New Z8 questions

[mike_halliwell]

57 minutes ago, Rob Davies said:

Which is about the same as I would get with a Z6 (in a wedding/social photography situation).

Which goes to show the shutter doesn't use very much power....🤣

[joseph_smith3]

 

Thom Hogan onZ8 batteries: use EN-EL15a, EN-EL15b, or EN-EL15c batteries in your Z8, as Nikon suggests.

https://www.zsystemuser.com/nikon-z-system-news-and/z8-batteries.html

 

Joe 

[ilkka_nissila]

26 minutes ago, joseph_smith3 said:

 

Thom Hogan onZ8 batteries: use EN-EL15a, EN-EL15b, or EN-EL15c batteries in your Z8, as Nikon suggests.

https://www.zsystemuser.com/nikon-z-system-news-and/z8-batteries.html

 

Joe 

Yeah, one report on youtube said they had tested a 2016 EN-EL15 and the Z8 had not worked at all with that one. Another, earlier EN-EL15 had worked but gave a low charge indicator even though it was full. I have shot the Z8 with a, b and c types and they all worked fine. What is a bit unfortunate is that the color of the c type is black (same as EN-EL15) but a and b are gray (if I recall correctly). So one really has to go and check the product name before inserting it into the camera.

[ShunCheung]

4 hours ago, ilkka_nissila said:

Yeah, one report on youtube said they had tested a 2016 EN-EL15 and the Z8 had not worked at all with that one. Another, earlier EN-EL15 had worked but gave a low charge indicator even though it was full. I have shot the Z8 with a, b and c types and they all worked fine. What is a bit unfortunate is that the color of the c type is black (same as EN-EL15) but a and b are gray (if I recall correctly). So one really has to go and check the product name before inserting it into the camera.

The surfaces on the original EN-EL15 and the latest EN-EL15c are slightly different. They are both black, but the EN-EL15 is a shiny black while the C has a matte finish, but it is subtle and one can easily get confused. The A is in a lighter gray while the B is darker gray. I hope the following image is clear enough.

However, the EN-EL15c has an extra groove by the electronic contacts. That is the most obvious difference, beside the model number.

[ilkka_nissila]

I noticed something odd as I was trying to figure out how to disable manual focus override in autofocus mode.
 

The online reference manual suggests a custom function a15 but my Z8 doesn't have a15; a14 is followed by b1. Then I realized I could disable the manual focus ring in AF mode from the custom control assignment section where it is called Lens control ring. When the lens is in M mode, the ring works normally. But it seems there is a discrepancy between the product and the manual. 

 

[mike_halliwell]

There was a reality v the manual discrepancy a while back on my Z9.

I must go and find it.

[ilkka_nissila]

On 6/6/2023 at 8:06 PM, mike_halliwell said:

There was a reality v the manual discrepancy a while back on my Z9.

I must go and find it.

I figured out what is going on. When a lens which has a separate control ring is mounted in the camera, a15 is used to turn manual focus override on/off. When using a lens that only has a manual focus ring and no control ring, a15 is not listed in the custom function menu. Instead, manual focus override is turned on/off by overriding the control ring (in this case it is also the manual focus ring).

 

A little illogical but it is easy enough to figure out (maybe not quickly though).

 

I shot some video today of the Helsinki Samba Carnival with the Z8. Waveform monitoring for exposure verification is very nice, and the high-resolution zoom is well implemented (I set the lens control ring to adjust it) though it is not available when using Electronic VR. It is a bit like a substitute for a powered zoom. I made a whole bunch of mistakes in my recording; I had a mic cable poorly mounted, and unintentionally disabled electronic VR (which I had intended to use) by activating High-res zoom. Using the sensor-moving VR alone, it wasn't quite as stable hand-held as with EVR also on, but at least now I know these features don't work together. Next time I will use a tripod, and headphones to check that the audio is working properly.

Still I could figure out a lot from this experience: the video quality is very good and the camera does a pretty good job in full-time autofocus mode on typical people subjects. My desktop seems to handle the 4K 4:2:2 10-bit prores video just fine even though it doesn't have a separate GPU card installed. 

