Primo JR TLR Lens - how to fix hazy frosted foggy lens

[TxGR]

The inner taking lens group on a Tokyo Kogaku Primo JR TLR appears frosted or hazy:

This on the lens facing the shutter, of the group between the shutter and the film plane. There appears to be corrosion around the rim of the element. It almost appears frosted, like ground glass.

The haze is not opaque. There are some specks, but my concern is the haze will cause the image to be blurry/soft and blocks lights.

All the other lens faces are clear. This is the opposite of the same lens group - perfectly transparent (the flecks are from the opposite hazy surface. I would expect most surfaces to be in similar condition, with the exposed surfaces being in the worst condition.

On the frosted side, the roughness is very even, almost as if it is ground glass. I would have expected chemical etching or contamination to be inconsistent with rough and smooth areas. Here is the lens with some isopropanol (>90% alcohol) applied to half, drying. As it dries, the even nature of the frosted surface is shown.

Based on what I've read, my best bet is some sort of windscreen polishing compound. I've read about soft erasers, alcohol (obviously did not help), vaseline (seems like a horrible idea), fine sand paper, or even baking soda.

The next step, of course, is irreversible. If anybody has some other suggestions, comments, or cautions, I'd very much like to hear them before I try to polish this out. Thanks.

[rodeo_joe1]

29 minutes ago, TxGR said:

Based on what I've read, my best bet is some sort of windscreen polishing compound. I've read about soft erasers, alcohol (obviously did not help), vaseline (seems like a horrible idea), fine sand paper, or even baking soda.

Those are all a good way to totally ruin a lens, apart from the alcohol. 

31 minutes ago, TxGR said:

but my concern is the haze will cause the image to be blurry/soft and blocks lights.

It definitely will be soft and blurry. In fact I'd be surprised if you got a recognisable image at all. 

Does the shutter even work? Because that kind of damage to glass can only occur if it's been in contact with salt water or some such corrosive liqjid. And if the lens has been immersed; what's happened to the shutter? 

I suspect the lens, at least, is a complete write off. However, you could try getting some lens tissues - not spectacle cleaners or microfiber scratching cloths - and apply a solution of water with a small amount of washing-up liquid added. Gently rub the corroded lens surface and see if you can make any improvement. I suspect not, but it's worth a try. 

Good luck, but I think that camera won't deliver a sharp picture ever again. It's just a shelf curiosity I suspect. 

[TxGR]

8 hours ago, rodeo_joe1 said:

--snip--

Because that kind of damage to glass can only occur if it's been in contact with salt water or some such corrosive liqjid. And if the lens has been immersed; what's happened to the shutter?

--snip--

 

That's part of the reason I am confused: the rest of the camera is pristine, almost as if brand new. Even the other lens elements are excellent. I wonder if a previous owner tried to "clean" it with something corrosive. These cameras were made late enough, they probably have some coatings on them, so a chemical reaction with a coating would explain the even nature of the haze.

Having lived aboard boats extensively, I've never seen salt water or salt spray affect glass like this. Even if allowed to dry, leaving a salt residue, cleaning the lens/glass is easy. The metal on the other hand, is easily ruined.

I have two more Primo JRs I bought recently. All of them were very inexpensive. Unless their elements are similarly ruined, I will just cannibalize one to fix the other.

Thank you very much for the input. I went out and bought some polishing compounds, but I'll hold off on using them until I completely give up on this element. 

[John Seaman]

I suppose there's no chance that this is a cemented pair, when haze can happen in the adhesive between the elements? In which case there's nothing you can do. If it's definitely on the surface, I have used toothpaste, which has a very gentle scouring action, on a Yashicamat lens which looked similar.

Quote

 

 

[TxGR]

No, I don't think this is cemented.

I am grateful to @rodeo_joe1 talking me off the ledge of using a polishing compound. I read some more posts, blogs, articles, all of unknown origin. I decided to try the alcohol and windex cleaner mix solution with a lens cloth (yes, probably the scratching microfiber variety, but it came with a Hoya lens, so if Hoya is selling it...). I noticed some tentative progress. This face of the element was perfectly flat, so I put the cloth down on a flat surface and just continued working it. It seems to have done an excellent job of clearing it up. 

If it was a fouled/corrupted coating, I rubbed the coating off. If it was some sort of calcium or other deposit, I rubbed it off. Did I scratch the lens? Probably, but I can't see any cleaning marks. Did I introduce an irregular shape or cause there to be an undulating surface? I doubt I could have done much damage in ~15 minutes of work with a lens cloth and non-abrasive fluid on a flat surface.

Here is what it looked like after I finished:

 

Here are side by sides of before and after over the box:

I put everything back together and went through a roll of Ilford HP400 and a roll of Rollei Crossbird color. I have two rolls in other cameras I want to finish, then I will send them off for processing. I'll post the results here.

Of course, I have no idea what the before pictures looked like, or even if the camera has any light leaks or some other issue, so the pictures might not turn out even if the lens is good. Still, I am hopeful the results will show if I introduced any flaws of distortion. As I mentioned, I have two more showing up soon, so if one has a decent lens, I can swap it out. The viewfinder is exceptionally bright, corner to corner even in daylight, so I hope this one turns out good.

Thanks for your input.

[rodeo_joe1]

You were lucky there. That definitely looked like an etched glass surface to me. It might just produce a usable image now. 

20 hours ago, TxGR said:

(yes, probably the scratching microfiber variety, but it came with a Hoya lens, so if Hoya is selling it...).

Hoya sell more lenses and filters that way. To replace the scratched ones. 😄 - Speaking as a confirmed cynic and microfiber-atheist that is.

[rodeo_joe1]

On 11/6/2022 at 12:44 AM, TxGR said:

That's part of the reason I am confused: the rest of the camera is pristine, almost as if brand new.

Could have been previously swapped out by a former owner. People do some strange stuff. 

I had a Yashi 635 'Gold' that came with some misting in between the lens groups. I cleaned it off several times, and two days later it was back again. After about the 6th attempt I moved it on to a dealer. 

Horrible camera anyway, with a meter that was influenced by simply waving your hand 6" over the top of the camera. Lens wasn't as sharp as a 1959 Yashi mat that I inherited - even when it wasn't misted up by some mysterious solvent.

Edited November 8, 2022 by rodeo_joe1

[laurencecochrane]

I used to have a 356  (First MF LONG TIME AGO)  It produced inigaes you could cut yourself on. You may have had lens issues. I gave the 356 to a mates daughter who did a photography masters degree she and her lecturers were impressed by the images it produced. ME ? Hated the lack of double exposure lock. tho the results I got from that camera were spectacular. Despite missed frames HATED THAT. You do get used to it. Never touch the camera between shots, do not wind on till ready for shooting  next frame.

Edited November 13, 2022 by laurencecochrane