Photographer Andrew Sweet

[tholte]

I imagine explorers and astronauts would get a good laugh at the idea that going to the moon once was the idea.

 

Bringing it back to photography, I'm glad Imogen Cunningham's calla lily didn't stop Tina Modotti and Robert Mapplethorpe from making their own. Like I said, it's not always first that counts, and I don't think it was about improving on Cunningham's work or competing with it, it's about each photographer's personal take on a very photogenic subject.

Should always respect the first and those that build on it

I posted it because I thought it was an example of a 'documentary photo' at the beach, which is what I saw in Sweet's beach photography. Certainly, I could have posted different shots that I didn't think would have the same sort of impact. Had that shot been part of Sweet's portfolio, I wonder what the reaction would have been. I don't know that his beach series documented a place and time extraordinarily well, but it certainly did document a place and time. Whether it was one day or many days cannot be discerned by the photos. Shoe boxes are full of family pics that document a place and time, which is why I see nothing out of the ordinary with Sweet's beach series. I haven't looked at his other work, so make no judgment of him as a photographer in general. I'm sure he was better than I am.

"Shoe boxes are full of family pics that document a place and time, which is why I see nothing out of the ordinary with Sweet's beach series." This is the problem as I see it. You

No, the old film's degraded color transition is the main striking thing of that stuff. But composition, thythm, forms, (or absence of which) are all like on amateur's photos from his P&S Kodak.

Now I look at our student's 1990s' photography (as we went to another city, as we went to a holiday house, to a dache, etc, all were taken on film with a crappy Helios) as documentary...As they document a place and time extraordinarily well

Everyone has an opinion and I strongly disagree with yours on many levels.

[tholte]

I have seen all the series on the website and apart of few interesting shots, his general stuff is nothing to write home about. My favourite photogtaphers are Robert Doisneau, Steve Mc Curry, Brassai, Koudelka. And others.

I find it amusing that you are comparing Sweet's work with the above iconic figures of photography. Your favorite photographers are some of mine also but that doesn't diminish the work of Sweet in the least.

[samstevens]

It's certainly interesting how much people's opinions diverge on 'art.'

Your descriptions and your posted photo as comparison call into question what you’re able to see more than any opinions of art.

[jordan2240]

This is the problem as I see it. You

Well, I guess if you see me as a problem because I see Sweet's beach shots as being of the same quality as many family vacation snaps, that's your prerogative. I don't recognize it as a problem. Perhaps I need an intervention.

[jordan2240]

Your descriptions and your posted photo as comparison call into question what you’re able to see more than any opinions of art.

I never indicated my example was 'art,' though what one could call art is quite varied and subject to opinion. I've looked as Sweet's shots a number of times, and have yet to see them as anything other than vacation snaps. Yes, he got people to pose for him and to look in his direction. Not sure there is a special talent in that.

[samstevens]

I never indicated my example was 'art,'

Neither did I. You posted your example as a comparison, not as art. Not seeing the difference between your photo and Sweet's series is what strikes me. It's not about the relative quality of each, which is a matter of opinion. You come back to "art," "opinion," and now "talent," all of which miss the point. That you don't see a difference (not a better/worse difference, but a difference in intention, color palette, energy, and narrative) is what I'm pointing out. That's not about art, talent, or opinion.

[jordan2240]

Neither did I. You posted your example as a comparison, not as art. Not seeing the difference between your photo and Sweet's series is what strikes me. It's not about the relative quality of each, which is a matter of opinion. You come back to "art," "opinion," and now "talent," all of which miss the point. That you don't see a difference (not a better/worse difference, but a difference in intention, color palette, energy, and narrative) is what I'm pointing out. That's not about art, talent, or opinion.

I get it. Sweet was trying to record a specific time and setting, and I was taking a vacation snapshot. That doesn't stop me from comparing what Sweet did with typical vacation snaps, regardless of his intent. I don't see where he was intentionally using a specific 'color palette.' As I said before, the colors represented are those one would see at pretty much any beach. At this point, I don't even know what we're in disagreement on. You don't think his pics are anything special, and neither do I. Did he capture the 'vibe' of Miami beach during the era in which he took the shots - perhaps, but I don't see where he did it in an extraordinary way - simple as that. There are likely thousands of pics taken during the same era at the same place by people on vacation that do it just as well.

[samstevens]

I get it. Sweet was trying to record a specific time and setting, and I was taking a vacation snapshot. That doesn't stop me from comparing what Sweet did with typical vacation snaps, regardless of his intent.

