D850 vs. Df shootout with the 85mm f/1.4

[kevin_beretta]

I've always wondered why I get better people shots (portraits) from the Df (and the D700) versus the D850. I'm going to put this to the test in the studio by taking pics with the same settings on both cameras and using the same lens. Since the D850 produces a much larger image, I was wondering how I best equalize the size of the resulting image when viewed at 100% on the screen. My simple solution would be to tether, compare the size of the shot images at 100% and move the Df closer till a picture equates the size from the D850. However, then I am also shooting closer to the subject and will likely see more detail.

What's the proper way to compare the two cameras with the same lens and same subject setup? The D850 produces gritty portraits and the Df nice and smooth ones. It starts from the NEF file so I'm pulling out my non-existent hair to try and resolve this once and for all, but first I need a decent side by side setup.

Any feedback welcome

(love the new forum!)

[mike_halliwell]

Try mRAW on the D850?

[q.g._de_bakker]

Unless you want to show that the D850 has many more pixels, and resolves more detail, the best way to check which one is better suited for portraits is to use both Df and D850 the way you would when taking portraits. Do not do anything special, geared towards a comparison.

Use the lens you would on either camera as if that was the only camera you could use. From the distance you would with that lens. Process the output the way you would anyway. And view the results the way you always do.

If you cannot see a significant difference, the D850 would be 'overkill'. If you do see a significant difference, it is easy to decide which one you like best.

 

And you already noticed a difference, the results from the Df being more pleasing to your eye ("nice and smooth").

So the test is done, the results are in: you like the Df better for portraits.

Edited November 4, 2022 by q.g._de_bakker

[ilkka_nissila]

3 hours ago, kevin_beretta said:

I've always wondered why I get better people shots (portraits) from the Df (and the D700) versus the D850. I'm going to put this to the test in the studio by taking pics with the same settings on both cameras and using the same lens. Since the D850 produces a much larger image, I was wondering how I best equalize the size of the resulting image when viewed at 100% on the screen. My simple solution would be to tether, compare the size of the shot images at 100% and move the Df closer till a picture equates the size from the D850. However, then I am also shooting closer to the subject and will likely see more detail.

What's the proper way to compare the two cameras with the same lens and same subject setup? The D850 produces gritty portraits and the Df nice and smooth ones. It starts from the NEF file so I'm pulling out my non-existent hair to try and resolve this once and for all, but first I need a decent side by side setup.

Any feedback welcome

(love the new forum!)

 

The images need to show the same subject matter and  should be shot from the same camera position. The D850 is likely to produce much more detail in the shots that are in focus, and since it has a more advanced AF system it is also easier to get shots in focus at the same circle of confusion level. However, not every image will be in focus with either camera if AF is used.

 

If you want to compare pixels, you can resize the files from one camera to the native size of the other and evaluate. The D850 likely wins a comparison of detail at 16 MP even after resizing down from 45MP. If you upsample the 16 MP from the Df to 45 MP and compare to D850 originals the difference is likely even more striking (the lack of AA filter in the D850 contributes to this). You could also make prints (no need to resample, the printer driver will do that for you).

 

However, apart from detail, there are other, more subjective aspects of image quality, differences in colour and how each camera handles noise. I think Df images have a pleasing look. And it can be fun to work with smaller raw files, they take less space and the quality stays high at medium and high ISO. Despite owning D850's I mostly use other cameras with 20 and 24 MP.

Edited November 4, 2022 by ilkka_nissila

[BeBu Lamar]

One primary advantage of the D850 is that it has a lot more pixels than the Df. If you don't crop (or only crop slightly) and compare your image on a monitor (even a 4K one) and compare the entire image not a portion then the D850 loses the pixels advantage. 

[Sandy Vongries]

DF, an excellent camera, intended to somewhat duplicate the feel of high end film Nikons was introduced in 2013.  It has the D4 sensor and is an excellent all around camera.  I acquired one shortly after they were introduced and it is still a go to travel camera for me. I have no experience with the D850, introduced in 2017 (with 4 years of advancements).  I do have and use a D810 almost entirely with a macro lens.. The greater number of pixels do allow tighter crops than are practical with less.  On the other hand, I have a D3 with fewer but larger pixels which is enormously capable in all genre that do not require extreme crops.  You give and get at either end of the spectrum. Working with large files requires both more space and time.

[kevin_beretta]

Despite the fact I had to use my own mug for some comparison shots earlier today, I must admit that the Df shots are a lot better than the D850. This is looking at the NEF files as produced. Now I need to play around a bit in CaptureOne to see if I can make something out of the D850 picture that compares more to the Df. Thanks for all your feedback.

[mike_halliwell]

1 hour ago, kevin_beretta said:

Df shots are a lot better than the D850

We're back to quantitative v qualitative.....

If what you say is true, Nikon would have sold no D850s.....? 

Which didn't happen.

WMMV.

[rodeo_joe1]

Surely the easiest option is to down-rez the higher rez shots to match the D700? Easily done in PhotoShop, GIMP, or even Irfanview. Plus maybe a tweak of the saturation, WB and contrast to get a super-fair comparison. But the latter isn't quite as easy.

Another way would be to switch lenses such that the cropped D850 pixel size matched that of one of the other cameras. E. G. 45mm lens on the D850 versus 85mm lens on the D700, or 50mm on the D850 versus 85mm on the Df - keeping the subject distance and aperture the same. That way you'll avoid any effect of digital interpolation between image resolutions. But then having to take account of variable lens quality and colour rendering. 

