First Film Camera - Agfa Record II 6by9 or Voigtlander Bessa L

[azaan_izzam]

<p>Dear All,<br>

I am in the market for a film camera and confused between the above 2, both of them going for Euro 75.00 (Student Budget) <br /><br />The Agfa is MF and in good condition though I am yet to receive answers on specifics from the seller since its an aged camera. <br /><br />The next is the Bessa L which as per the seller is in excellent condition but this is only the camera body at Euro 75 and I will need to invest in glass ( looking at the Industar 61, 50mm f/2.8) and a viewfinder that together will cost me as much as the camera itself with shipping.<br /><br />I am interested in taking mostly landscape photography and at times a bit of street & Macro. I am buying without testing since its an online shop in Nederlands.<br /><br />Your advice(s) will be immensely appreciated! <br /><br />Thanks,<br />Azaan</p>

[lex_jenkins]

The Bessa L has no rangefinder for accurate

focusing and the non-focusing accessory

viewfinders are intended for wide angle lenses.

That type of camera is better suited to use with

35mm and wider lenses, stopped down for more

depth of field and zone focused.

 

With a very

wide lens, 20mm or wider, even the viewfinder

isn't absolutely necessary. With practice you can

estimate framing just by lifting the camera to

just below eye level. Some cropping and leveling will be needed later.

 

For the same money or less you can probably find

a good used 35mm film SLR, with a 50mm lens.

[azaan_izzam]

<p>Thanks Lex, I already know most of what you have said, but<br>

1.I can't use E-bay yet due to my credit card being pre-paid, which Paypal doesn't recognize.<br>

2. I am not looking at SLRs because I already have a DSLR.<br>

3. The other cameras generally come at around this level of pricing if not 20 euros lesser at most.<br>

Regards,</p>

<p> </p>

[JDMvW]

<p>There are a huge number of small, 35mm, rangefinder and viewfinder cameras. Some of them have built in meters. Some of those meters still work, if you can find batteries for them.<br>

Rollei 35 is superb, but most of them will be outside your price range.<br>

The various models of Canonet will have meters, but will work without a battery. I'd only avoid the Canonet 28 which is too automatic and harder to use without a functioning meter. The Canonet QL 17 is often sold in your price, but can go higher.</p>

<p>Yashica made a bunch of these.</p>

<p>I've been a big fan myself of many RICOH cameras, especially the 500, 500G and the Hi-Color. Some of these are only viewfinder, but you quickly learn to estimate distance. Color negative film will allow you to stop down for focus and have wide latitude for exposure.</p>

<p> </p>

[azaan_izzam]

<p>I cannot use E-bay like I mentioned earlier but the Rollei 35 & the Canonet QL 17 both are outside my price range. I cannot find the Yashica either but I shall try other camera stores? <br>

Do you think I should go for a Medium format or 35mm?<br /><br />The Velvia 50 costs twice as much for Medium Format... and conversion cost for a 36 roll is 12 Euro while for one single negative of MF is 4.5 Euros! That is a lot of money.... <br /><br />Looks like what I will be saving by purchasing the Agfa, I will eat them up in PP costs! </p>

[JDMvW]

<p>Even without eBay, if you can buy on-line there are probably shops in Nederland or elsewhere in the Euro zone. If you look at actual sold prices, some of the Canonets go for under your price.<br>

The Ricohs can be very inexpensive. The Hi-Color (motor drive too) was given to me by my local camera store, and the 500G was well under your top price. But there are likely to be other makers' cameras available locally. Other Agfa models for example, though they are not my personal favorites.</p>

[johncox]

<p>I have a Bessa R2 and love the thing, but of the two options I would recommend the Agfa. If you can get onto eBay some how look at a Canon P. It's a rangefinder in Leica screw mount with a viewfinder and parallax focusing. Everything you could wan't other than a light meter. There a few up there in your budget right now (minus lens).<br>

Keep in mind that you won't have to scan entire rolls with the Agfa if you use slide film. because of the large size you can do proofing just by looking at the positive.</p>

