First time processing errors?

[oli_sones]

<p>Hi all,<br>

I processed some 120 film for the first time today using a Digitise C41 kit. I've roughly scanned the processed negatives and put them into Photoshop to see how they look. Having inverted the frame they images seem very 'cloudy'. I realise this is a very rough scan and I haven't played around with the curves, but I'm thinking something isn't quite right with the process. I processed at 25c as per the instructions.<br>

The film was shot in a Holga (which I admit isn't a great benchmark in terms of 'clear image'). Does anyone with more experience have any thoughts?<br>

Many thanks in advance!<br>

Here are some examples: <br>

<a href="https://www.dropbox.com/s/iqub6k0bnfh6fh3/Scan1.jpg?dl=0">Example 1</a><br>

<a href="https://www.dropbox.com/s/a2lj90rsm0ydeyj/Scan%202.jpg?dl=0">Example 2</a></p>

<p> </p>

[glen_h]

<p>I would try some black and white before going to C41. I thought C41 was 100F or close to 38C. </p>

<p>But cloudy sounds like not enough bleach-fix. You can do more of that, then follow the remaining steps, and see what happens.</p>

<p>Or it could be light leaks in the Holga. (Again, black and white in the Holga will help with that.)</p>

[oli_sones]

<p>Thanks. The Digibase kit allows to process at 25 degrees so I thought I would be ok. I taped up the Holga so I am not sure it's that. How much should I do of the Bleach and Fix?</p>

[mendel_leisk]

<p>Is this your <em>first</em> film processing? If so, you've really jumped in at the deep end. ;)</p>

<p>What Glen said: black and white is much friendlier. Labs, the few that are left, are set up to do color negative. Black and white through labs was always pushing rope up a hill, a better fit for the home processor. And at ambient temps.</p>

<p>I guess if you've got the bit in your teeth, more power to you, but b/w has always seemed more reward, less grief, for me.</p>

[oli_sones]

<p>I've never been one to not enjoy a challenge! I realise it's somewhat more complicated than B&W but I want to see it through! I'm also going to be working through some B&W as well (with separate equipment). Intrigued if I've not given something the proper time on this initial process...</p>

[craig_shearman1]

<p>You've got multiple variables to deal with here:<br /><br />1) C-41 isn't hard but it isn't for beginners. While B&W is very forgiving of errors, C-41 isn't. Not familiar with Digibase but C-41 is normally done at over 100F. Whatever temp you work at, the temp is critical -- I use a Kodak Process Thermometer that is accurate to within 1/4-degree. The temp has to stay the same through the developing time and all the chemicals, so I do C-41 in a temperature controlled water bath with a heater adjusted to the precise temperature. Mixing also has to be precise, and I do each of the chemicals in a separate mixing container with separate mixing tongs so they don't contaminate each other.<br /><br />2) The Holga is intentionally one of the worst cameras ever made. It intentionally has light leaks, soft images from a crappy lens, an inaccurate shutter, etc. It is a special tool for creating images that look technically bad. It is not intended to produce crisp clear images. Because of all of that, you really can't use film shot with it to judge whether you've done anything right ot wrong.<br /><br />3) You are looking at scans of your negatives. Scans tell you virtually nothing about a negative because you don't know whether the problem is with the negative or the scan. Based on the images you posted, your negs were way, way off, but you still have to judge negs by negs, not by scans.<br /><br />As far as times and temperatures, use what the instructions that came with your Digibase say. If it's like the Tetenal and other C-41 kits, if you follow what it says you will get decent negatives. But you have to follow exactly what it says, with the emphasis on exactly.<br /><br />As others have said, I would recommend that you take a step back and work on black and white for a while. In B&W you still have to follow the directions but you can be off a couple of degrees in temperature or minute in time and still get usable negs.<br /><br />Good luck. It's good to see people still shooting film and getting into developing. I've been doing it 40 years but it's a dying art. Don't be discouraged -- mistakes help make the lessons stick.</p>

[CoryAmmerman]

How did you scan the negatives? You said you manually inverted the colors, but

most scanning software does this automatically if you use the color negative

preset. If you scanned it as a positive or took a picture of the negative, the software

can have trouble with the orange mask. Things tend to come out blue.

 

How do the negatives look? Are they overly dense (very dark) or overly thin (very

light)? If there's good detail in the negatives, then its probably a scanning and post

processing issue.

