Should I Enter the FF DSLR World with a 5div or a D850?

[ilkka_nissila]

I don’t regard the 85/1.4 AF-S to be ”compromised”; I consider it excellent and often use it in preference to the 105/1,4 (which is sharper but not as pleasing to my eye especially because of the cat’s eyes bokeh). To my eye the 85/1.4 AF-S produces natural and beautiful images out of the box and it is much more pleasing to handle because of the normal size and weight. The Sigma 50/1.4 and 85/1.4 art range from 2x to 3x the weight of what is conventional for those focal lengths and apertures. I wouldn’t even put them in the list of contenders for possible purchase because of that. If one wants to make an ultra high quality prime do it like Leica and make it light weight.

[Andrew Garrard]

I believe the D850 is now in stock at some retailers without going on a waiting list (Grays of Westminster announced general availability which to me suggests their waiting lists have been fulfilled; I suppose it could also mean non-NPS members can get them?).

 

Don't tell me that! I must remember not to load my credit card up with things I can't afford... (But this possibly ruins my otherwise helpful argument.)

 

I don’t regard the 85/1.4 AF-S to be”compromised”

 

I realise I was being simplistic. It's not as sharp as the Sigma or Zeiss (despite stellar reviews at launch), and it has quite extreme LoCA. The 50mm is arguably similar, but worse. I'd prefer not to have the mechanical vignetting of bokeh on the Sigma, but since weight doesn't bother me, I do consider it the more modern design, despite its other trade-offs. I have a (okay, more than one) 50mm f/1.8 as a "small" lens; the Art is the first 50mm f/1.4 I've felt was worth my money - the 85mm is still on my shopping list (with the 135 f/1.8).

 

But YMMV. Some people like the characteristics of the 85mm f/1.4 AF-D, whereas I wouldn't touch it with a bargepole. :-)

[BeBu Lamar]

A second thread three pages long on the same issue - the gentleman just needs to "finally decide" as the old song goes, and buy something, or not. Any quality camera with a decent range of lenses 16MP or better will do the job.

The problem is the OP won't be able to decide by asking others. Each camera has its pros and cons but only the OP can determine which is acceptable to the OP. He may expect more replies in favor of the Nikon since this is the Nikon section of the forum but I would think in general there are equal numbers of recommendation for either one and also an equal number of recommendation to buy something else altogether.

[Mary Doo]

Mary, with all respect, those links do not point to reviews. A review is where someone uses the camera for a while and then writes their impressions.

 

Ikka, there are reviews and then more reviews along the range of reviews. These reviews are based upon the Nikon-described video features, written by people who are familiar with DSLR videos. They are credible enough within the limitation of the content.

 

TBH, the main concern making me overthink currently is the future, and the video :)

For the future, its almost impossible to say what might happen. I am worried how Nikon's video would be. Would it be awful, or good but not excellant. (I won't do a lot of video, but some occasional video shoots.)

 

If you are not doing a lot of videos, and you like Nikon, please just go to buy it. Or Canon, or whatever. Or use your cell phone. They are plenty good enough. How long does it take you to decide what to eat for dinner? ;)

[BeBu Lamar]

Ikka, there are reviews and then more reviews along the range of reviews. These reviews are based upon the Nikon-described video features, written by people who are familiar with DSLR videos. They are credible enough within the limitation of the content.

 

I usually takes me about an hour to decide what to eat for dinner. I think it took me less than that to decide buying the Nikon Df.

 

If you are not doing a lot of videos, and you like Nikon, please just go to buy it. Or Canon, or whatever. Or use your cell phone. They are plenty good enough. How long does it take you to decide what to eat for dinner? ;)

[Sandy Vongries]

The problem is the OP won't be able to decide by asking others.

Ya think? Like letting someone else choose friends for you.

[BeBu Lamar]

Ya think? Like letting someone else choose friends for you.

 

Certainly! Just that there are too many posts asking the same question which can't really be answered.