It’s about seeing the photos. It’s not about KNOWING or HAVING READ ABOUT his intent. It’s the intention the photos show. Your photo shows "vacation snap.' His series shows something else entirely. I think you're comparing surfaces, and not seeing beyond "beach," and "old people."

I don't see where he was intentionally using a specific 'color palette.'

My point exactly. There is a distinctive color palette which you're not seeing. Look again, carefully, at the color of the water and the sand on his home page shot, how much green there is in the water compared to your pic and most pics, how much the sand leans toward red. Color palette is just one element but it's a start in terms of seeing better.

As I said before, the colors represented are those one would see at pretty much any beach.

No, they're not. They're much more photographic and you wouldn't see them on a beach. What you'd see on a beach is closer to the generic color palette your photo uses.

At this point, I don't even know what we're in disagreement on. You don't think his pics are anything special, and neither do I.

Again, that's what I'm trying to get across. Though I don't consider them that special, I'm able to step back from that and appreciate their consistency, intentional compositions and storytelling, his more personal and expressive approach to color, and his willingness to show in the pictures a connection to subjects and his success at providing a viewpoint that seems part of the scenes rather than merely curious about them or distanced from them. It's not all about our opinions and how special we think they are.

I don't see where he did it in an extraordinary way

He didn't. And he certainly didn't seem to be trying to, according to the emotional tone of the pictures. "Extraordinary" isn't always the goal. In this case, it seems like the opposite of the goal.

[Supriyo]

It strikes me how unextraordinary and 'normal' these people look, considering the ordeals many of them have endured in their past lives. The simplistic no-frills approach of the photos allude to that, at least in my imagination. Thats the power of survival and life in general, I suppose.

[jordan2240]

It strikes me how unextraordinary and 'normal' these people look, considering the ordeals many of them have endured in their past lives. The simplistic no-frills approach of the photos allude to that, at least in my imagination. Thats the power of survival and life in general, I suppose.

How do you deduce what any of the subjects went through in their lives by looking at these photos?

[jordan2240]

Though I don't consider them that special, I'm able to step back from that and appreciate their consistency, intentional compositions and storytelling,

I think the shot I posted tells a much more interesting story than most of Sweet's shots, or at least makes one's imagination wander.

[tholte]

I think the shot I posted tells a much more interesting story than most of Sweet's shots, or at least makes one's imagination wander.[/quote

I hope you are joking but your previous comments prove that you are not. You just don't get it and are not photographically sophisticated/educated enough to appreciate the difference between your image and the work of Sweet's.

[Supriyo]

How do you deduce what any of the subjects went through in their lives by looking at these photos?

 

I don't have to JUST look at the photos to understand their significance. I can read about them and thats what I did. Without knowing the context, I could still appreciate the consistency of theme and style in Andrew's series and the fact that they are different than random snapshots. Then when I read about Andrew's life story, his motivation and the background of his subjects, I got the full significance. I don't see the fact that I benefited from that context, as any disqualifier against his work.

[Sandy Vongries]

Moderator note ; We're at that point, I think - where the course of the conversation has become unpleasant. Do not see potential for agreement, or much further value. Good time to veer back to the OP or walk away.

[jordan2240]

Moderator note ; We're at that point, I think - where the course of the conversation has become unpleasant. Do not see potential for agreement, or much further value. Good time to veer back to the OP or walk away.

I'll drink to that.

[jordan2240]

Moderator note ; We're at that point, I think - where the course of the conversation has become unpleasant. Do not see potential for agreement, or much further value. Good time to veer back to the OP or walk away.

"I will be quite interested to read what you think about Sweet's work."

 

I don't think I ever veered from the OP.

Edited June 5, 2019 by jordan2240

[jordan2240]

Well Tim, I always enjoy your work, so you might be right.

 

Ok, guess I veered there. Walking away.

Edited June 5, 2019 by jordan2240

[ruslan]

It’s about seeing the photos. It’s not about KNOWING or HAVING READ ABOUT his intent. It’s the intention the photos show. Your photo shows "vacation snap.' His series shows something else entirely. I think you're comparing surfaces, and not seeing beyond "beach," and "old people."

It's how you see them. There are elderly people and the beach in the series. Honestly. The reast is how you interpret it.

No, they're not. They're much more photographic and you wouldn't see them on a beach. What you'd see on a beach is closer to the generic color palette your photo uses.

Have you ever shot on Agfa, Kodak or ORWO film emulsions? If you had done done it in 1970s you would have got the same palette as Sweet got. Moreover, Sweets work were re-processed to be exposed online.

All that simple.

"Generic" color palette you are talking about (jordan's sample) is a modern digital palette which is far more accurate.

