Andrew Garrard Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 <p><strong>Moderator note: </p> <p>This thread was moved from the Nikon Forum to allow a wider range of general commentary and advice for Andrew.</strong> </p> <p></p> <p>***</p> <p></p> <p>Hi all. Strategically, I have agreed to shoot a friend's wedding (as a guest, having explained that I'm not a professional and made really sure they know what they're getting) and have timed it to happen just after trading in my D800 and D700 for a D810. This means I have no backup Nikon, unless you count an F5 or a mount adaptor on a GF2. I'd been deliberately keeping the D700 in case I needed a backup, but since I've barely used it since I got the D800e, I figured it could go.<br /> <br /> This leaves me with a small dilemma. I <i>do</i> want a back-up camera for the wedding, because that's the biggest bit of advice most people have for wedding shooters. So I need to hire something for the day. I <i>could</i>, obviously, hire another D810 (or a D800 variant), but if I'm hiring something, it seems sensible to have a complement to my camera rather than an exact duplicate.<br /> <br /> My options, ignoring the D8x0 choices, are:</p> <dl> <dt>D4 or D4s</dt> <dd>Low light capability, high speed shooting for dancing, handling not dissimilar to the D8x0 (crossed with the F5). But, I have only CF cards and a couple of SDs, and hire places don't seem to like lending out XQD cards and readers. So I'd lose a little speed but, importantly, lose any card backup in the camera.</dd> <dt>D3s</dt> <dd>Low light capability and high speed. Handling D700 style, which is annoying to switch to from the D810. I do have CF cards. Low ISO dynamic range and absolute resolution are uncompetitive if my D810 fails while I've got decent light available. Very hard to find for hire, it appears.</dd> <dt>D3</dt> <dd>Like the D3s, but a stop worse, which loses the low-light advantage over the D810.</dd> <dt>D750</dt> <dd>Slightly better low light handling and AF (in low light - I'll take the additional spread of the D810 otherwise) than the D8x0 models, and marginally faster. Does have somewhat different handling, and I don't have many fast SD cards. Lightest option here, which is good for a back-up, but negligible compared to my own weight.</dd> <dt>Df</dt> <dd>Low light competitive with the D4, if I can get it to focus in low light. SD like the D750, but without a second card slot for backup. Also not very fast, and not my first choice of user interface.</dd> </dl> <p>If I had arbitrary money I'd get the D4s and buy an XQD + reader. Lacking a spare £180, I suspect I'm either looking at using a D4/D4s with one slot and risking a failure, or I'm going to be making a trade-off.<br /> <br /> What would you do? (No "buy a D40" please.)</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wouter Willemse Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 <p>Personally, I'd get a second D810 for the simple reason that you want something you can pick up and use blindfolded. If anything, the camera must completely not get in your way all day in any way, and a camera you don't know as well (even if the UI changes are small) can get in your way.<br> (<em>Not that I have vast experience with weddings, but multiple friends managed to talk me into doing it - and I know how much those days I had to rely on tried-and-tested routines as focussing on getting the right moments and pleasant compositions was work enough already</em>)</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
q.g._de_bakker Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 I agree with Wouter: a second D810 would appear to be the best back up for a D810. No need to get confused by different cameras with their different capabilities, different settings, different control lay outs. Using the same camera means you will not even notice you will be using the back up, apart from the fact that it is working while the main camera isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
owen_omeara Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 <p>I have been in tour position and I agree with Wouter 100%. If you have to make a change during something important as a wedding it should be seamless. Muscle memory in your hands is a real phenomenon and you don't want to miss something important.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matters410 Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 <p>+1 for D810 in your situation</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psul_aul Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 <p>I'll add another vote for a D810. I don't think you gain much with any of the bodies mentioned beyond what the D810 can already do. <br> I shot an event once back in the film days with two different bodies and flashes. Lucky for me, I knew them both inside and out, but I still made a few mistakes. It will make your life easier to have an identical camera.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_bradtke Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 <p>Get the same camera. it is not like you are going to be wanting to fumble around with a camera with different control layouts</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User_6502147 Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 <p>Having another 810 would be ideal.. you could consider renting D610, but you'd have to put the camera through paces to make sure it delivers...as you wish.