[Andrew Garrard]

Certainly! Just that there are too many posts asking the same question which can't really be answered.

 

To be fair, often people will have specific uses and be comparing camera models that have identifiable differences, and we actually can help. Hussain was perfectly reasonable to ask. Unfortunately, with a wide enough range of uses, some of which can't be known in advance, and two very capable cameras, other than pointing out minor differences in case he thinks they matter, all we can do is shrug.

 

I don't want to scare people off from asking for help in general, though. We're as informed a community about the subject as you're likely to find.

[ilkka_nissila]

Ikka, there are reviews and then more reviews along the range of reviews. These reviews are based upon the Nikon-described video features, written by people who are familiar with DSLR videos. They are credible enough within the limitation of the content.

 

People who write a blog post based on specifications without seeing the camera and make misleading claims aren't "reviewers". A review in my mind is something which is written after a few months of practical use. For example "Sadly, there is no information yet on whether Nikon have implemented any sort of flat picture profile, or details on the picture profiles and bit rates for video. Much like in the world of Canon DSLRs, there is no peaking or zebras." The D850 does have flat profile, zebras and peaking for FullHD, though no zebras or peaking in 4K. (Why could the author simply wait until they have the correct information?) Canon 5D IV offers C-Log and Nikon D850 offers flat profile, for similar purposes. Canon have the nice dual pixel AF whereas Nikon offer focus peaking for manual focus aid in FullHD mode (which is more important for video, autofocus or manual focus?). However the Canon 5D IV is widely panned by video people because of the 1.7x crop, very large files and no external recording support. Nikon's 4K is full frame, their codec is more manageable (H.264 with 144Mb/s), there is external recording support also in 4K and the memory cards are faster so you can transfer the videos faster to computer. It would seem in this case Nikon offer better video features apart from the omission of phase-detect AF during video recording. It is also confirmed the D850 video image quality is very competitive:

 

Nikon D850 vs everything - EOSHD

 

and here is a comparison between some contemporary competitors for 4K video quality at various ISO

 

 

I use a Panasonic GH4R for video in low light, it is micro four thirds, works very well for my low light monitoring purposes, but I wouldn't choose that for still photography. Full frame should be better in low light of course, as well as really shallow depth of field but is much more expensive and the Panasonic offered a version without recording limit so we chose that (unfortunately that limit was removed only for 4K recording, not FullHd, which is unfortunate). I use manual focus for video at work. The peaking in the Panasonic works very well for that purpose. I haven't used the D850 yet but know that it supports peaking in FullHD. For video purposes I find lenses that support manual focus well to be very useful, and because of Nikon's mount compatibility it's possible to get manual focus primes with good focusing characteristics very affordably on the second hand market. For autofocus during video, other manufacturers are ahead (Sony, Canon in particular). Personally I wouldn't want my videos to shift in and out of focus even slightly which is why manual focus fits my purposes in that area. For Nikons I can use my iPad as a big screen through the Manfrotto digital director holder/adapter/software. It adds focus peaking and a large screen (also to older cameras) so manual focus is easier but of course it requires some clamps/mounts to properly take advantage of in practical use. In practice I think for video a dedicated camera (such as a mirrorless one) is more practical than a DSLR but of course there is the need to get lenses for different systems, then.

Edited December 3, 2017 by ilkka_nissila

[ilkka_nissila]

But YMMV. Some people like the characteristics of the 85mm f/1.4 AF-D, whereas I wouldn't touch it with a bargepole. :)

 

I regret selling that wonderful lens, I think it was my favorite of all AF D lenses. But I wanted a lens that could focus through eyeglasses on the eye reliably and the AF-S version did that, while reducing CA by a large amount, so I switched to the newer lens. But I feel the AF D produced absolutely beautiful results (apart from that eyeglass focusing issue) by f/1.8 (wide open the AF-S is clearly better).

[Mary Doo]

People who write a blog post based on specifications without seeing the camera and make misleading claims aren't "reviewers". A review in my mind is something which is written after a few months of practical use.

