Question on Kodachrome and Kodak Vision 3 film

[johngoodman]

Is buying expired Kodachrome film a good idea? I wouldn't mind if it caused discoloration. But is expired film from decades ago completely unusable?

 

On Kodak Vision 3 film. Do I need to load and unload the film in complete darkness. Or is it okay if I do it in a well lit room or daylight?

[ben_hutcherson]

As of Dec. 31 2010 officially(unofficially mid-January 2011) there are no operating Kodachrome labs in the world. Kodak no longer supplies the chemistry. There are places that will process it as black and white(either negative or reversal) and there are a few folks working on home-brew color development with varied success. Kodachrome is unlike other color processes in that the dye couplers are part of the chemistry(C-41, E6, and ECN-2 all have dye couplers in the emulsion). Thus, getting the color correct(regardless of the storage of the film) is dependent on having the correct dye couplers in the correct solution and concentration at the appropriate time in the development process. It's not an easy thing to reverse engineer.

 

The real answer, though, is that realistically you can forget it as a color film.

 

I have little experience with movie stock, but it would help to know your format. As far as I know, Super 8 is designed for daylight loading while larger formats have to be loaded into the camera magazine in darkness.

[JDMvW]

There is also an anti-halation black coating that has to be removed (link). It's not just a matter B&W chemistry.

 

Unless somebody does the impossible (we've seen it before), B&W is it- and even expensive or home B&W developing is not really all that great.

[ben_hutcherson]

There is also an anti-halation black coating that has to be removed (link). It's not just a matter B&W chemistry.

 

Unless somebody does the impossible (we've seen it before), B&W is it- and even expensive or home B&W developing is not really all that great.

 

I would not say "impossible" as there are some threads on APUG where people have been able to get color images at home. At the last update, though, yellow was proving to be especially troublesome so the color isn't right. I suspect that it's close to being there and the guys working on it will make it, albeit the long-term stability may also be an issue with the current chemistry. It's still a royal pain, though, as the process(the real process) involves 3 separate light re-exposures using the correct colored light.

 

Still, though, I'd say the odds of it going into widespread use are miniscule.

[tomspielman]

Timely question. I'm going to shoot some 50 year old 8mm kodachrome on the 4th. Seeing as how I don't have a suitable developing tank yet for movie film, I'm not sure when I'll develop it and my expectations aren't high. It will Black & White or maybe various shades of blue.

 

I got the film for free, otherwise I don't think I'd bother.

 

So no, it isn't completely unusable, but as others have said, the best likely outcome in the traditional sense is bad to mediocre black and white. You might get some interesting effects that could make it appealing from an artistic standpoint. There are few places that will process it for you. They will charge a lot and it still won't be in color.

 

Vision 3 is a movie film so that's what I assume you're using it for. I'm only familiar with 8mm and Super 8. Super 8 comes in a cartridge (as mentioned) and loading in subdued light is fine. Doesn't need to be in complete darkness.

 

There are some people that use Vision 3 and other movie film for still photography (cinestill). I don't know much about the details. I'm guessing for 35mm film the sprocket holes are the same? JDM mention the anti-halation layer which adds another step to the development process. It has to be removed.

[chuck909]

Is buying expired Kodachrome film a good idea?

No.

[eddy_d]

It depends what you are using it for. I use fresh and expired film.

[johngoodman]

It depends what you are using it for. I use fresh and expired film.

Would recently expired film that can still be processed produce interesting effects?

[ben_hutcherson]

Film expiration dates are not an on/off switch.

 

A lot depends on how the film was stored. ALL of my film goes in the freezer as soon as I get it. I have Fuji Velvia that expired in 1996 that still looks more or less fine. I didn't buy it new, but most large format photographers are particular about how they store their film and I have a good "chain of custody" on this particular stock.

 

At the same time, I've seen film just barely out of expiration that kicked around in a hot car for a summer and looked terrible.

 

A lot of times, the issue isn't so much color shifts but more that you see an increase in base fog, grain, and a decrease in contrast.

[Karim Ghantous]

John, I'm not sure if you want to use Vision 3 in a 35mm camera, but if you do, you certainly can, and you can handle it the same as C-41 and E6. It's always recommended to load and unload away from direct light.

 

As others have pointed out, you either need to remove the anti-halation carbon layer (Remjet) or buy CineStill, which is Vision 3 without the carbon layer (but you will get halation around bright highlights).

 

The other option is the buy standard Vision 3 loaded into 135 cassettes, Remjet intact, and send it to Little Film Lab, which is set up to process movie film.