</p> <p>Les</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob_bill Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 <p>Ditto. I shoot with a FF and crop. 70-200 on crop. 24-70 or 85 or 105 on ff. Or fish or 50. I force myself to use the crop daily so I can effortlessly function between the 2 but having the choice, I would have identical bodies as far as controls but do like the extra reach of the crop. You have that with the 800 series so can just kick down to crop mode I guess. You have a plethera of pixels. You may have just made up my mind between a d750 and 810.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Smith Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 <p>Rent a 2nd D810: don't muck around, particularly if it is a new-to-you camera.</p> Robin Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Garrard Posted February 5, 2015 Author Share Posted February 5, 2015 <p>Wow. That's pretty definitive - I've rarely seen that much agreement on this forum! I'd vaguely wondered about the D4s mostly in case the frame rate (for dancing) and low-light performance (and it does overtake the D810 at a relatively-modest ISO 800) - but I'll take the advice that body switching is going to be a bigger risk than having the wrong body. I have to remember that the D810 is a little less stately than the D800e that I'm used to, too, so the gap to the big body isn't as large.<br /> <br /> Thank you, all. That might also save me from vaguely wondering about hiring an A7s (and some lenses) - though the idea of hiring something 4K capable does appeal, even if I'm not intending much videography. The GH4 - or an FZ1000, or an NX1 if I can get my employers to lend me one - sounds like the safer option there anyway. But messing up the video as well as the photography is a separate topic.<br /> <br /> Bob: Glad I helped? :-) I never used crop mode on my D700, but used it almost as soon as I had my D800e, when I knew I didn't have a long-enough lens with me and the remaining pixels would have been wasted. It doesn't quite stop me vaguely eying a D3300 just for pixel density, but I've abstained so far, and 16MP isn't bad.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_s. Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 <p>A wedding is not the time to be fiddling with unfamiliar equipment. Rent a D810 and nothing else. Set all the menu setting identical to your own. Sync the time and date before shooting.</p> <p>The complementary use doesn't come from having different cameras, it comes from having different lenses on your identical camera bodies. For instance a wide angle on one, a telephoto on the other. A mid range zoom on one and a large aperture prime on the other. Shooting flash pictures on one, shooting ambient light on the other. The combinations are many. If and when you have a problem you just grab the other camera and swap lenses.</p> <p>I'd also recommend using the two memory slots on both cameras. Preferably putting the same images on both cards at the same time.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Garrard Posted February 5, 2015 Author Share Posted February 5, 2015 <p>Thanks, Pete. I typically write raw to CF and JPEG to SD (mostly because the CF card is a little faster, and the D800e's feature of locking up until the photo is written if you're in live view trained me to split the output), but I <i>was</i> planning backup mode for the wedding. I'm tempted to stick an Eye-Fi card in there, so I can dump straight to external storage, too - but that may be over-complicating things.<br /> <br /> If I wasn't already terrified enough of doing the wedding, you've all re-raised my blood pressure. Oh well, I <i>did</i> warn my friends...</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_wilson1 Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Yes, be sure to run the double slots. You also need two lenses that go to wide, in case one goes down. Good flash and a topper like the Gary Fong folding hood. Leave the top open for bounce and just let the fill come from the cone. Happy trails Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Garrard Posted February 5, 2015 Author Share Posted February 5, 2015 <p>Dave: Thanks. I plan to hire a 24-70, which I currently don't have. I already have a 14-24 and 70-200, and I'll bring the 85 f/1.8, 200 f/2 and my 90 and 150mm macros for detail. I have redundant 50mms (most recently the new Sigma) and the Sigma 35mm, and probably a couple of slightly iffy tilt/shifts (35mm and 65mm). Oh, and an 8mm fish-eye, which I've used at weddings before. I wasn't planning on bringing my 500mm. :-) (I <i>will</i> check the venue out in case I need my 300mm for the ring exchange, though.)<br /> <br /> I have a cheap 28-80 (3.3-5.6G) that I rarely use - I should really check how badly it holds up, although I'm not blown away by the 24-70 for the price either. Do you think that's enough redundancy at the wide end? For flashes, I have a triplet of SB600s that I normally run off-camera, and a couple of cheap backups. I've got a Rogue Flashbender (which I keep wanting to call "Michael") and, at a push, an unwieldy slip-on soft box. But I'll have reflectors with me (in vague optimism about the British weather), and some of them work as diffusers, so I'd hope I can cope so long as my wife doesn't mind wrangling.