My biggest rival charges 1/4 of what I do...

[june_daley]

<p>Hi all,<br>

So there is lots of info on the web about trying to make it in an industry where there are cheap-ographers everywhere, but this topic is generally aimed at the in-experienced charging very little.<br /><br />My frustration is with an experienced, high quality photographer who is fast becoming my biggest competitor, who charges $100. That's not just the session fee, oh no. That's her fee for the session and a disc of all the images. Yep. That is how much I charge for the session fee alone!<br /><br />So, why is it upsetting me? Well, because I just keep hearing that clients will get what they pay for etc, but that's the problem - the quality of her work is just as good as mine, she is on par, yet refuses to charge more. I have actually spoken to her (in a friendly manner of course) about it and she has told me that hubby makes plenty of money so she just does this for fun. So, call it a hobby! Don't call it a business! A business operates to make a profit.<br /><br />I am frustrated that clients will continue to compare what we each offer and will begin to undervalue what I am offering. I have already lost one client (that I know of) to her and when I asked why - they said they love my work but hers is beautiful too and she is 1/4 of the price. I will not work for free.<br /><br />This probably just sounds like a rant and perhaps it is, but would love to hear some opinions on the matter and what (if anything) I can do about it.<br /><br /></p>

[Ian Taylor]

<p>Hopefully your work is 4X better than theirs.<br>

If you are competing with someone who charges basically nothing, you have either a skills and/or client issue. There is also the chance they won't be in business long if they are not making a living wage.</p>

[AzDavid]

<p>Very frustrating! My suggestion is to make sure you are selling yourself and your professionalism as completely as possible. There's a lot more to the business than putting nice photos on a disc. A professional who runs a business should have many important qualities (reliability?) and should offer many benefits (long-term archiving?). Make sure your Web site, social media posts and other promotional materials tout everything you offer.</p>

[dcstep]

<p>I actually read your post and see that your competitor does not need money from her photography and put out work that equals your quality.</p>

<p>I'm sorry to say, but this is occurring more and more. The "hobbyists" are getting better and better, such that their works rivals professionals and they're taking on gigs, just to cover the cost of their equipment and take a tax deduction. I'm actually guilty of this in the bird/wildlife area. I sell a few things on Getty and sell the occasional print. I do try to price at the market, but I know others that are just trying to cover their costs and get that tax deduction.<br /><br /></p>

<p>I don't really have anything to offer, other than try to differentiate yourself somehow. Try to win some prestigious competitions or aggressively go after high-end, high profile clients. Elevate your game somehow. Competing on price is a losing proposition. </p>

<p>It's an interesting philosophical question. Do highly skill amateurs have an ethical obligation to charge a market price for their work, even if they don't need the money? I really think so, but I'm also torn. My excellent printer will now allow me to take my speculative images, print them 13x19", mount them on gatorboard and sell them for $50. Is that fair to wildlife photographers struggling to make a living? I've got a wonderful printer that does all my big stuff. Should I compete with my wonderful printer and beat his already very competitive prices? When it's about ego, don't we owe something to those trying to make a living?</p>

[Wouter Willemse]

<p>I do not have much of a reply (your point is very valid, but hard to solve)....Just a different thing: I hope you're not using your own real name to post this? While your point is entirely valid, I don't think it's good for business if possible customers find this post when they search for your name, and search engine ranking for this site usually works....</p>

[AJG]

<p>I think that your best bet is to try to improve your quality so that people can see the difference between your work and your competitor's. Have you been to any workshops lately, or done some reading about lighting, etc.or anything else to freshen up your work? You can also hope that as your competitor gets busier that this will seem less like a hobby to her and more like a job, and thus something she won't be willing to do without actually getting paid something for her time. The reality is that digital technology has made getting an "acceptable" picture much easier than it used to be, so low end competitors aren't going away. But there is only so much knowledge of good lighting that can be built in to a chip in the camera, and your business/people skills are probably the most important factor in all of this. Good luck!</p>