This stuff represent some interest because of the place and time. Chronicles are often of interest. Watch some historical footages and you will see my point. I like old footages. He might have taken a footage on 16 mm - and I bet some would call it great and artful. Articticaly and technically, though, it is too mediocre.

[ruslan]

So, in conclusion, I'd say, Sweet's work are regular for the time they were made (taken) if estimated 'em as amateurish works. Static, kinda primitive old stuff. Back in the days, even weddings were done this way. And everybody was content with that, it was a norm, central composition and degraded colors were norm, static people in the frame and overexposed faces were norm. What do I have with those elderly reach jewish people in a holiday centre restaurant (So Be Culture circa 1978, La Dolce Vita folders)? Nothing. It's llike staring into Brezhnev's personal photographer Musaeliyan (much more masterful photographer). Everything in the world evolves, it does not stay the same and the photography changes too.

I'd mark (note) Andy's Tampa pictures which are much more promising (something alike Avedon's people from the West series) they are way more powerful - - it's day and night compared to holiday cantre old people. Really. So it is my POV.

[samstevens]

Generic" color palette you are talking about (jordan's sample) is a modern digital palette which is far more accurate.

Accuracy is sometimes overrated. Xerox machines are pretty accurate. But you’re helping make my point. Jordan said several times he didn’t see any difference between his colors and Sweet’s. One of the things I was trying to do, as I think all of us are, is to help him see better. If a photographer can’t see that difference in color you’re describing, it’s a good place to start learning.

I'd mark (note) Andy's Tampa pictures

Because everyone has to be an Avedon and only that kind of pathos is worthy! Not. I give Sweet credit for shooting Miami and Tampa differently and not sticking to a more searing black and white template to shoot everything in sight.

[jordan2240]

Jordan said several times he didn’t see any difference between his colors and Sweet’s.

Well, now I have to walk back because I never said I didn't see a difference in colors. It's like seeing the difference between shooting on Kodak Portra and Fuji NPH. My point has always been that the photos are very ordinary in their composition and subject matter. I believe ruslan accurately described why the colors are as they are - having less to do with intent and more to do with what was the norm, and I don't see them as a significant element in the photos.

[samstevens]

As I said before, the colors represented are those one would see at pretty much any beach.

I guess you’re right. You didn’t say your colors were the same as his, you just didn’t see a difference between snapping a guy’s tush at the beach and clumsily making the guy huge in the frame with no attention paid to the background, and Sweet’s more respectful, narrative, and connected photos. Got it. And still, you’re wrong that one would see his colors at the beach. One wouldn’t. One would only see them in pictures of the beach.

[tholte]

I will pass after one last comment. Most good photos and series of photos have an idea/concept behind them. Most photos taken haphazardly don't. Most of the photos I take are taken haphazardly with not a lot of thought behind them and I consider them to be little pieces of sugarless candy, fun practice but not at all important in the big scheme of things. I occasionally put together a photo project that I care about and somehow they turn out much more pleasing to me even if the technical qualities of the actual images have some flaws. Sweet's work documenting the Jewish aspect of life in the Miami area was and is fascinating to me, partially because many of them were Holocaust survivors. I am embarrassed to say that I never heard of him before Michael's post. I would suggest to many that don't seem to appreciate his work to think of an important photo project, some story that you think needs to be told, do your research and start your own photo project and you will see that it is not an easy thing to do.

[samstevens]

Most photos taken haphazardly don't. Most of the photos I take are taken haphazardly with not a lot of thought behind them and I consider them to be little pieces of sugarless candy, fun practice but not at all important in the big scheme of things.

While I think what you say about projects is very perceptive, I think you're being needlessly self deprecating about your own work. While you may be more "haphazard" in your overall shooting and may not put a lot of "thought" into each one, there's a consistency in your work which shows a very personal attachment to making photos. Your scenes are often haunting in some hard-to-describe way. The landscapes you shoot seem to me as much an inner scape as an outer one. That's not the case with a lot of landscapes. So, whether you think about the shots is not really point. Something in you, perhaps more deep than conscious thought, is leading your eye to where it goes and what pictures it makes of the world. Haphazardness is guided by something, even if it's not the conscious you.

[Supriyo]

Some people here are dismissive of Andy’s work. I tend to believe, they may have some sort of a vision of their own for this kind of projects. So, let me throw this question in the air, if one of you were to take up such a project of photographing holocost survivors and other senior people in a beach community, sort of documenting a fleeting era, how would you do it. What would you have done differently, and how that would have enriched the goal of the project?