[glen_h]

<p>C41 negatives have a much lower gamma, and look much different from normal B&W negatives, in addition to the orange mask.<br>

But the unexposed parts should be fairly transparent orange. Compare to some commercially processed negatives. If the perforation part isn't transparent orange, then something went wrong. As above, not enough bleach fix could do it.</p>

[James G. Dainis]

Are you concerned about the way you processed the negatives and think there may be something wrong with them? Or, do the negatives look fine and you are concerned about the way the scan of the perfectly fine negatives came out? Since you are showing the positive images I assume that is the case. If you think there may be a problem with the negatives then you should show the negatives.

[donald_miller5]

I am doing my first attempt today and

also with c41. Everything I read

emphasizes a narrow temperature

range around 100•f. I posted a

question about temperature on classic

manual for I think you will find the

answers very useful for a first timer to

put some things into perspective.

[jamie_robertson2]

<p>C41 should always be done at 38 celsius (100f) and the margin for error is just 0.5 degrees if you want perfect results. Only the temperature and timing of the developer is critical. The bleach and fixer can be +/- 3 degrees and the times are not as critical.</p>

<p>If you are doing it in a standard development tank and don't have access to a Jobo machine or similar, here is the best way to do it:</p>

<ul>

<li>Load your film into your tank as normal</li>

<li>Fill a large bucket with warm water and add hot/cold water until the temperature is approximately 50 celsius (120f). The larger the container, the more stable the temperature... use your bath if you have to.</li>

<li>Put your developing tank and your bottles of chemicals into the bucket and put something heavy on them to keep them under the water.</li>

<li>Let the water in the bucket cool naturally until it reaches 38.5 celsius (just over 100f). By this time all your chemicals and your tank should be at the same temperature.</li>

<li>Take all your bottles and your tank out of the bucket. Pour the developer into the tank, start your timer, close the tank and put the tank straight back into the bucket.</li>

<li>Hold the tank under the water and gently move it around in all directions (agitate) for 3 minutes. Do it gently, not vigorously!</li>

<li>Remove the tank from the bucket and try to pour out the developer so that the last drops leave the tank 3 minutes and 15 seconds after you first poured it in.</li>

<li>Immediately add your next chemical, close the tank and put it back into the bucket. Agitate the tank for the specified time and move on to the next chemical.</li>

<li>Continue this method until you've used all the chemicals in their correct order.</li>

<li>You can now use the water in the bucket to wash your film as it is at an appropriate temperature and is better than using freezing cold water.</li>

<li>Add the stabilising solution, slosh around for a minute then hang up your negs to dry.</li>

</ul>

[donald_miller5]

Mine turned out just like yours. In my case I had everything set up perfect to go, everything mixed, temperatures just right and

choreography planned out. Then (for some silly reason I guess it seemed like a good idea) I opened the wrong part of the tank and

exposed all the film. Then I ran around looking for other film to test and only found some film from 4 years ago and by the time I reloaded

the tank I left the thermometer it my hot water bath and broke it so I tried using a cooking thermometer which was really flying blind.

Apuuuugh. Went through the process for practice will shoot a quick roll tomorrow and try again but at least I got some taste of timing

and temp monitoring. Good luck

 

Also what kind of scanner are you using? Your scanned shot is reminiscent of one roll I scanned. I had been scanning with the film flat on the plate but one particular roll came out horrible until I used a mount for the negatives. Drove me crazy since it wasn't an issue in the past.

You can see examples on my thread "baffled"

 

I used a large cooler for my primary water it kept the temp almost completely constant for a long time.

[oli_sones]

<p>Hi all,<br>

First chance I've had to reply. Wow! Thanks for all the great responses!</p>

<a href="/photodb/user?user_id=2290293">Jamie Robertson</a>: Thank you very much for the details breakdown of the process. I'm going to give your method a go with another roll and see what happens.

 

<a href="/photodb/user?user_id=3940672">Donald Miller</a>: that's very interesting re: your light leaks. I was pretty sure I had managed to keep the roll in the dark but I guess this could be the issue. I used a basic scanner just to see a rough idea of the negative - i'm hoping to get something decent once i get my head around processing.

 

<a href="/photodb/user?user_id=1541404">Cory Ammerman</a> and <a href="/photodb/user?user_id=423911">James Dainis</a>: Here's a link to the negatives (pre-inversion) which I'm not sure would hope much, but might give some insight?