[Gup]

<p>Yes, it sounds like a rant. If you only have one competitor charging $100 I'd suggest that you get better. <br>

Where I live my competitors were the school teachers and single moms only charging $400. </p>

[Spearhead]

<p>There's an assumption here that taking "better" photos, however that is measured, will result in more jobs at a higher price. The reality is that this often isn't the case, a lot of images serve secondary roles that don't require "better" photos. I've seen this in jobs I've lost, sometimes to the (potential) client using a phone snap. And, to be honest, it has worked for what they wanted.</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>Do highly skill amateurs have an ethical obligation to charge a market price for their work, even if they don't need the money?</p>

</blockquote>

<p> <br>

No photographer has an ethical obligation to charge any specific price. There's no unions or guilds, no MAP pricing, it's a free market. If someone wants to charge a low price, there's no reason for them not to. They don't owe me anything.</p>

<p> </p>

[DickArnold]

I don't do weddings any more but when I did I was aware of the competition and what they charged. I was

moderately successful because I delivered wedding proofs in less than two weeks, charged less because I did

not hire help and did large weddings by myself. I immediately processed my work so as not to build up a

backlog. When possible I delivered print proofs face to face so I could sell more product. I also delivered

decent quality. If it were me I would broaden my market and charge what appears to be just below the average

of several competitors. It is not what you deserve but what you can get. I also worked as a volunteer in local

government, belonged to and smoozed with everyone who worked with the local Chamber of Commerce in

order to get them to like me and get their referrals. I distributed an up-to-date brochure at local businesses and

got acquainted with their proprietors. I also belonged to the Rotary where I got referrals. I worked for the local

paper to round out my income and got my first wedding there. With permission I put up wedding enlargements

at the newspaper office that got me my second and third wedding.. This was before the web really took hold in

the wedding business but I always found personal contact the best marketing tool. In my opinion wedding and

general photography is about 70 per cent marketing with the rest being good business sense and skill.

Competition is more fierce today than when I did it but face to face contact still works IMO. I had a portfolio

that I carried with me to convince new contacts.

[lightrasp1664881197]

<p>June,</p>

<p>I don't contribute much to the forums - many people dislike my candid answers, HOWEVER, I've been in this business for over 60 years and feel there is much to say about this topic.<br>

What she charges is her business, not yours. You have no right to tell her to charge more and she is under no obligation to listen to you or follow your advice. <br>

There are a growing number of portraitists who charge NOTHING for a sitting - they only charge for a finished print and NEVER EVER sell digital files. While this may seem counter intuitive it makes sense: People are LESS willing to pay (twice) for your services. The average sale from this is usually three to 4 times what you will make on charging a sitting fee and a fee for prints.<br>

Your comment does not mention your 'Business Plan' - and your prior thoughts on being able to co-exist with others in a very competitive environment. Before you change HER mind on pricing, be sure you have honest thoughts and expectations of outcome while having high and low priced service providers in the same location. <br /><br />I raised a family ( wife & 3 children ) while being a photographer. While many of my customers were commercial in nature, my prices were far higher than ANY of the myriad shooters in Chicago. <br /><br />Your problem is NOT one of money - it is one of not knowing how to run a business. Take a class at your local community college<br /><br /><br /></p>

<p> </p>

[dcstep]

<p>College degrees in business administration, accounting and minors in economics and finance taught me nothing about running a business. Expecting a community college to teach you anything is dreaming. </p>

<p>You've begun doing the right thing, asking for advice. People have mentioned being certain that your skills are top drawer. The rest comes down to marketing and negotiation. Sometimes a new business model is the answer. The free sitting concept might really stir things up. Start asking around about how it works in other markets.</p>

