What is appropriate in street photography?

[tomspielman]

Yes, I started at the start and followed the links. Whether you admit it or not, photography and enjoyment of photography is, at its foundation, voyeuristic. If people present themselves in public in a way that makes you uncomfortable, you should look away. If you see someone's photographic work that makes you uncomfortable, look away. Don't apply your values to others.

 

You seem to be arguing about degrees. Simply look away when the degree is passed that makes you uncomfortable.

 

It's less about what makes me uncomfortable and more about what would make the people being photographed uncomfortable.

[glen_h]

No one can pretend to know what the photographer's intent or state of mind was,

(snip)

 

This is certainly true. But if a photographer has thousands of pictures of teen girls, and mostly nothing else, it does seem suspicious.

 

I suspect that I might have a few pictures in some of the mentioned categories, but not a significantly large number of them.

 

I suppose I do have some pictures of girls on my daughter's softball team. For one, there was the challenge of getting the ball just of of the hand of the pitcher. But also lots of pictures from my son's baseball team.

[tomspielman]

Have you looked at the pictures? They're of young women, not young girls. That they're scantily clad is to be expected on a beach in the summer. What do you propose then in order to "protect" them from staring male eyes, that they all wear burqa's, or that there's a separation of men and women in public places?

 

I've looked at them and and it seems to me that quite a number of them are under age, - girls in other words.

 

I hope that people are considerate of one another and regulate their behavior accordingly. I think it's fine and natural for people to look at one another. But how you look and how long you look matters. Most of us are taught this at a young age and continue to learn as we get older. Staring at women's chest while talking to her is rude (for example). Do you agree or or not?

 

If the pictures are intrusive it shouldn't have anything to do with the gender or "collective" (which some people are so eager to speak for, in the protection of the collective of course. If you can't see how demeaning and oppressive that is, then you're just willfully blinded by your ideology and your claim to moral superiority).

being photographed.

 

There's courtesy and respect. And then there's political correctness with its compelled speech and thought (all under the guise of equality and freedom of course), it will be the fascism of the future doing more harm than it can ever do good. It is happening today and people shouldn't be afraid or made feel guilty (like "You're a bigot". Nope, that tactic and claim to moral superiority will not work with me, try some critical thinking instead if you're going to engage me) when rising up to it.

 

Do you suppose these girls (and their parents in the case of the under age ones) are OK with pictures of their asses being taken by some stranger and posted on the Internet? I think most of us who think this is not appropriate believe so because these are unwilling subjects, Further, while the motives of the photographer are not known they are pretty suspect. The fact that these are young girls does matter. Young boys would be creepy too though. You just don't tend to see these kinds of pictures of them.

 

I don't think anyone has suggested that it should be illegal or that the photographer should be banned from PN, at least not most of us. I'm not sure where you're seeing the Facism. It's no more to Fascist to see this behavior as not OK as to insist that it is.

 

To put a different spin on it, let's take away the beach and the bikinis. Imagine it's a weekly teen night a local bar and you've got some adult male showing up every week to take pictures of the girls and post them on the Internet. How long until management shows this guy the door? The beach is different because it's a public space, but the behavioral norms (in my mind) as far what's OK and what's not are the same. How is what the beach photographer doing any different than what the bar photographer is doing?

Edited December 4, 2017 by tomspielman

[paul ron]

 

Do you suppose these girls (and their parents in the case of the under age ones) are OK with pictures of their asses being taken by some stranger and posted on the Internet? I think most of us who think this is not appropriate believe so because these are unwilling subjects, Further, while the motives of the photographer are not known they are pretty suspect. The fact that these are young girls does matter. Young boys would be creepy too though. You just don't tend to see these kinds of pictures of them.

 

I don't think anyone has suggested that it should be illegal or that the photographer should be banned from PN, at least not most of us. I'm not sure where you're seeing the Facism. It's no more to Fascist to see this behavior as not OK as to insist that it is.

 

To put a different spin on it, let's take away the beach and the bikinis. Imagine it's a weekly teen night a local bar and you've got some adult male showing up every week to take pictures of the girls and post them on the Internet. How long until management shows this guy the door? The beach is different because it's a public space, but the behavioral norms (in my mind) as far what's OK and what's not are the same. How is what the beach photographer doing any different than what the bar photographer is doing?

 

 

If people are so worried about having their asses posted on the internet, perhaps they should be more conscience of how they look when out in public?

 

It just comes down to opinions vs law. You cant tell someone what they are doing is wrong just because it goes against your beliefs... you are entitled to an opinion but you cant push that on someone else as if it were the law. The secret is mind your own business and if you find something offending, turn away... not dictate as if you have every right.

 

Again, what this fellow was doing is not illegal here in the USA. There is no right to privacy when you are out in public and that applies to all ages, sex, race, n creed.

 

Its getting so stupid lately, now banning statues because it offend someone? Judging based on present day norms is just ethnocentric and unjust. Lets go after George Washington for being part of a militia and the signers of the constitution for having slaves when it was a way of life. We cant be so self centered and use peer censorship as if it were the law. Stop making people feel guilty for everything you may not agree with. That has noting to do with respect or ethics. If you want to walk around with your ass hanging out.. feel free to do so, but stop bitching when you see how stupid you look when it gets posted on the internet.

 

BTW the bar example is a different story.. that's on private property, you need permission and thats at the owners discretion. Now if the photographer were shooting from the street into the bar... he is within his rights to do so.... all teh owner can do is shut the door. Now if a woman is topless in public, you have every right to photographer her. Neither one is doing anything illegal and within their rights. You may feel its wrong as her boy friend or husband but too dam bad, then put your shirt back on!

 

Anytime you feel you are right, call the cops n let them decide who is wrong.

 

Perhaps reading the law may clear this nonsense... not political correctness bibles and more opinions.