<br /> <br /> My friends deliberately didn't want a pro photographer and mostly expect candids. I may be over-engineering this, but I'd rather also not screw it up for them... so thanks for all the input. I'm really never doing this commercially.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Garrard Posted February 5, 2015 Author Share Posted February 5, 2015 <p>Apparently this has just been bumped from the Nikon forum to Weddings - which, since I think my body-specific question has been answered, is fine by me; apologies to the moderators for the topic shift. So any other advice - additional wide-angles or not - is much appreciated. (Yes, I know, "don't shoot weddings until you've been a second shooter with someone experienced" - I've explained to the happy couple what they're in for and done an engagement shoot with them to try to put them off, and they still seem to want me to do it rather than taking my advice and hiring a pro.) I've been browsing this forum and done a reasonable amount of background reading, enough to scare me, so please don't feel the need to yell "NOOOO" too loudly.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dieter Schaefer Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 <p>Quite unanimous - and my suggestion is also to get a second D810. You are confusing the issue a bit - to me a backup is a camera I have in the bag ready to go in case my own camera fails. But what you are describing - for certain when thinking about another model - is a second camera to be used alongside your own - to me that's a totally different scenario. So indeed, a backup is best a duplicate and not a complement.</p> <p>Strictly speaking, logic would demand that if you are shooting with a second camera alongside your own then the assumption is implied that either is not sufficient to complete the full wedding shoot and that you'd better have a third one in the bag in case one of the two you are using fails. And if you were using two different bodies - then you would need to have a backup for each!</p> <p>I was also thrown by you first stating that you shoot as a guest - when later it appears that you are the only photographer. When shooting as a guest - which is all I have done at a wedding - I would not bother with a backup - I simply would pack it in if my equipment failed. Obviously, that would not be an option, if I was the only photographer (paid or not). </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User_6502147 Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 <p>Andrew, making it simple (one type body) makes it more reliable in the long run....I mean, even if you never need to use the second camera. The ordeal is pretty chaotic to begin with....and some people just add more drama than it's needed. The more you have the situation at hand (large % is having everything ready), the less headaches you'll have during the whole thing....and as a result more relaxing. </p> <p>If you think about it, you can actually enjoy it...and making the best of it. Hopefully you'll have someone who will coordinate the crowd....making easier for you to accomplish this. Good luck. Oh, and post some shots here after you are done.</p> <p>Les</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellis_vener_photography Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 D4s and make it your prime camera for the wedding. It is the more suitable tool for this job. There is a minimal difference I control layout and function. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Garrard Posted February 6, 2015 Author Share Posted February 6, 2015 <p>Dieter: Apologies for the confusing description. I'm a guest in that I'm a friend who would have been invited anyway. As a guest, I normally shoot a few hundred shots of candids at weddings "for fun", and to complement the main photographer (whom I stay well out of the way of). This time, my friends were insistent that they didn't want a pro, and asked if I'd be considered the main photographer - they "don't want formal shots" (although I'll press them on whether they really mean <i>no</i> formal shots when I see them next weekend). I'm sure other guests will have cameras, but if I'm the primary, I want to be as reliable as possible, as a gift to them. They know my style from the photos I take at tiddlywinks tournaments, since they're both players (<a href="http://www.zen60163.zen.co.uk/Private/Winks/2015ClubDinner/Sarah.jpg">this</a> is the bride).<br /> <br /> I'm not expecting the D810 to fail, but I'm not prepared to attend with no backup at all. (As a "normal" guest, of course, I've risked it - except one time when I took the F5 just in case and left it in the car.) If I'm carrying a second camera anyway, my original thought was that I may as well bring something that supplemented what I was carrying, particularly for darker conditions and faster action such as some of the more enthusiastic dancing, which is where the D4s came in. Either the D810 or the D4s would suffice as a single camera, but not as effectively as both. <i>But</i> I buy the argument that the risk of me having handling problems switching bodies is too great, and that I'm better off having the flexibility of two lenses mounted on the same bodies.<br /> <br /> Leszek: thank you. Fortunately these people are very relaxed, and I'll be stressed enough for both of them. I'll do my best with the preparation - my wife will be assisting. I'll certainly share, for future advice!