 

Ikka, there are varying degrees of depth in reviews,. The key is whether the author has credible work or a suitable background in the subject. If the author does not have a credible background, I certainly would not trust his/her review or comments no matter how many hours he/she had used that piece of equipment. Both of the authors of the two articles are well published. I am not that much into videos, so discussions are academic. Hwvr, the many videos by Ogy Stoilov are respectable enough, though I have seen better ones.

 

Another reason I showed those two articles, and not the one you cited, was to hopefully limit the discussion between Nikon and Canon. Yes, I did see the one comparing D850 to Panasonic and Sony. But using this comparison would lead the discussion to go all over the place. I personally use Nikon as well as Olympus EM1 II, which is excellent in many ways, including videos. But that is another story.

[BeBu Lamar]

To be fair, often people will have specific uses and be comparing camera models that have identifiable differences, and we actually can help. Hussain was perfectly reasonable to ask. Unfortunately, with a wide enough range of uses, some of which can't be known in advance, and two very capable cameras, other than pointing out minor differences in case he thinks they matter, all we can do is shrug.

 

I don't want to scare people off from asking for help in general, though. We're as informed a community about the subject as you're likely to find.

 

Now that I have read the OP posts in the Canon section I feel that the OP already bought the Canon and now has doubt. By the way the 5D mk IV was more expensive than the D850 but over the black friday it was less than the D850 and Canon even throw in the grip for free.

[Andrew Garrard]

Given how much Nikon charge for the grip, that's considerable, BeBu.

 

Unless there was a recent update on the Canon forum, that's not how I read things - but if there's doubt, he certainly shouldn't have any. Whichever camera is "better" or a better deal, it's certainly better to have the camera, and exchanging it just loses you time you could be shooting. :-)

[Two23]

In the end, the camera will make the least difference in your photography. I selected Nikon because there were more lenses and accessories available. Here's a graph showing the sensor performance of Canon 5 D4, Nikon D500, Nikon D850, D800E. Note how virtually nonexistent the difference is between the $3,200 D850 and the $1,000 D800E. This is why I refuse to pay big money for camera bodies--the difference to justify it just isn't there.

 

 

 

Read Noise in DNs versus ISO Setting

 

Read Noise in DNs versus ISO Setting

 

For some reason the link won't save the D500/D800E/D850/Canon 5D4 comparison. You can add them yourself by clicking on the camera from the list. What you're going to see is there is virtually no difference at all that shows up on a graph.

 

 

Kent in SD

Edited December 4, 2017 by Two23

[ShunCheung]

Get me the $$ and I will do so :)

Your time is worth some money, perhaps a lot of money, too. IMO you are over-thinking the whole situation and is leading you to nowhere.

 

After a certain point, you are better off just pick a path and move forward. Don't even bother to consider those "what if I choose differently" ....

[BeBu Lamar]

Now that I have read the OP posts in the Canon section I feel that the OP already bought the Canon and now has doubt. By the way the 5D mk IV was more expensive than the D850 but over the black friday it was less than the D850 and Canon even throw in the grip for free.

 

I think the OP already bought the Canon and is having buyer remorse. He is not looking for replacing it with the D850 but rather confirmation from us that he made the right choice.

[Andrew Garrard]

I could be wrong, but I'm not reading it like that, BeBu. The last posts I see in the Canon forum are asking the same questions - am I missing something? Remember Hussain has a 650D, so we know he has a Canon anyway.

 

As for regrets, I hope we've answered. Personally the 5DIV appeals to me less than the D810, never mind the D850 (although it's closer than the 5DIII) - but that's the style of shooting I do, and it's almost definitely less clear cut for Hussain's list of cases. As everyone has said, they're both very capable, and if you're looking back you'll miss the shot.

 

Or of interest, if you weren't already in the Nikon system (if you are), who here would have been tempted by the 5DIV over Nikon's options (D810 or D850)? It's very capable, but I'm curious whether it would have converted a biased sample. I'm guessing some D700 stalwarts jumped to the 5DIII for speed when the alternative was a D800 (if you're snobbish about the D750), but I don't know how many would have done if they had no prior investment.