Edited June 10, 2023 by ilkka_nissila

[ilkka_nissila]

More experiences with the video functionality. I came to the conclusion that with regards to audio, the built-in microphone gives relatively local sound pickup and sounds a bit dull. With the Rode Videomic Pro +, sound pickup is quite good, with selectivity towards sounds coming from the front, but at 10 m distance the sound is a bit duller than when getting quite close to the source, at 3-5 m distance the sound quality is excellent though. (I was trying to capture the sound of samba batteria.) However, I miss the stereo aspects and so far my best experiences with sound recording are by combining a XY stereo microphone on an auxiliary recorded, and the shotgun microphone on camera, so that the shotgun output goes into the external recorder and then I mix the sounds with the recorder and take the line out into the mic in on the camera. This way I get a baked-in mixture of the two microphones' signals recorded on the camera and with better quality on the recorder and then I can use the external recorder tracks and sychronize those in place of the sound tracks recorded by the camera for better quality. With two microphones, a nice sound experience is created. However, I can't currently hand-hold this setup so to use it, I put the camera on tripod, the shotgun on the hot shoe, and the external recorder with the stereo microphone I mount on one of the tripod legs with a super clamp and ballhead. For hand-held recording I would then need to get some kind of a cage which I am not sure is worthwhile. There was no noise or clicks that I could hear on the audio tracks from the use of camera controls or focusing. This is good; with F-mount lenses one could definitely hear the lens focusing, but not with the Z 24-70/2.8 that I was using. Also I didn't hear the clicking sounds from use of camera controls which is also an improvement, though it could be related to the gain settings used.

 

With regards to the image stabilization, I did not find the look of the hand-held video all that satisfying; I was using no stabilization, VR SPORT, or combined VR SPORT and Electronic VR to get some footage, and in the end I came to the conclusion after watching the footage that I would probably only be happy if using a tripod for video. It's not that parts of the video didn't look good in terms of stability, they did, but when panning, when using longer focal lengths, etc. I could not really guarantee the kind of stability that I would want in a finished video that is displayed on the web or shown to people. Tripod-based footage just looks so much nicer. Yes, I know there are gimbals etc. but the Z8 with 24-70/2.8 with a gimbal would probably get tiring quite quickly. I noticed some were shooting video using monopods and I could try that to add stability while maintaining freedom for panning.

 

Still, if I use a tripod and not electronic VR, I can use the hi-res zoom feature which is fun. It allows controlled zooms either from buttons, from the control ring on the lens, or a remote. However, there is an annoying limitation to the hi-res zoom feature: the focus area is fixed at wide area large, and the camera doesn't display the location of the focus area, so I assume it must be centered. I am not sure if the area increases as one zooms in, it could do that as the focus area size could be related to the number of PDAF sensor elements on the sensor and as one is zooming in digitally, the area would then increase in relation to the size of the whole video footage that is cropped from the full sensor. Anyway the focusing worked fine (human detection with AF-F) most of the time, it's just that I was wondering where the box was, until I went into the manual. So if using the hi-res zoom feature, one has to accept a focusing area that can include subject detection but cannot be moved around the frame, and the photographer can't be exactly sure where the focus area is because it is not displayed when in this mode. Nonetheless I think the hi-res zoom is a useful feature and a way of taking advantage of the high-resolution sensor while shooting video in 4K. And having some kind of slowly changing, controllable zoom feature is useful for video. Not having power zoom lenses yet, the digital version is useful. Nikon does have one power zoom for Z mount, but it's DX format and meant for probably a different market than the Z8. 😉

 

 

[ShunCheung]

Concerning gimbal for video recording, I mentioned that Jerry Ghionis did a Zoom session with Mark Comon with Paul's Photo in Los Angeles using the Z8. The recording is on Zoom, but I don't know for how long it will be available, as sometimes Zoom deletes old recordings after e.g. a month: Story Telling With Jerry Ghionis - Zoom

It is a two-hour recording, but check 41:56 into the video. The audience asked Ghionis about the gimbal he was using, and he took out a DJI RS 3 Mini  https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1740554-REG/dji_cp_rn_00000294_01_rs_3_mini_gimbal.html

For lenses, I prefer to use something like a 24-120mm/f4 S, rather than the heavy 24-70mm/f2.8. The 24-200 is also convenient due to it wide zoom range.