[glen_h]

I buy and use black and white film decades old. Most often, with normal room temperature, it is fine, with just a little fog.

 

Color film goes bad much faster, and also costs more to process. I would only use old color film, if I had enough to test some rolls, and then use the rest knowing the quality from the tests.

[glen_h]

As for Kodachrome, a few years ago someone gave the chemical names for the couplers. The yellow coupler seems to be a chemical that you can buy from ordinary chemical companies, for $500/50mg. That is, $10000/gram. I don't know how much it takes for a roll, though. The others, they would consider as a special order, at maybe 10 times the price.

 

I do know people who work on keeping old computers running, even if the costs go to $1 million. If someone had the same thoughts about Kodachrome, it could probably be done. But for the price of us ordinary users, no. There is a lab nearby that will do E6 for $11. Not so bad, and I might do one roll a year. If it was a lot more, then I wouldn't even do that. I might pay $11 to process a roll of Kodachrome, but not $11,000.

[ben_hutcherson]

As for Kodachrome, a few years ago someone gave the chemical names for the couplers. The yellow coupler seems to be a chemical that you can buy from ordinary chemical companies, for $500/50mg. That is, $10000/gram. I don't know how much it takes for a roll, though. The others, they would consider as a special order, at maybe 10 times the price.

 

The dye couplers that I've found listed are pricey, but not in that range. One of them is about $300 for 5g, and the other two in the range of $50 for 5g. That's from Sigma-Aldrich. VWR was missing one of them, and the general public prices were similar(the contract pricing I see isn't too different) I'm not sure how purchasing for the general public is. I can order from them without too much trouble (I have colleagues who self-fund their research so do it all the time) but then I also talk to our VWR and Sigma sales reps probably once a week and they are by my office once a month or so.

 

It's not cheap to get started, but that's also enough to last a LONG time for home use.

 

Of course, it's also worth mentioning that Ron Mowrey said that particular set of dyes would work but probably not give TOTALLY correct colors or have great stability.

[Karim Ghantous]

Ben, that sounds very interesting!

[glen_h]

(snip)

 

It's not cheap to get started, but that's also enough to last a LONG time for home use.

 

 

I don't have much of an idea for how much coupler goes into a batch of developer.

 

The home use C41 and E6 don't do replenishing, but the price isn't all that bad.

You do two or three rolls with 250ml of chemistry.

 

But with expensive couplers, the price could go up a lot. I suspect that these

are reagent grade, which is much too good for most photographic work, though

for most chemicals, not all that expensive. Spectroscopy grade chemicals are

a lot more expensive. Finding photographic grade couplers is likely harder.

[ben_hutcherson]

But with expensive couplers, the price could go up a lot. I suspect that these

are reagent grade, which is much too good for most photographic work, though

for most chemicals, not all that expensive. Spectroscopy grade chemicals are

a lot more expensive. Finding photographic grade couplers is likely harder.

 

Even for chemistry teaching lab purchases these days, I buy ACS reagent grade or better most of the time. I can often get HPLC grade solvents on sale also.

 

Chemical manufacturing has gotten so good in the last several years that often times there's effectively no savings between buying technical or histological grade and ACS Reagent or better. A few years ago, our ordering guy thought he'd save $50 by buying a 55 gallon drum of technical grade acetone, but by the time we considered the amount we lost in the transfer and the 15 liters or so that are still in our solvent shed with no good way to get them I insisted on ordering nothing but the $55 20L drums of ACS Reagent from Sigma. Sometimes I can even get spectroscopic or HPLC grade solvents for less than reagent if one of the vendors is running a sale.

[Hector Javkin]

I loved Kodachrome when Kodak processed it and later when Kodalux and A&I and others did. Ever since processing is no longer available, I might accept some for free. I could use it to refresh my skills with a film leader extractor.

[glen_h]

Even for chemistry teaching lab purchases these days, I buy ACS reagent grade or better most of the time. I can often get HPLC grade solvents on sale also.

 

(snip)

 

Yes, for most chemicals, reagent is reasonably priced and quality.

 

For solvents for washing or fuels (some years ago, I remember looking at technical ethanol for a stove fuel), if you can use large drums, technical grade is cheaper.

 

I suspect that for actual photography work, chemicals that you need in larger quantities, sodium thiosulfate, sodium sulfite, and sodium carbonate, and if one uses the larger amount, photographic or technical might be worthwhile.

 

Now, what grade would Kodak use to run a full scale K14 system 40 years ago. (When I was in high school, in Rockville MD, I remember a tour of the Kodak processing lab. It was a rare special event, not something that they normally did.)