[Dieter Schaefer]

I could be wrong, but I'm not reading it like that, BeBu.

Me neither.

if you weren't already in the Nikon system (if you are), who here would have been tempted by the 5DIV over Nikon's options (D810 or D850)?

There have been two occasions where I considered jumping ship (OK, not fully, but adding some Canon equipment): getting a 40D because I wanted the 400/5.6 lens (rather than dealing with my Nikon 300/4 with TC-14E). The second time was with the introduction of the 7D when I was getting rather tired of waiting for Nikon's D400 no-show. In both instances, I didn't follow through. Canon's control layout doesn't really appeal to me and about the only time I thought a Canon body felt better in my hands than a Nikon one was with the 7D compared to what Nikon offered at the time (D7000 or D7100, can't remember which). So no, the Canon 5DIV does not tempt me but (leaving the money aspect out of the equation for a moment) I would get one in order to use three lenses from the Canon system: the 11-24/4, the 400/4DO and the 200-400/4. Not going to happen though.

[BeBu Lamar]

I could be wrong, but I'm not reading it like that, BeBu. The last posts I see in the Canon forum are asking the same questions - am I missing something? Remember Hussain has a 650D, so we know he has a Canon anyway.

 

As for regrets, I hope we've answered. Personally the 5DIV appeals to me less than the D810, never mind the D850 (although it's closer than the 5DIII) - but that's the style of shooting I do, and it's almost definitely less clear cut for Hussain's list of cases. As everyone has said, they're both very capable, and if you're looking back you'll miss the shot.

 

Or of interest, if you weren't already in the Nikon system (if you are), who here would have been tempted by the 5DIV over Nikon's options (D810 or D850)? It's very capable, but I'm curious whether it would have converted a biased sample. I'm guessing some D700 stalwarts jumped to the 5DIII for speed when the alternative was a D800 (if you're snobbish about the D750), but I don't know how many would have done if they had no prior investment.

 

I could be wrong too! If I jump ship it will never be to Canon. It could be anything but Canon. I am bias against Canon rather than bias for Nikon.

[photo_galleries]

Actually, from a quick look at the thread in the Canon forum yesterday, it sounds like he's expanded his list to Nikon v. Canon v. Sony.

[Dieter Schaefer]

Actually, from a quick look at the thread in the Canon forum yesterday, it sounds like he's expanded his list to Nikon v. Canon v. Sony.

The thread in the Canon forum is the older one, so the OP has actually eliminated the Sony from consideration when posting here.

[heimbrandt]

While we endlessly can debate the merits of the two cameras in question, wonder what argument or comment is the original poster looking for in order to actually arrive at a conclusion on which to buy?

 

What is it that you still feel is missing in all answers in both threads?

 

If you feel they are so similar that it is very difficult to differentiate them, that is also another way of saying let the wallet choose.

[Andrew Garrard]

I suspect if the OP knew what to ask that would help him decide, he'd ask it! And, sadly, they're about the same price, too. But you can always flip a coin.

 

Here's another way to choose: are we any friendlier than the Canon forum folks? :-)

[Dieter Schaefer]

And, sadly, they're about the same price, too.

As I pointed out a few days ago, including the two lenses the OP considers, there’s currently about a $1500 price differential here in the US. Don’t know if it is any as drastic where the OP lives.

 

Given how he’s apparently agonizing over the decision what to purchase, I would not be surprised if he would end up unhappy with whatever camera he ends up purchasing (if it ever comes to that). A case of analysis paralysis, I’m afraid.

[Andrew Garrard]

True, Dieter - I was only counting the body, and as you've said, the whole system counts (although the price is somewhat closer if you don't try to get the latest and greatest versions of the lenses Nikon has updated more recently than Canon, and will probably reverse the next time Canon updates things).

 

Hussain: Are you still following? How are you doing? Is there any other input we can give you?