<p>When you get in front of clients with proofs, are you good at sales. Have you been hiding behind a "package price" because you think you're not good at sales. Many artistic and technical people are VERY uncomfortable selling. Many professional sales people are born, but many are taught their sales skills and hone them with continuing education. Dale Carnegie has generalist sales programs that are good, particularly for the uneasy salesman. If you gave free sittings and put pressure on yourself to make you money by selling in a face-to-face meeting, I guarantee that your potential income would rise, but your ability to sell and close will be up to you. If you don't live up to your potential, then you'll do even worse. I think there's high upside.</p>

[DickArnold]

I also did my own accounting on quick books. I knew up to the minute where I was financially real time.I did not buy any equipment that I did not need to do the job nor that would not pay for itself. I picked

up an exclusive with the local hospital and did all of their PR photos. I did sports for the local paper. That got me

referrals. I got an in with a local inn and did outdoor weddings on the water. I did the local golf tournament. I

grew the business from nothing to a point where I operated almost solely on referrals. This took about six years

to get to that point. This all happened after I had retired from a 41 year profession in aviation. When I turned 70

I got tired and stressed out so I cashed out the business, bought a motor rhome and we toured the country.. Don't

let anybody tell that weddings are not stressful. They are almost worse than penetrating a thunderstorm and they

last longer and require lot's of time post processing. It is like any business one has to really work at it.

[johne37179]

<p>I agree with John Horowitz. You need to think about everything you deliver. Being in the photography business, whether doing weddings or advertising it is a service business. It is not just the final product. You will find that there are many photographers who can deliver the print or image. It is delivering the service of photography and the customer service that makes the difference. How you respond to the customer's needs, wishes and requirements is what matters. If you develop a unique look or style the distinguishes your work from all others customers will seek you out because of the "look." What are your differentiators from you competitor? If you are a professional you likely care more about your customers than the amateur. Do you deliver on time? Do you listen carefully to the customer, art director, whatever. Do you meet the customer's anticipations time after time? If you are going to do this as a business, you are a business first and a photographer second. If you fail as a business it does not matter how good a photographer you are /were.</p>

[nishnishant]

<p>Perhaps, try offering discounted pricing via groupon to gain some market visibility?</p>

[William Michael]

<blockquote>

<p>experienced, high quality photographer . . .<strong> my biggest competitor, who charges $100</strong>. That's her fee for the session and a disc of all the images . . . That is how much I charge for the session fee alone!<br /> <strong>her work is just as good as mine</strong> . . . I have actually spoken to her . . . and <strong>she has told me that hubby makes plenty of money so she just does this for fun . . .</strong>would love to hear some opinions on the matter and <strong>what (if anything) I can do about it.</strong></p>

</blockquote>

<p>> Learn to be a professional salesperson: if you cannot, then employ one.<br>

> Book your clients in a face to face meeting - alternatively have the salesperson do that. <br>

> Differentiate yourself and market your Offer of Sales with different/niche products and services.<br>

> Change your pricing structure so that it is <strong>not</strong> session fee based and <strong>not</strong> similar to your competition.<br>

> Arrange and increase your pricing structure so that for any “session” you book, your gross is guaranteed to be at least six to ten times greater than your existing $100 ‘session fee’ plus your typical after sales to any client.<br>

> Provide extreme customer service, especially not based upon a defined period of time for a “session”.</p>

<p>***</p>

<p>BTW, in 2014 did you take a break from shooting Weddings?<br>

How did that work out?</p>

<p>WW</p>

[DrBen]

<p>If you want to be a photographer whose craft is financially rewarding, you have to develop <strong>YOUR</strong> business and not waste time thinking about your rival's. Her business is none of your business. There is a wide range of pricing in most occupations. I am not a professional photographer but I do work as a self-employed certified translator. Just like anyone with a camera can do photography for pay, anyone can do translations for pay. However as a board-certified translator, there are some areas that are only open to me. I make finding clients in those areas my priority. I charge what I'm worth for what I do. Some lawyers do pro bono (free) work; some charge $100 dollars an hour; some charge $1,000 and hour plus expenses. My job (and yours) is to convince a potential client that you are indeed worth what you charge.</p>