 

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[glen_h]

(snip)

To put a different spin on it, let's take away the beach and the bikinis.

Imagine it's a weekly teen night a local bar and you've got some adult male showing up every week to take pictures of the girls and post them on the Internet.

(snip)

 

Just the girls?

 

And if he also comes on non-teen nights, and posts those, too?

 

Or comes in every night, takes pictures about equally over all people, and doesn't post them?

 

Seems to me that you need context, and with just one example you don't have enough.

[tomspielman]

Political correctness - the way it's currently going throughout the Western world and which in part is responsible for a certain type of reaction in the context of the OP - will lead to fascism. Political correctness is something from the far left. I don't affiliate with the far left any more than I would want to affiliate with the far right, or the central left and right for that matter. That's the problem with not seeing the dangers of it, when one associates or identifies too much with the left/right ideology and therefore thinks everything it does and propagates must be ok, or if it's not ok, at least it's not dangerous in terms of the social consequences. Now that's dangerous.

 

I don't see this a left/right issue at all. You could say that feminists don't like women being objectified this way, therefore the left is against it. Or you could say that conservative people judge any perceived sexual deviancy more harshly so they'd be against it. Both left and right want to control other people's behavior while still being able to do the stuff they think is OK. They just don't agree on which behaviors should be controlled and which not.

 

To be honest in this case it seems like you're using the term fascism because of its bad connotation rather than something that really fits. Fascism is usually associated with the far right and communism with the far left, but to me it's almost a circle. The far left and far right have a lot in common.

 

And no, I don't see how having an opinion about how people should conduct themselves puts you on a path to fascism.

Edited December 4, 2017 by tomspielman

[tomspielman]

If people are so worried about having their asses posted on the internet, perhaps they should be more conscience of how they look when out in public?

 

It just comes down to opinions vs law. You cant tell someone what they are doing is wrong just because it goes against your beliefs... you are entitled to an opinion but you cant push that on someone else as if it were the law. The secret is mind your own business and if you find something offending, turn away... not dictate as if you have every right.

 

Again, what this fellow was doing is not illegal here in the USA. There is no right to privacy when you are out in public and that applies to all ages, sex, race, n creed.

 

Its getting so stupid lately, now banning statues because it offend someone? Judging based on present day norms is just ethnocentric and unjust. Lets go after George Washington for being part of a militia and the signers of the constitution for having slaves when it was a way of life. We cant be so self centered and use peer censorship as if it were the law. Stop making people feel guilty for everything you may not agree with. That has noting to do with respect or ethics. If you want to walk around with your ass hanging out.. feel free to do so, but stop bitching when you see how stupid you look when it gets posted on the internet.

 

BTW the bar example is a different story.. that's on private property, you need permission and thats at the owners discretion. Now if the photographer were shooting from the street into the bar... he is within his rights to do so.... all teh owner can do is shut the door. Now if a woman is topless in public, you have every right to photographer her. Neither one is doing anything illegal and within their rights. You may feel its wrong as her boy friend or husband but too dam bad, then put your shirt back on!

 

Anytime you feel you are right, call the cops n let them decide who is wrong.

 

Perhaps reading the law may clear this nonsense... not political correctness bibles and more opinions.

 

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Just curious, who is dictating anything? I'm not.

 

And was the original question about what was legal or what was appropriate? I don't think there's any legal problem with what he's doing and I never said there was. One can do lots of legal things that are still rude, creepy, and inappropriate.

[Sandy Vongries]

Hamster, or if you prefer Gerbil Wheel discussion. Pretty much everything has been said, all positions occupied.

Going nowhere IMO.

[tomspielman]

As for your other points, you're drawing out all kinds of analogies and situations that simply aren't applicable to the matter of the OP, which is primarily one of morals and therefore politics, let's be honest about that too.

 

Leaving the analogies out for a minute, I did want to address this last point. Of course this is about morals. If you're asking about what's appropriate behavior, which the OP did, at some point that goes back to morals and values. Politics? I think that has been dragged to the discussion in manor that doesn't really fit. Pick a right leaning conservative Dad and place him on the beach watching this guy take pictures of his 15 year old daughter. Is he less likely to have words with this guy or more likely than a left leaning Dad?

 

Don't think it matters.

[tomspielman]

You don't see it in this thread? Women are reduced to a group identity, a collective, that needs to be spoken for and protected. The self-righteous moralists criticize exactly that which they're guilty of themselves, only from the other direction. And not all feminists agree with the "women are objectified" or "men are oppressors" meme, these are usually the feminists who can actually think critically beyond such superficial stereotypes.

 

I understand the point you're trying to make, and that you are trying really hard to say that by labeling this activity as bad we are oppressing women, - I just think it's quite a stretch.

 

I don't know how you can talk about the appropriateness of this behavior in the general sense without reducing it to groups. Those groups being photographers and subjects, women and men, - and teenage girls.

 

Besides, not only laws, but norms of behavior are developed for exactly the purpose of protecting groups, - of all sorts. You may not like it, but there are pragmatic and sound reasons for why that's the case.

[tomspielman]

E

It's by the pushing of their respective ideologies that will give the justification to either one to come out of the shadows. These things don't happen in a vacuum. Either way what you end up with is an authoritarian nightmare that presents itself as the solution.

 

Every society has norms of behavior. Having an opinion about how people should act and even creating laws doesn't make anyone a fascist anymore than deciding you don't want laws for every little thing makes you an anarchist.

[glen_h]

As for the pictures in the links above, they look like they are from years ago.

 

Maybe they are new, and just make to look old, but I think for actual old pictures, many people will treat them differently.

 

Things were different years ago, or we imagine that they were. We don't use the standards of today on them.

 

I don't know if that is good or bad, though.