[Jochen_S]

<p>I wouldn't go for that Bessa, although I have a 15mm Heliar that would match it quite well. IMHO going LTM for <em>zone focusing</em> a 50mm with need for an accessory finder is insane. The Bessa as a camera body is probably more reliable than the FEDs & Zorkis Industars were made for, but still: I grabbed the latter for 17 to 40 Euro on German flea markets (with lens) and I can assure you: its worth having something like (nobody knows how far off they are for portraits) rangefinder with a 50mm lens. - Have you looked at the DOF for a 5omm at f5.6 or less @ 1.5m or even 1m? will you guess <em>that</em> precisely? - My best catch in your price range was a used looking Kodak Retina II in a local store. It became my "pocket anytime" film camera and seems to deliver acceptable* results. *= I am more comfortable to nail a f2 portrait with Leica M, but thats a different price range and stopped down the Kodak performs well enough.<br>

There should be tons of decent west-European cameras still around. Most repair shops seem to chicken out when it comes to Russian RFs.<br>

Agfas: I googled pictures of the Record. I have used 6x6s myself. Is yours with a uncoupled rangemeter? Like http://static.photo.net/attachments/bboard/00F/00FjpM-28952684.jpg (the tiny wheel between shutter release & cold shoe on top of it) - If so: Probably worth going for it. - Without I'd back off. - I had an Isolette of that kind, did a roll or 3 & ditched it on my girlfriend. I can't tell about the results but am pretty convinced that Agfas are nice light cameras doing a good job in landscape photography, pretty ideal for hiking & the like or for group shots, with home processed BW. - I used a Super Isolette most of the time and that 75mm Solinar is definitely equal to my Mamiyas. - Maybe read: http://www.photo.net/classic-cameras-forum/00Aide about the lenses. - I don't do any pixel peeping equivalent with my film gear. <br>

As told before: I believe MF & LF are delightful & rewarding for BW in your own darkroom. If it has to be color, I 'd go (or stay) digital or stick to affordable 35mm. <br />I don't like the hybrid workflows. They combine the worst of both sides. If you order a CD along with your processing you get rather low resolution scans. If you want the heck scanned out of your negs you have to bleed. Either about 50 Euro(?) per drum scan or get a home scanner which will deliver less stellar quality - lets say you loose one format step on an Epson? - and still consume a lot of time. As I am recalling a Pentax MF DSLR seems cheaper than a Hasselblad scanner...<br>

If I was still shooting 35mm and wanted to share a result online once in a blue moon, I'd stick to the dirtcheap (15 Euro!) supermarket film "scanners", which grab images from a tiny built in 5MP video camera. - All these threads here about DSLRing or MILCing film have a reason... For color prints there seems to be no cost conscious way around having a lab do them on photographic paper. At least I'd have to pay more for just the RA4 paper than lab prints.<br>

IMHO the days where a hybrid workflow was really justifyable for an amateur are over. A used 250 Euro digital camera takes nice A3 mass print / 4-5K screen pictures. <br>

Sure, film <em>can be</em> superior. But: The price is high and it makes little sense to use it for less than exhibiton prints.<br>

I don't feel like a big fan of SLRs, but I guess to just dabble with film once they are the less expensive choice? (And that fact is pretty absurd! - At least considering prices and prestige back in the 80s.) Window shopping I see unspectacular SLRs for 19 - 49 Euro all the time. Once you are done with them you could still use the lens(es) on a MILC 150 Euro + 20 for an adapter. <br>

BTW: my favorite Voigtländer with 50mm would be the Vito II. - Not the greatest ergonomics but it looks cute and is quite compact unlike later rigid versions.</p>

[Wouter Willemse]

<p>Azaan, if the goal is to shoot film, while at a budget, I would not dismiss SLRs, even if you have a DSLR. The main difference is obviously that the SLRs do shoot film, and if that is what you want, then they are your best bet on a budget.<br>