<br /> <br /> Ellis: Good to have contrasting advice. :-) For darker conditions, the D4s is better - and the way I normally shoot weddings (because I think it's rude to fire of the flash a lot as a guest) it might be the obvious camera. On the other hand, I've absolutely used the full low-ISO dynamic range of my D800e at previous weddings to handle harsh lighting. I'd probably rather have the resolution than not, too. I think I'll bow to the masses, fun though shooting with a D4s would be (I've handled them in shops), but it's good to know that my thinking didn't sound entirely mad to someone!<br /> <br /> Thank you all.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob_bill Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 <p>I too don't look at a second body as a "backup" but instead as a second camera over my shoulder setup for instant change for different shots than the main camera around my neck. It helps not missing once in a lifetime shots that we are there to capture. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Michael Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 <p>Andrew,</p> <p>My general advice is ‘keep it simple’. Actually, doing exactly that for most people who are<em> ‘photographers’</em>, can be quite a challenging task.<br /> In my direct working experience; also noting conversations on internet Wedding Forums and in person at (amateur) Photography Associations - there are two main areas that seem lead to the problems and difficulties:</p> <p>1. The Photographer being focused way too much on gear and technical stuff and not on being ready to get the shot (photographer has wrong major emphasis – emphasis is on what the photographer is doing and not what people are doing)<br /> 2. The Photographer not being on the right place at the right time to get the shot (lack of anticipation of the flow of the occasion and the people in it – again links to point one above, not enough awareness of what is happening and what will happen next).</p> <p>***</p> <p>So to advice: you’ve thought through and suggested to them to get an experienced pro and you’ve asked that we not suggest to you “don’t do it” – so that’s that covered. <br /> I suggest-</p> <p><strong>GEAR:</strong><br /> > essentially use one camera; a camera that you know inside out and back to front such that it will be an extension of your hand and so you can set it up the Camera Mode and the Metering Mode so it works like an extension of your brain.<br /> > essentially use one lens – 24 to 70/2.8 on your 135 Format Nikon is a good idea and that would be my suggestion<br /> > have a Flash attached to your camera with batteries charged all the time. That doesn’t mean the Flash is turned on an working all the time but it means that it is always ready to work. – if you don’t know how to do reasonable ‘Flash as Fill’ outdoors then learn in the time that you have; additionally if you don’t know how to use a simple modifier for Flash as Key or Flash as Fill indoors, then learn in the time that you have. If you don’t have time to learn, then use the camera in Program Mode and the Flash in Full Auto Mode if you see a development worth capturing and you need to get the shot.<br /> (Notice I mention: <em>“if you see a development worth capturing”</em> - that means something is happening (or better you anticipate something is about to happen)<br /> <br /> <strong>OUTLINE of PROCEDURE:</strong><br /> A Wedding, itself does not move at Wesley Hall / Jeff Thompson /Harold Larwood speed: what does happen however, like in Tiddlywinks, little spats of developments happen all the time and often very quickly: – the Page Boy has the quizzical look as he balances the ring and hitches his strides; the Bridesmaid has a tear; the Bride’s Mum hugs her Husband . . . so keep one eye on the B&G and the other open for opportunities to capture these ‘developments’.</p> <p>If you can execute this procedure well, on your virgin run, then I think that you will have very little time to: swap to Telephoto Zoom Lenses; play with Macro Lenses; and plonk on a Fast Prime . . . etc.</p> <p>If you do have the time to use those other lenses, then do it quickly and do it on your second camera is my best advice – do NOT let your MAIN WORKING CAMERA out of your hands.</p> <p>Have a read of this thread and note that <em>“Carl Smith”</em> is an exceptionally experienced, successful and well published Professional Photographer: <br /> <a href="/wedding-photography-forum/00bsPR">http://www.photo.net/wedding-photography-forum/00bsPR</a></p> <p>WW</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Garrard Posted February 7, 2015 Author Share Posted February 7, 2015 <p>William: Very good food for thought. Thank you!</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
de_isaacs Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 <p>+1 to the sentiment:<br> +1 to the sentiment: "Rent a 2nd D810: don't muck around, particularly if it is a new-to-you camera" - concentrate on the Bride & groom - not your camera features. Also - prepare (and review with the Bride & Groom) a shot-list for the wedding (see other areas of this forum for details)</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Garrard Posted February 9, 2015 Author Share Posted February 9, 2015 <p>Thanks, Derek. In general, I know this - it just didn't stop me asking the question! And yes, I'm going to be having a long chat with the happy couple this weekend. Hopefully while they're still sober...</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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