Here is a recent video I captured with two Z9, with the 24-70mm/f4 S and 100-400mm S on separate tripods. I only used a Rode Video Mic Pro+ on camera from the very back of the auditorium. It is not great but seems ok. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tk3n3K5RC-s

 

 

[ilkka_nissila]

17 hours ago, ShunCheung said:

Concerning gimbal for video recording, I mentioned that Jerry Ghionis did a Zoom session with Mark Comon with Paul's Photo in Los Angeles using the Z8. The recording is on Zoom, but I don't know for how long it will be available, as sometimes Zoom deletes old recordings after e.g. a month: Story Telling With Jerry Ghionis - Zoom

It is a two-hour recording, but check 41:56 into the video. The audience asked Ghionis about the gimbal he was using, and he took out a CJI RS 3 Mini  https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1740554-REG/dji_cp_rn_00000294_01_rs_3_mini_gimbal.html

For lenses, I prefer to use something like a 24-120mm/f4 S, rather than the heavy 24-70mm/f2.8. The 24-200 is also convenient due to it wide zoom range.

Here is a recent video I captured with two Z9, with the 24-70mm/f4 S and 100-400mm S on separate tripods. I only used a Rode Video Mic Pro+ on camera from the very back of the auditorium. It is not great but seems ok. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tk3n3K5RC-s

Thanks for the links. Ghionis showed a love story -themed video. The finished product didn't seem to include audio taken during filming of the video; the sound track was just music, as far as I could tell. For what I would like to film, audio is quite an important part of creating the feeling of being there. He did seem like a bit of a gearhead pushing video and the camera, although he said he cares mostly about the people. 😉  Visually I think it was good and he clearly knows what he is doing. I'm wondering if the camera used to shoot the dog jumping into the pool was ruined and if Nikon was fine with that. 😉

 

I'm not sure how I would set up audio recording when using a gimbal; probably it would be easiest to mount the microphone(s) on a separate arm and that into the accessory interface in the gimbal, and not have the microphone on the camera itself.  However, for now, I'll try to stick to tripods for video and not pick up any extra equipment.  😉

 

I think your concert video has very good audio. 

 

 

[ShunCheung]

For audio, how much do you need to move around with a gimbal? I also have a Sennheiser MKE 600 on a stand, and I record into a portable recorder. I can also connect that MKE 600 directly into the camera mic input, as that particular mic can take one AA battery and does not depend on phantom power.

[ilkka_nissila]

9 hours ago, ShunCheung said:

For audio, how much do you need to move around with a gimbal? I also have a Sennheiser MKE 600 on a stand, and I record into a portable recorder. I can also connect that MKE 600 directly into the camera mic input, as that particular mic can take one AA battery and does not depend on phantom power.

When shooting a major event on the street, there can be tens of thousands of people in a relatively small area. In the case of the samba carnival, I would be afraid of using a stand for a microphone because if someone nudges it, the stand could fall and maybe get in the way of the dancers. I suspect that the security might also be concerned about the safety of such a setup given the crowds. For that reason I would prefer all the equipment to be in my hands or very close to me. Freedom for me to move about is very limited and if I leave my place, visibility is likely to become worse. But other people who are not concerned about rules or other people's enjoyment of the event do tend to move, and often in front of photographers. 😉  Being able to change the camera position can be helpful to avoid ending up covering someone's back. 

 

On Saturday I was positioned near an area where flowers had been placed to decorate the park where the carnival passed though, and I think I could have used those flower installations to place a tripod or mic stand without too much of a risk. I could try it next year. The flower installations are a new feature as the city wants to take some space from car traffic and make the area more appealing for people to hang about. 

Edited June 14, 2023 by ilkka_nissila

[ilkka_nissila]

I noticed an annoying problem with Lightroom when editing through Z8 files.