Decent medium format gear in a good shape is usually going to cost more. It's sure relatively cheap nowadays, but at the budget you quote, it's going to be difficult to find something good. Plus, indeed, film itself is costly, and either scanning or having prints made with medium format will be more costly too.<br>

Decent rangefinders do cost more than your budget, and the lenses as well; the only option there could be the Russian rangefinders as said above. The small|(er) viewfinder cameras probably do fit the budget, but it takes some getting used to not seeing whether you focussed right or not, certainly if you're used to a camera with a viewfinder that shows that.<br>

Overall, second hand prices in Europe do seem to be a fair notch above the American market - the prices I often see quoted here in the forums for some cameras - I can't find them at those prices here. For the Netherlands (if you are living there), the best bet is www.marktplaats.nl ; but last times I checked it, I didn't find real bargains. Prices for good/interesting film cameras aren't superbargains anymore; but the mass volume SLRs can still be found for very little money, with good lenses too. Leaves you more money for film :-)</p>

[warren_williams]

<p>Both the L and the Agfa could be interesting cameras to use. Neither has a rangefinder which shouldn't present much of a problem for landscapes and street work if you use fast film and small apertures for max depth of field. The L has a good through the lens meter visible when looking through an auxiliary viewfinder a nice feature making it the quicker of the two but the 35mm Jupiter may not fit on the body (big rear lens element) restricting you to 50mm affordable lens. The Agfa is a whole different beast - larger, slower and only 8 photos per shot so more expensive to run. This may be good forcing you to be more contemplative per shot. A nice alternative is the Zeiss Nettar which gives you 12 square images.<br>

As a student , you might be looking for an alternate experience to a digital SLR and I would think the Nettar or the Agfa would be "more different". Another advantage is that you could mess with chemical printing and the 120 film could even yield decent contact prints.</p>

<p>Good luck</p>

[azaan_izzam]

<p>I am overwhelmed by your responses. Thank you. I am therefore not interested in the Bessa L anymore. Only considering the Agfa among the 2.<br>

I am thinking if doubling my budget is worth it. <br>

I also found a deal here for Euro 200 - Zenza Bronica ETRC + 2.8 / 75mm lens 6x45 + metered prism finder that I am planning to bargain for a little less<br>

Do you think this is a better deal? <br /><br />Thanks again,<br>

Azaan</p>

 

[Brad Cloven]

<p>Here are some shots with the Agfa Billy Record II on Velvia 50. The camera was fully reconditioned by Jurgen Kreckel of Cert06. The corners and edges are not sharp, but otherwise it handles well.<br>

<img src="http://d6d2h4gfvy8t8.cloudfront.net/9229551-md.jpg" alt="" width="679" height="405" /></p>

<p>Bigger and more here:<br>

http://d6d2h4gfvy8t8.cloudfront.net/9229551-lg.jpg</p>

<p>http://d6d2h4gfvy8t8.cloudfront.net/9229652-lg.jpg</p>

<p>http://d6d2h4gfvy8t8.cloudfront.net/9229594-lg.jpg</p>

[Jochen_S]

<p>The Zenza Bronica might make sense. 6x4.5 was the budged quality format. Folks argued: I get 16 shots per roll and 6x6 shooters 12 and they'll end cropping theirs or paying more for a bearable proof to glue into their album. (Labs charge usually for the short side of a picture so you paid the same for a 13x13 as for a 13x18 print although the 13x 13 was as modest as a 10x15...)<br /> - Generic 6x6 counter argument (just FTR): "I'm freaking tall & the ladies look better shot from their eye level, so I love my WLF / chimney finder. It makes the camera easier to hold and lets me get away with a lighter & cheaper tripod, made for the average midged, too. Film is cheap + I have my own darkroom and Mamiyas & Linhofs with their rotating backs are too heavy & expensive for my taste." <br>

I don't know that camera brand personally. - Research it. - Known flaws? - Lens availability & pricing? - Electric shutter? (I'd prefer mechanical one for repairability in the long run) <br>