 

<a href="https://www.dropbox.com/s/18lamxpg4tib928/Scan%201.jpg?dl=0">Neg 1</a>

<a href="https://www.dropbox.com/s/a2lj90rsm0ydeyj/Scan%202.jpg?dl=0">Neg 2</a>

 

 

It's interesting the the Digibase manual (<a href="http://www.macodirect.de/download/C41_InstructionManual.pdf">here</a>) that people point to for the kit gives a 25c temp for the processing with longer times - for what everyone has said, this seems woefully too low a temperature for anything to successfully work. I wonder why they put it?

 

Look forward to your continued thoughts. I'm going to keep at it and will now look at B&W also.

 

Thanks,

 

Oli

 

[James G. Dainis]

Negative one looks like the proper density and color to me. It may be a bit more brownish than orange but that may just be the way the image of the negative was taken. I would say that your film developed okay. Compare that negative to other negatives you have taken in the past that you know have given good prints.to see if there is much difference.

[craig_shearman1]

<p>Take a look at my post on Classic Manual Cameras from last night (not really the right forum, but I was building on what was already there about development time) to see how I handle temperature control. You can make do with bathtubs and buckets but it's much easier if you have the right tools. And the right tools aren't that hard to get now that darkroom equipment is being pretty much given away.</p>

[donald_miller5]

<p>THANK YOU James. Your rational is so much easier than the instructions with the inversion every 30 seconds with eyes glued to a timer. I also believe it gives a more consistent mix and process. I did it this morning. I used the ice chest again, took the temperature once and n ever looked back until after I cleaned. Started with a temperature of 103.6*F and 2 hours lated when finished it was 101*F. Thats a variation of 1.4*C of the norm and the time was skewed to the period where temperature is less critical. But the proof is in the pudding. Here are some samples and they are rough. I know a trained can find defects but I say pretty d___ good for technically first try.</p>

<p>Ektar 100, Start camera (Russian) , F4 to F8, Helios-44, 2/58</p><div></div>

[donald_miller5]

<p>Happy with color <br>

Jim one more question if I may. Do the tanks have to be completely full since they are constantly agitated. it takes forever to fill tank with developer and fixer?</p><div></div>

[donald_miller5]

<p>I think something went wrong on this one</p><div></div>

[jamie_robertson2]

<blockquote>

<p>Jim one more question if I may. Do the tanks have to be completely full since they are constantly agitated. it takes forever to fill tank with developer and fixer?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>The tank does not have to be full but there is a minimum required amount per roll. To keep things simple, work out how much fluid is needed to cover the film when the tank is standing on its base. Usually this quantity is stamped on the base of the tank. Using more chemical than necessary won't harm the film but it will take longer to fill and empty the tank.</p>

<p>From your first two scans it looks as though you're doing great. There is just as much skill in scanning as there is in developing. I'm fairly certain that you'll get perfect scans from those negatives with practice.</p>

<p>This guy on Youtube does a good walkthrough of how to develop C41 at home using simple equipment, it's definitely worth watching if you're a beginner: <a href="https://youtu.be/PKf_lNTvPw8">https://youtu.be/PKf_lNTvPw8</a></p>

[jamie_robertson2]

<p>If your last scan was from the same roll as the previous two scans then it's likely to be caused in camera (i.e. wrong exposure) rather than during development. </p>

[donald_miller5]

While we are at it let me kick the dead horse a couple of more times. BOTTLES.

I will probably use up chemicals before this becomes an issue. Glass bottles I think are overpriced on line. I found olive

bottles which are 1 quart with thin long necks (yes , I can clean all the residue out) and very dark. Problem is they are

marked f1 on the bottom and what little I found on them suggests they may have a high sulfur content. Can this be an

issue?

 

The plastic bottles I use now is PETE (PET) which has an excellent profile re oxygen permeation. Pressurized bottles on store

shelves have long expiriration dates so we know they retain gas but CO2 is a larger moiety then oxygen. In the Pharmacy

98% of liquid form meds come in PET bottles andhave expiration date of a couple of years.

 

A lot of people on photo.net have an intuitive bias towards glass which I share but the liquid concentrates come shipped in

plastic. I am shifting my thinking to plastic bottles are perfectly suitable for long term storage especially since being abla to

squeeze air space out more than compensates for oxygen seepage even though you can add glass beads or buttons into

glass.

 

Two other quick things, is blix susceptible to oxidation?

Just out of scientific curiosity what is the comparability of blix and chlorine bleach? I could not find a single thing on this.

[glen_h]

<p>Blix is complicated, but in general you want to oxidize it. </p>

<p>Like chlorine, the bleach function is an oxidation reaction, converting Ag to Ag+, such that the fixer can remove it. (It might be that it gets Br- from solution, too.) </p>