Fixer and the Environment

[Moving On]

Here ya go.....turn the pages in the window.

Kodak Environmental Guidlines for Amatuer Photographers

[carbon_dragon]

That one said that [at the time 1999] home processors weren’t required to recover silver. That may still be the case (probably is). It also says it’s a good idea and you can use the Kodak chemical recovery cartridge (no longer available now, looks like a bucket which probably includes steel wool) and also says you might be able to dispose of it in local waste disposal services run by your local government. One interesting new thing it says (that I didn’t know) is that it’s easier on the system if you combine your developer and your fixer before pouring down the drain because one is acidic and on is a base so they tend to neutralize each other.

 

I’m perfectly willing to manually pour the fixer slowly through steel wool into a bucket. As a matter of fact I already have that stuff. What I don’t know though is what to do with the resulting sludge/steel wool and the document doesn’t say. Also the bucket I have isn’t sealed like the Kodak “cartridge” so I’m not sure if it generates any fumes I would need to worry about. Also the document is mum about how one disposes of the used Kodak cartridge/bucket.

 

I used to bring my used fixer to Wolf Camera’s main store in Atlanta. Sadly, Wolf no longer exists, except as a brand name.

 

Digital bits (1’s and 0’s) are a bit easier to recycle!;)

[Moving On]

One interesting new thing it says (that I didn’t know) is that it’s easier on the system if you combine your developer and your fixer before pouring down the drain because one is acidic and on is a base so they tend to neutralize each other.

Methinks that was mentioned in this thread.

[Moving On]

Digital bits (1’s and 0’s) are a bit easier to recycle!;)

Until you consider the silver in the electronics and the lithium in the batteries......

[Sandy Vongries]

Carbon - are you "fixated"? ;) Perhaps a quick shot of Hypo eliminator followed by a large water chaser?:D Actually went down the same path when I first moved into the country - without Alan and some of the other helpful folks here, it was much harder to track down the info. Finally decided that even my septic could handle the tiny quantities in question. No problems, also very tiny volume.

[Moving On]

God help us if someone’s wedding band goes down the drain....

;)

[carbon_dragon]

Carbon - are you "fixated"? ;) Perhaps a quick shot of Hypo eliminator followed by a large water chaser?:D Actually went down the same path when I first moved into the country - without Alan and some of the other helpful folks here, it was much harder to track down the info. Finally decided that even my septic could handle the tiny quantities in question. No problems, also very tiny volume.

 

Maybe. If I don't hear from the county guys I may do just that. What Is Hypo Eliminator -- Hypo Clear?

[Sandy Vongries]

Same thing. I shouldn't joke about it - a guy I knew followed some instructions on use of a different chemical given him as an obvious joke and almost died.

[carbon_dragon]

Found another "stash" of spent fixer! (hiding behind the paint) I thought I had more of this stuff. Looks like just over 2 gallons. But in future it would probably be only about 2-3/month at the most.

[Bill C]

You didn't do what I suggested in post #35, did you? That is, to see if the liquid you have can still clear a bit of film leader...

 

My guess is no, it won't clear film, which would suggest that the active component of the fixer, thiosulfate, has decomposed, leaving a sludge in the bottom of your jugs. Virtually all of the silver would most likely be in that sludge. In essence, it would already be "recovered."

[carbon_dragon]

You didn't do what I suggested in post #35, did you? That is, to see if the liquid you have can still clear a bit of film leader...

 

My guess is no, it won't clear film, which would suggest that the active component of the fixer, thiosulfate, has decomposed, leaving a sludge in the bottom of your jugs. Virtually all of the silver would most likely be in that sludge. In essence, it would already be "recovered."

 

That would be nice.

 

I have recently done fixer tests on my current fixer but not on the ones on the top shelves of my garage no. I won't be able to get to it until the temperatures moderate a little so I can get out there and move a bunch of stuff to get a ladder to that high shelf. Plus the jugs are brown opaque jugs. Not sure how I'm going to see inside that. Maybe a really strong flashlight from the top or maybe holding it up to a really strong light?

 

How long would that chemical process take to happen? How many years and would temperature factor in? It's still brutal here 85+ degrees and it's been getting cold in the winter too. Some of it is probably only a year or two old, and other bottles are much older.

[Alan Marcus]

No silver flows out of a municipal treatment plant. All the silver in the fixer you discard will have been converted to silver sulfide, perhaps within 200 yards of your drain. Silver in some forms is toxic however this compound is inert. If the stuff tests positive for silver it is because the test reagent was nitric acid, it reduces this inert compound but nature can't. You all worried about the wrong thing. It's the fixer that liberates chlorine and causes the treatment plant to induce more chlorine. Do you think a home darkroom has any impact? It will be a thimble full in relationship to the volume coming in to the treatment plant. Such dilution is not detectable by any instrumentation I know of. I also know it will do no harm.

[Bill C]

How long would that chemical process take to happen? How many years and would temperature factor in?

 

Hard to say how long. I've spent a lot of years working with replenished and regenerated chemical systems, and we just don't let those go bad. Essentially, thiosulfate systems can last for an indefinite time provided that you keep enough sulfite ion in there, and the pH is in an adequate range. The industry literature (and lore) says that higher temperatures and pH falling below about 4.0 are quick killers of thiosulfate (fixer) solutions, but I don't know anyone with first-hand knowledge of this. But if your old fixer was really decades old, I think it would have almost certainly have "sulfurized."

