z6ii for a shoot yesterday 'cos the client wanted to keep the SD card i took the images on. He didn't want an CFx card, and I didn't want to give it to him either..£££.  So the Z6ii came out to play.

I'd got so used to the Z9s fast responsiveness, it was like ancient game-play in Amstrad basic...😱

Time to buy a Z8, after the mount issues are all sorted out. 😄

You could have easily copied the files from CFx to SD.

[mike_halliwell]

5 hours ago, ShunCheung said:

You could have easily copied the files from CFx to SD.

Not so easy in the field every 20/30 mins, randomly when the biker turns up!

[ShunCheung]

1 hour ago, mike_halliwell said:

Not so easy in the field every 20/30 mins, randomly when the biker turns up!

Should be able to easily copy from CFx to SD in the field with either a Z6ii, Z7ii, D500, D850 or of course a Z8, essentially any camera body with a CFx B slot and an SD slot.

[mike_halliwell]

I'll give it a go. What is the transfer rate going to depend on?

The card read-write drive or the SD card speed?

Guess it might get quite hot?

[ilkka_nissila]

41 minutes ago, mike_halliwell said:

I'll give it a go. What is the transfer rate going to depend on?

The card read-write drive or the SD card speed?

Guess it might get quite hot?

Have you thought about just shooting on NEF for CFe and JPG for the SD card and then just delivering the jpgs? I find it difficult to believe the customer wants to work with raw images if given a choice. If there is a failed exposure on an important image, you could edit that image in camera from the raw file and write out the edited file as jpg to fix exposure issues.

 

I don't know how fast the transfer would be. But fast SD cards are quite expensive!

[ilkka_nissila]

I noticed a glitch with the Z8/RS 3 Mini combination. If I connect a usb cable between the two in order to use the DJI controls for record start/stop and the wheel to control aperture, in AF-F mode, if I touch the MF ring on the lens accidentally, it goes into MF mode and stays there. The only way I have figured out to go back to AF-F is by flicking the photo/video switch back and forth. This fixes the issue. Normally if the camera is not connected to an external device, pressing AF-ON will take the camera from MF back to AF-F mode when manual override has been used. I can use the gimbal without connecting it electrically to the camera but then I have to use the camera controls for everything. Nikon's video grip could be a solution but the Mini has the Nato mount on the left side and so I'd have to rig it so that there is an arm from the left of the gimbal to the right side where I would have the Nikon grip. Or use the gimbal in reverse orientation which seems clumsy. On some larger gimbals, Nato mounts can be found on both sides which would be great (if I had thought about it). However, adding further rigs and the Nikon grip to the setup would increase the total weight. I am also a little concerned with so many pieces attached together to get to a working setup that can be used in a hectic situation.

 

I have also been testing hand-held video with the Z8 with vertical grip attached, and VR in Sport mode. This seems to make shooting more stable compared to the camera without grip.  At least video shot with 50mm focal length looked good. However, if I have to walk backwards on busy streets while shooting video, the gimbal would definitely make for more stable footage. The question that remains for me is whether it is worth the extra hassle of having to balance the gimbal  and then be stuck to one focal length and one orientation. The Mini supports vertical orientation but of course it changes the balance settings and so it may take some time to go from one orientation to the other. 

[mike_halliwell]

30 minutes ago, ilkka_nissila said:

Have you thought about just shooting on NEF for CFe and JPG for the SD card and then just delivering the jpgs?

That's exactly what I want to do... but I can't with the Z9, 'cos there's no SD slot... and my Z6ii is a bit of a slow-slug. ☹️

The Z8 might well be my solution.

Grey Z8s are £3599 at the moment......😉

[mike_halliwell]

41 minutes ago, ilkka_nissila said:

the extra hassle of having to balance the gimbal  and then be stuck to one focal length

It would seem there should be a simple, say, Arca Swiss dovetail where balance marks for each prime focal length you have can be mounted.

It could even have custom detents so it clicks into place at each focal/balance point you preset.

Non IF zooms might be tricky though!

[ilkka_nissila]

5 hours ago, mike_halliwell said:

It would seem there should be a simple, say, Arca Swiss dovetail where balance marks for each prime focal length you have can be mounted.

It could even have custom detents so it clicks into place at each focal/balance point you preset.

Non IF zooms might be tricky though!

Yeah, I could make marks on the balance rails on the gimbals using different colors for the different prime focal lengths. There are distance scales on thos rails and the correct line could simply be colored with a permanent marker.

 

Yeah, for now, zooms are a no go for the gimbal.

[ilkka_nissila]

I noticed some minor bugs when using the vertical grip. The multi-controller on the grip doesn't fully mirror the functions of the main multi-controller like it does e.g. on the D850. When I was shooting and then reviewing photos and switching from one photo to the previous one, it would give an error message that the function isn't supported in the current state of the camera. The main multi-controller worked fine. One axis allows one to change the playback display mode (ie. is histogram shown or not, etc.) and the other switching between consequtive images. In the vertical multi-controller, sometimes it would not let me do anything (error message about camera state), at other times it would let me scroll between playback display modes and in the third case it would let me scroll between images using both directions of the vertical multi-controller but not between playback display modes. It seemed that I could land in any of these three situations with no logical reason. I would like to see Nikon fix this as it is annoying when a key controller doesn't work in a predictable way. Maybe I'm the only customer who bought the grip? That might explain why there is no firmware bug fix.

[mike_halliwell]

Does the same error come up if you hold the camera vertically or horizontally? 

Obviously there is a sensor in-body to detect 'UP', which can rotate the chosen view in the EVF and LCD screen.

Left > Right, ie next/previous image, becomes UP > DOWN, show shooting details etc. I wonder if it's getting messed up?

[ilkka_nissila]

1 hour ago, mike_halliwell said:

Does the same error come up if you hold the camera vertically or horizontally? 

Obviously there is a sensor in-body to detect 'UP', which can rotate the chosen view in the EVF and LCD screen.

Left > Right, ie next/previous image, becomes UP > DOWN, show shooting details etc. I wonder if it's getting messed up?

It doesn't appear to be affected by the camera's orientation. The camera's multi-controller works correctly in all situations, while the grip's multi-controller does something that doesn't mirror the body's like it usually does on DSLRs. The most common mode seems to be that both left-right and up-down cause the scrolling of images. However, occasionally after shooting it gives the error message and a couple of times I got it to switch between playback display modes but not at the same time scrolling between images. I sent my description to Nikon; hopefully they find the bugs.

Edited July 31, 2023 by ilkka_nissila