<p>The problem for all of us is developing a successful business model that gets and keeps us where we want to be. If you want to have $100,000 of annual net income, you have to know where you can find the right clients and in the right numbers to make that possible. That will be easier if you find a niche where there will be repeat business. It's fine to have one-time clients but you also need a solid foundation built on repeat business.</p>

<p>Let your rival have her semi-hobby, not-for-profit business. At some point, she may find that she is too successful in terms of how much time she wants to put into photography. Instead of chiding her for undercutting your rates, you might cultivate her friendship and suggest that if she ever has more work than she wants to do, she could refer the overflow to you.</p>

<p>You have to decide what kinds of photography you want to do and can do well and then sell your services to clients who are ready to pay top dollar for that kind of photography and who can provide your desired level of income. If you cannot develop a successful business on that basis, then it's time to think about a career re-orientation.</p>

<p>In an article entitled "20 Qualities that Make a Great Salesperson," Vivane Giang writes:</p>

<p><strong>"1. They don't think in terms of sales but rather in terms of building a business. </strong>Great sales people are building a business, not just trying to make a sale. When you think beyond a sale, you're going to get other people's attention much more easily. They're going to be more interested in what you have to say. You want something that's going to survive beyond one sale."</p>

<p>You can find the entire article here:<br>

http://www.businessinsider.com/20-qualities-that-make-a-great-salesperson-2012-5?op=1</p>

 

[Tim_Lookingbill]

<blockquote>

<p>I am frustrated that clients will continue to compare what we each offer and will begin to undervalue what I am offering.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I'ld say start a business that makes nothing, has very low overhead, doesn't compete by selling the same product/service at the same price and has over one hundred competitors with some being in business since the 1800's...</p>

<p>Sell insurance...</p>

<p>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_insurance_companies</p>

<p>If there's ever been a business that defies the principles of supply and demand it's that one.</p>

[june_daley]

<p>Thank you to those that actually read the question before answering.<br /><br /><strong>David Hoye,</strong> thanks for your input! That's a very good point that you and others have made on selling professionalism. <br /><br /><strong>David Stephens</strong> - thank you also for your in depth response. I don't think there is an ethical obligation, <em>however</em>, if everyone in the industry charged more, we would all earn more (in an ideal world!) Personally I would not want to do the work I do, after all the years gaining experience, equipment and technique, for no profit. I guess not all are concerned with making a living.<br /><br /><br>

<strong>Wouter</strong> (great name by the way) - no, I am not using my real name. Thank you for your concern though!<br>

<strong>Dick</strong>, thanks for your response. Some great ideas there that I will definitely look into. I'm definitely one of those photographers who 'doesn't have time' for better marketing, so I will have to make the time.<br>

<strong>John Horwitz</strong>, I was enjoying your feedback until I got to your last line. So at 16 years old and 4 years in as a full timer, I don't know how to run a business. Cheers for being so helpful.<br /><br /><br /><br>

<strong>David Stephens</strong> - exactly. Thank you for not putting me down just for asking for advice/opinons and telling me I know nothing about running my business! You're spot on however about the in-person sales. I'm terrible at it. I've always hid behind my computer, afraid of criticism etc. Since the start of 2016 I have switched to in-person sales, started offering wedding albums as part of every wedding package (because I was fed up with just handing over a disc), and have stopped shying away from asking for feedback from commercial clients. Every job I do, I now follow up with an email or phone call asking how they are using the images / if it's helping their business etc. I've realised this is just another way to improve and show my clients I care about them. It's difficult at times but I'm slowly getting the hang of it. Thank you for all your great suggestions!<br /><br /><strong>E.J - </strong>Thanks for your feedback. Customer service sure does make all the difference, I'll continue to focus more on this.<br /><br /><strong>William - </strong>Thanks for the feedback. In the end after some very helpful replies from the photonet contributors (thank you!) I decided to continue plowing along. Fortunately I had only two weddings to get through in those first really hard months. A few years on my business has doubled, I've met a wonderful man who is 100% a better match for me and am very happy. Thanks for asking!<br>