On the whole, I think digital down-rezzing will give the most fair comparison.

When I compared my D700 with my, then new, D800 at the same image size on my monitor, both shot at 200 ISO (base speed of the D700), it was quite difficult to spot any difference. It was only when the ISO and magnification was pushed higher that the D800 outshone the D700. However, in the case of the D850 you might have to make an allowance for the lack of AA filter. 

Edited November 5, 2022 by rodeo_joe1

[CvhKaar]

Maybe dumb question : Which 85mm F/1.4 version are you using for this comparison ?

The "D" version performs different from the "G" version on Digital - High res sensors , has a different max. resolution ...... 

[kevin_beretta]

13 minutes ago, c.p.m._van_het_kaar said:

Maybe dumb question : Which 85mm F/1.4 version are you using for this comparison ?

The "D" version performs different from the "G" version on Digital - High res sensors , has a different max. resolution ...... 

It's the G version

[robert_bouknight1]

Kevin, I think I understand what you see and what you are trying to achieve.    When I moved from a D800 to a D810 as primary body several years ago, I liked the D810 body much better but I kept thinking that I was less happy with the color.  I briefly had a D4 at that time and liked the results a lot, but a friend really wanted the D4 so it was sold.  The D810 was "supposed" to be better.

Last year, looking for an inexpensive camera to give a nephew, I got a deal on a D800.  I really like the SOOC JPG colors that that D800 and a D3x that I have produce.  My Z cameras and cheap high mileage D850 just seem a little blue by comparison.  Sure, I can go into raw files and "equalize" things, but I just don't enjoy photo software, prefer to get the best possible camera output to minimize computer time.  BTW, I kept the D800 and gave him a D610.

I keep playing with the white balance "adjustment tweaker" a little bit to warm up the later cameras.  Maybe I just don't want what is likely the more accurate color balance in the Z7 and D850. On the Z7, I have the A-B at .5 which is better IMO.

No doubt that the D850 and Z7 produce a little more detail than the lower MP cameras.  But I would (and often do) trade that slight detail advantage for the color rendition that the D3x and D800 antiques produce.

As far as megapixels and details go, there seems to be a good bit of difference between the 12MP D3s I still have and a D3x, but less of a detail increase from a 24MP to the 45MP Z or D850.  Comparison is using one of my best lenses (105/1.4G) at high shutter speed.  My conclusion is that 24MP is good enough for most handheld type photos, particularly portraits.  If I can keep the ISO below 1000, the D3x files look great.  

The eye AF in the Z cameras is a nice feature, though.

Edited November 7, 2022 by robert_bouknight1

[mike_halliwell]

On 11/4/2022 at 6:27 AM, kevin_beretta said:

It starts from the NEF file

Did you try the in-camera RAW binning to make Small/Medium RAW files?

[kevin_beretta]

13 hours ago, mike_halliwell said:

Did you try the in-camera RAW binning to make Small/Medium RAW files?

I have not. For the simple reason I don't know how to do that. Will investigate.

[hapien]

One method to compare output is to make bigger prints and observing what happens. Once I had 30x45cm inkjet printed photobook made in photobook service. In this book is 2,7Mpix landscape image next to cropped 20Mpix landscape image. Difference in detail is visible.

My guess is that 16Mpix and 45Mpix images are going to look pretty much the same in usual print sizes.

Usual computer screen pixel densities are so low, that I would not use screen as tool to compare full size output.

Edited November 8, 2022 by hapien

[mike_halliwell]

8 hours ago, kevin_beretta said:

For the simple reason I don't know how to do that. Will investigate.

Slightly heavy, but worthy reading.

https://photographylife.com/reviews/nikon-d850/4

This might actually be what you want?

https://neilvn.com/tangents/nikon-d850-medium-raw-files-soft/

[CvhKaar]

On 11/4/2022 at 7:27 AM, kevin_beretta said:

What's the proper way to compare the two cameras with the same lens and same subject setup? The D850 produces gritty portraits and the Df nice and smooth ones.

What helps to create the difference is that it looks like the D850 outperforms the (2010) AF-s 85 f/1.4 G in reslolution due to the much smaller foto cites on the sensor , so no matter what picture size you set on the D850 , the "grittiness" seems unavoidable, where the Df's sensor resolution  "fit's" better with the 85mm max resolution i think.

Edited November 8, 2022 by c.p.m._van_het_kaar

[kevin_beretta]

I took six shots, large, medium and small RAW. No sharpening or other adjustments, pumped straight out using Capture One. First lens was a Zeiss Milvus f1.4 50mm. Second was a AF-S NIKKOR 85mm f/1.4G 85mm. I moved the camera back a bit to get roughly the same size of picture. Manual focus for both. Settings ISO64, 1/40s f/5 and a 2 second delay on the shutter. I'm happy to see the 85 holds up quite well to the 50. I think what I am concluding from this is that the 85 at large provides too much detail in the face and I certainly prefer the medium here. Even the small would be perfectly suitable for a portrait. The 50 does not seem as harsh to me at large and the difference between large and medium is perceptually less than the difference between the 85 large and 85 medium. What do you all think?

Edit: The uploaded photos seem to have lost all detail. Here is a download link if you want: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1vMERC6soGNiFVEfIv3u9JyftfuMx9iXi?usp=share_link

Edited November 8, 2022 by kevin_beretta