 

Sometimes the lens profile is applied automatically and it lists the lens correctly in the Lens Corrections tab. However, for some other images taken on the same day with exactly the same lens and camera , it says "Lens Profile: Make: None" and "! Unable to load lens profile."  When I then select "Nikon" from the Make pull-down, it identifies the lens correctly and applies the profile.

[mike_halliwell]

Grey Z8s now available in UK on < 10 day delivery @ £3.8K

[ilkka_nissila]

On 6/17/2023 at 10:54 AM, ilkka_nissila said:

I noticed an annoying problem with Lightroom when editing through Z8 files.

 

Sometimes the lens profile is applied automatically and it lists the lens correctly in the Lens Corrections tab. However, for some other images taken on the same day with exactly the same lens and camera , it says "Lens Profile: Make: None" and "! Unable to load lens profile."  When I then select "Nikon" from the Make pull-down, it identifies the lens correctly and applies the profile.

I was able to fix the issue by simply selecting Make: Nikon", and copying the lens correction settings to all the Z8 files.

[mike_halliwell]

Z8 handling?

Does it feel more like the D850 than the Z6, or nicely set between the two?

I'm thinking with long handheld teles, 500mm f4, 300/400mm 2.8. Is the weight saving worth it regarding total all-up weight. I know it's only 400gm or so, but wonder if it makes any combos front heavy?

I suspect the Z8 and the 400mm 4.5 make quite a nice carry 'long' combo....🙂

I already have the Z9, but wonder if it makes a good backup AND a smaller and lighter walkabout body.

[ilkka_nissila]

3 hours ago, mike_halliwell said:

Z8 handling?

Does it feel more like the D850 than the Z6, or nicely set between the two?

I'm thinking with long handheld teles, 500mm f4, 300/400mm 2.8. Is the weight saving worth it regarding total all-up weight. I know it's only 400gm or so, but wonder if it makes any combos front heavy?

I suspect the Z8 and the 400mm 4.5 make quite a nice carry 'long' combo....🙂

I already have the Z9, but wonder if it makes a good backup AND a smaller and lighter walkabout body.

The Z8 feels nice in my hands. I have no complaints on that. The D6 (and I assume the Z9) has a tactile click when pressing the multi-controller wings while the Z8 (or D850) has no click. I doubt you'd find the 400/4.5 front heavy on the Z8.

I know I am in the minority but I miss the left-hand side buttons that are present on the DSLRs. Having two columns of buttons on the right hand side (the bottom right corner) is crowded.

 

I don't have the vertical grip yet but I will be needing it.

 

 

 

[ShunCheung]

12 minutes ago, ilkka_nissila said:

I know I am in the minority but I miss the left-hand side buttons that are present on the DSLRs. Having two columns of buttons on the right hand side (the bottom right corner) is crowded.

The rear LCD can move in a lot more ways now (although some are still unhappy with the Z8 and Z9 swivel LCD). You simply cannot have a column of buttons on the left side any more.

I dislike the Z8's vertical grip. In fact, the only Nikon vertical grip I have ever purchased was the MB-D10, which could increase the FPS for both the D300 and D700. Otherwise, I prefer either a built-in grip or just no grip.

[ilkka_nissila]

3 hours ago, ShunCheung said:

The rear LCD can move in a lot more ways now (although some are still unhappy with the Z8 and Z9 swivel LCD). You simply cannot have a column of buttons on the left side any more.

I dislike the Z8's vertical grip. In fact, the only Nikon vertical grip I have ever purchased was the MB-D10, which could increase the FPS for both the D300 and D700. Otherwise, I prefer either a built-in grip or just no grip.

Since the screen stays behind the camera and doesn't flip around the side towards the front like the screens in some other cameras do (such as the Zfc) I don't quite see how this would mean there could not be a column of buttons to the left of the screen. It would make the camera a bit wider, though.  I believe the main reason Nikon removed those buttons is because people who hand-hold big and heavy lenses can't access them without putting down the setup on something and a lot of people complained about not being able to do those tasks with the right hand only. But to me being able to use both hands to control the camera would be easier in most cases (when using small to medium size lenses) and I prefer using large lenses on a a camera support anyway. However, for portrait orientation shooting with a tele, I need the vertical grip. So why not get the Z9? Because sometimes it is nice to have a small camera. When I use small lenses, such as the f/1.8 primes, I prefer a relatively small body. If I had bought the Z9, I would have had to keep the Z6 II for those situations where I want to use a smaller camera. Getting the Z8 allowed me to sell the Z6 II as the new camera is small enough to serve in that role. That was the decisive factor for me in this case. For even smaller lenses such as the 26mm pancake, even the Z8 does feel quite big.