<strong>Benoit - </strong>Your first line was so true, thank you. I try not to get too caught up thinking about other photographers but it's not easy to not compare ourselves. <br /><br />The repeat business is definitely something I'm working on, spending more time with potential repeat-clients and ensuring they're happy is paying off so far. Rather than stick to a niche, I'm actually thinking that diversifying might help my business... stopping investing time and energy into portraits where everyone has a camera willing to do the job, and focussing more on taking awesome wedding photos and taking on better commercial gigs to improve my portfolio in that area. Not everyone can organise a brief and get exactly what a client wants with commercial work, where dealing with another business means they expect the best.<br>

Thank you also for the advice on be-friending the hobbyist pro. I hadn't thought of things that way. And for the link to the article! Will definitely have a read. Cheers for all the advice.</p>

<p> </p>

[dcstep]

<p>Thanks for the follow-up.</p>

<p>Dale Carnegie helped me a bunch. It helped move me from a technical accountant that thought that all had to do was do good work and work hard so that I'd automatically advanced, to a person that realized that I "had to" sell to earn my partnership stripes. I'm now in an even more technical business (risk management) and over half my time is spent prospecting for sales and going to meet people and speaking at conferences, etc.</p>

[lightrasp1664881197]

<p>"So at 16 years old and 4 years in as a full timer..."<br /><br />You are a child - and NO, you don't know how to run a business. I wish you the best of luck in whatever line of work you choose but suggest it not be in the customer service sector!</p>

[dcstep]

<p><a href="/photodb/user?user_id=2373975">John Horwitz</a> , said:</p>

<blockquote>

<p>You are a child - and NO, you don't know how to run a business. I wish you the best of luck in whatever line of work you choose but suggest it not be in the customer service sector!</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I tend to agree with John, except that I think that he's way premature in suggesting that you not work in a customer service sector. Yes, you've got lots to learn, but starting early is good. Learn from your mistakes. Hone both your technical photography skills and your sales and customer service skills. Make top grades in school and consider studying photography at a collegiate level.</p>

<p>Credentials will help with getting commercial jobs. I'd stick with portraits for now. Also work on your portfolio. There's little money in Stock these days, but trying to make images that art directors will buy will develop those skills. </p>

<p>Have fun.</p>

[AzDavid]

<p><em><strong>"So at 16 years old and 4 years in as a full timer..."</strong></em><br>

<em><strong>"You are a child - and NO, you don't know how to run a business."</strong></em></p>

<p>Hold on ... am I the only one who assumed the "... 16 years old ..." comment was a typo? When I saw that, I figured the author meant to say something about having 16 years of experience and four years in as a full timer."<br>

If the author really is just 16 and has been "four years in as a full timer" then they've been working full time as a photographer since they were 12?<br>

That makes no sense to me.</p>

 

[june_daley]

<p>Haha, wow. OBVIOUSLY a typo. I have to wonder if John is not just a troll. I mean really... do you even read some of the rubbish you write?<br /><br />26, have built a business and client base on my own from scratch and have successfully managed to support myself and buy a house from my business. I don't recall saying anywhere that 'Oh no - my business is crashing to the ground! What do I do!' or 'help me I don't know how to run a business!'. So I'll just do myself a favour and ignore certain commenters from now on :)</p>

<p>Once again thanks to those who contributed something useful - majority of responders on photo net have always been a real help - you all know who you are as I've thanked you already. I feel much better and have a course of action to be getting on with - cheers guys!</p>

[ellis_vener_photography]

Charge 2-4x more than you are now and stop worrying about attracting bottom feeding customers.

[nishnishant]

<p>Eventually the wedding photography business could be narrowed down to wives of doctors and attorneys who do it not for the money but for fun :-)</p>