 

If you can get to your jugs and decant a little off the top, you can try a clearing test.

[Vincent Peri]

Hmm... home darkroom...

wash the fixer down the

drain... done...

http://bayouline.com/o2.gif

[Bill C]

That [Alan's link - the EPA Guidance Document from 1981] seems more helpful if you’re setting up a business to do photoprocessing professionally. It’s hard to parse that for what the individual should do.

 

That book was once a "bible" of sorts regarding photo effluent, so I was once pretty familiar with it, and will parse a bit for you. Check out page VI-21 regarding the toxicity of photographic silver:

A principle constituent of the fix solution is the thiosulfate ion which forms a complex with silver. The silver thiosulfate complex is stable and non-toxic to fish (bioassay test showed no effect on fathead minnows after 96 hours of exposure to the silver thiosulfate complex at concentrations up to 50 mg/l as silver).

 

Regarding what happens at the POTW (sewage treatment plant):

Studies have shown that the secondary treatment microorganisms convert the complex to silver sulfide and some metallic silver, most of which is removed from the wastewater stream by settling.

...

Silver sulfide is insoluble under normal environmental conditions. Bioassay tests have shown it to be non-toxic to fathead minnows. Dynamic 96-hour LC(50) tests for silver sulfide showed no fatalities at a maximum total silver concentration of 250 ppm.

 

I'm guessing that this needs some translation. Essentially it is saying that the photographic silver is not very toxic at all, supporting what Alan has been suggesting.

 

I should point out that these tests are for what they call "acute toxicity," roughly what happens in a short period of time, perhaps up to several months.

[DB_Gallery]

Thanks for reviving this.

I will assume you are processing 35mm wide film. A 24 exposure roll less sprocket holes has an area of 0.42 sq. ft. A 36 exposure roll has an area of 0.592 sq. ft. 1000 sq. ft. of 400 ISO film contains 1.1 Troy ounces of silver. Thus one roll of 24 exposure contains about 0.0005 T oz. and a 36 exposure contains 0.0007. Suppose you process 100 rolls of 400 ISO 36 exposure. The film stock for 1000 rolls contains 100 X 0.0007 = 0.07 T oz. When the film is processed, about 60% of this silver will be in the fixer, 40% will make up the image on black & white film. If its color film, 100% will be in the fixer.

 

OK, how much is 0.07 T oz. = about 2 grams = about 2 resins. Do you think this amount of silver down the drain will harm?

 

Normally we put steel wool in a plastic container and allow the fixer to trickle in a few drops a minute. About a inch down from the top of the container we cut an exit hole and allow fluid that exits to go down the drain.

 

This is a chemical reaction based on the activity differences between iron and silver. The silver trades places with the iron and remains as a slugged consisting of silver sulfide. The fluid that exits contains iron in solution.

 

This and the whole thread is a very timely and interesting thing to read. How do these numbers scale when one considers fiber based black and white paper?

 

I wish my scale of potential output were as small as Carbon Dragon's but alas, it is not the case. For over a decade I had been looking for suitable space for a very capable fine art darkroom, 35mm, 120 and 4x5 film printed to up to 45" x 55". About 18 months ago, I closed on a house that allows me to have nearly 500 square feet in a finished basement. The location is great and price was not too bad for the area ( very expensive ).

 

But there was a catch....it is on a septic system and we are not on city water but well water that is shared in an HOA. We had bad fires this year, my house was 1/3rd mile from the line and we were evacuated for a week. So now I am quickly becoming a water conservation guru. Both my 16x20 and 20x24 print washers have re-circulator pumps to conserve water. Both sinks have diverter valves to re-capture water and or chemistry. Only small amounts of Dektol and Xtol have gone into the drain thus far, no fixer though....but this is test volume, not production volume.

 

As much as I love the space and the home, with film volumes in the hundreds of rolls / sheets a year and more concerning, long and large printing sessions, this is a pain in the rear.

 

So as it stands right now, I have to recapture and pay for disposal of all of it and at peak volume, it could cost me well over $1,000 a year to do so. I am toying with the idea of partially evaporating the water component of it, neighbors are not that close.

 

Anyway, as water scarcity becomes a bigger and bigger problem globally, this craft is going to be under a larger and larger magnifying glass. So I have written letters of concern to all the major players in analog regarding this.

 

Anyway, here are the digs thus far, about 80% done:

 

[Bill C]

Anyway, as water scarcity becomes a bigger and bigger problem globally, this craft is going to be under a larger and larger magnifying glass. So I have written letters of concern to all the major players in analog regarding this.

 

Actually the big magnifying glass was applied, at least in the US, 'bout 30-some years ago. Kodak, Konica, and Fuji all had environmental specialists to help customers with their problems. In fact, this is when the so-called "washless" systems for color processing came about, to drastically reduce volumes of liquid to be hauled off by waste haulers. Plenty of research was done into ways to get "clean" effluent or minimize waste, even recycle water - then equipment makers, such as CPAC in NY state, would design equipment to use the new technologies. But when the huge processing volumes went away, so did the staff positions for environmental specialists.

 

I'd say that your best bet is to look to your film and paper suppliers for expertise from their companies; I expect that you will have to pay for it. All things considered, $1,000 per year to have your silver-bearing wastes hauled and disposed of may not be a bad deal.

 

I think it's a smart move to keep that silver-bearing waste out of your septic system, mainly because of the regulatory problems you might get into. I'd recommend that you keep good records on the disposal, just in case a future bureaucrat might set their sights on you.