Edited June 19, 2023 by ilkka_nissila

[ShunCheung]

The Z9's rear LCD is designed so that it can also be used as a viewfinder in an overhead, vertical orientation. Any button to the left of the LCD (in the normal, landscape orientation) would have been totally covered up if one uses the camera that way, either hand held or on a tripod. (Although personally, I don't need to use the camera that way, but Nikon didn't design them for me only.)

 

[ilkka_nissila]

10 hours ago, ShunCheung said:

The Z9's rear LCD is designed so that it can also be used as a viewfinder in an overhead, vertical orientation. Any button to the left of the LCD (in the normal, landscape orientation) would have been totally covered up if one uses the camera that way, either hand held or on a tripod. (Although personally, I don't need to use the camera that way, but Nikon didn't design them for me only.)

 

I understand that it does that. As it is when pulling the screen out to allow tilting to the left or right, the mechanism moves the center of the screen leftward (or down in the image). This is a design choice and they could have implemented it in a different way, but perhaps this was the easiest way to achieve the flexibility and ruggedness they wanted. I do like that it can tilt properly for vertical shots as this will be useful for, e.g., vertical plant close-ups. However, I hope they make some cameras with alternative designs as this mechanism makes it more difficult to switch between LCD and viewfinder than some other designs.  In any case, camera design is full of compromises and I suspect the Z9 and Z8 will be liked very much by those who want the most frequently accessed controls on the right hand side. I recall numerous lengthy discussions even on this forum about how difficult it was to change focus settings while using a long lens hand-held a few years ago. 🙂  I rarely do that as I tend to choose the focus area settings once for a type of event and then I just go with those, for the most part.

 

I ordered a 325 GB card from B&H to make it more practical to use the Z8 for video (I believe it should give about 1 hour of 4K Prores 422 HQ 10-bit). Unfortunately this doesn't solve the storage problem on the computer end. I guess I have to get used to the idea of deleting the original material once the final edited video is complete.

Edited June 20, 2023 by ilkka_nissila

[mike_halliwell]

Apparently Auto Capture has been de-promised for the Z8.

All references from Nikon promo text and vids have been removed.

How weird?

[ShunCheung]

For video, I have captured about 1TB of files in a concert, including two cameras shooting 8K, not RAW, video and than 1500 RAW image files. Sometimes I also shoot the rehearsal right before the actual concert. I am going to experiment with RAW videos too but we can easily reach 2, 3T per concert. I do save the original video footage on some old 6T, 10T hard drives, but I don't duplicate them across many drives, as I do with still images. The volume is crazy.

The good news is that portable SSDs are getting much cheaper. a 4TB SSD is around $200. My next CFexpress B card will have to be at least 1TB and the demand for more memory space is still going up rapidly.

[ilkka_nissila]

3 hours ago, mike_halliwell said:

Apparently Auto Capture has been de-promised for the Z8.

I am guessing they are getting a flood of requests for the new FW for the Z8 and they'd rather have customers purchase some Z9's now to get the extra functionalities (including Auto Capture) immediately instead of just waiting for the Z8 firmware update and not buying anything until it comes out. Then later the Z8 purchasers can get some firmware updates on a timeline that Nikon chooses.

 

IMO Nikon can't pull back on the promise which was in their videos just by editing it out.

[mike_halliwell]

5 hours ago, ilkka_nissila said:

I am guessing they are getting a flood of requests for the new FW for the Z8 and they'd rather have customers purchase some Z9's now to get the extra functionalities (including Auto Capture) immediately instead of just waiting for the Z8 firmware update and not buying anything until it comes out.

So, what where Nikon thinking about to include it in the first place?

Management clash? Daft!

Edited June 20, 2023 by mike_halliwell