Things to consider: Its a MF SLR. Some folks complain about the weight, most likely heavier than your Nikon. I liked my Agfa folder for compact size, used to wear it under my jackets and believe they carried such cameras into the World Wars like their cellphones into current conflicts.<br>

Anyhow: a modest MF rig shouldn't break a young man's spine!<br>

If you don't have (a smartphone with app to serve as) an exposure meter, the metered prism is great to have. <br>

Bottom line: 6x4.5cm is a comparably sane format choice, great compromise between MF & 35mm too and should be good for 12MP scans. (<-pessimistic, no intention to belittle that format!)</p>

[aplumpton]

<p>Hello Azaan,</p>

<p>Finding a good rangefinder camera of fairly recent times (after 1980 is "recent") will be difficult at your present budget. The cost of processing film (if you don't do that yourself) is high with medium format (6x9 especially), so you may be better off with a rugged and good quality 35mm camera, probably an SLR.</p>

<p>I have used the Yashica FX Super 2000 for many years and although it is not Nikon quality in ruggedness it has lasted well (th ML line of lenses are quite good, even excellent in some cases, like the 28mm, 21mm). Another camera that has served students very well is the Pentax K1000, a basic manual focus SLR a bit like the Yashica. My advice to you is to go to a good used camera store in Rotterdam or Amsterdam or elsewhere in Holland where you can actually see, inspect and try the camera and maybe have the opportunity to put a roll through it to develop and test it (at various shutter speeds, fstops) before buying. They sell for upwards of 30 or 40 Euros equivalent (more if the condition is excellent) here in Canada.</p>

<p>If you enjoy film photography you can step up to more expensive used cameras later on.</p>

 

[azaan_izzam]

<p>Ok, so the Bronica is already sold, just that the Seller forgot to remove it from his website. <br>

So, I am now with the Agfa Record II. <br>

Also, I have found a 'fully tested' Zorki 4 35mm with Industar 50/2.8 for about 85 Euros with shipping charges.<br>

I am just reading about the Zorki, but your inputs would be much appreciated. <br>

Thanks again,<br>

Azaan</p>

[Jochen_S]

<p>FED2 fan here. The wider diopter range fits my eye without contact lens.<br>

Zorki 4K is newer, offers more shutter speeds but the red ones are likely to fade / become invisible also the shutter is nasty to set (ergonomically, its lift twist drop and some steps are very small).<br>

85 Euro look "high". - I paid 40 for mine with f2 lens.<br>

Strap lugs? / Neverready case? - I'd hate to have such a camera without anything like that.<br>

Common Soviet LTM camera issue: RF exactness (on close subjects). - Maybe less prominent with Contax clones "Kiev". - I never tried those. Image quality isn't necessarily up to basic SLRs'. Build quality of my Industar f2.8 appears lower than Jupiter 8's - but just 1 sample at hand, not enough for a global statement; anyhow the lens feels a bit rattly / wobbly; other parts shake a bit in relation to the lens mount. </p>

[azaan_izzam]

<p>Hmmm.. thanks Jochen. Your experience is immense, I must say.<br>

You have been of great help from start on. <br>

There is a Bronica ETRC and a Mamiya 645 both used and with lens and 120 film back, going for 200 Euros. <br>

I am really wondering if its worth the investment over the Agfa Record II. I have decided to completely stick to landscapes, city scapes etc.<br>

Many thanks in advance,<br>

Azaan</p>

[azaan_izzam]

<p>The Mamiya m645 apparently is used heavily and not fully tested and Agfa 6by9 is sold.<br>

So comes back to Bronica ETRC with prism VF and 75 f/2.8 lens at Euro 200.00<br>

Another camera that I find this forum to love is a Minolta Auto cord going for Euro 150.00<br>

Since, niether of these are rangefinders, I wish to discontinue the discussion in this forum and move it to Medium format.<br>

Once again thanks all for your help and suggestions.<br>

Best regards,<br>

Azaan</p>