What is a Black and White Film image?

[Member69643]

<p>In an upcoming contest, all entries are to be B&W. There are two divisions, digital B&W and one for B&W Film. I thought I could define Digital B&W but now I'm not so sure. If you shoot it on B&W film but then scan and digitally print it, is it B&W Film? What if you shoot color film and print it traditionally on B&W paper, with an enlarger? The only hard and fast rule I can come up with is for digital B&W - shot with a digital camera and printed with an inkjet. What about shooting with a digital camera and printing it in a darkroom?</p>

<p>Curious as to what your thoughts are....</p>

[User_5888660]

<p>Ask the contest sponsor. </p>

[craig_shearman1]

<p>Not that it answers your question, but the fact that this contest has separate categories shows you something about their thinking. Looks like 1) they're thinking about technology, not photography and 2) they haven't thought through the technology.</p>

[aplumpton]

<p>The contest guidelines don't say? If not you should request a clarification. Digital capture can be transformed to B&W and printed digitally, sometimes the output being an image printed on photographic (chemically developed) paper like Fuji Crystal Archive, or directly onto digital paper (inkjet). Film is less certain, as it is normally processed by enlarging onto B&W photo paper but can also be scanned and printed digitally (inkjet). I would assume the B&W film, if they don't say B&W film and traditional enlarging could be either process. Digital B&W is a bit more certain as it deals with images created in a digital camera and then very generally printed electronically rather than traditionally (rarely, negatives are made from digital photo files for traditional darkroom printing, but not often).</p>

<p>Clearly, the rules should state what they are willing to accept as it is too vague in the manner you stated.<br /> .</p>

[michaellinder]

<p>Can't help you with the OP, Patrick. I'm just a bit taken aback by the premise of the contest. It seems to me that the film vs. digital distinction has been overplayed to the point that it needs to go away. Who really cares (except perhaps for the alleged purists among us) whether an image is produced by way of film or by means of digital technology? The real concern should be the quality of an image.</p>

[jcuknz]

<p>+1 Micheal Linder's final sentance.</p>

[ant_nio_marques]

About the only way I can make sense of the distinction is that it refers to what makes film and digital different - and the

answer is that digital has instant feedback whereas film has to be processed before you know what's in it. That does lead

to different ways of shooting, I think. And if I'm right in my assumption, then 1) the distinction is not so stupid after all,

even if the end result is that the two galleries are similar and 2) what matters is the capturing technology, not what

happens between capture and print.

[frode]

<p>Such more or less artificial distinction between digital and film are made for the sake of the contest. You will have to ask the contest organizers if you are unsure about specific terms and rules.<br>

You find such artificial divisions in almost all kinds of contests.<br /></p>

[lex_jenkins]

<p>Ask the contest administrators for clarification.</p>

<p>To accommodate hybrid technique discussions on photo.net's b&w film and printing forums our policy has been pretty flexible and requires only that some traditional light sensitive media be involved in some part of the process*. By that standard a digital camera capture used to create an inkjet negative transparency for contact printing to handmade cyanotype paper would be acceptable. So would discussions of techniques for exposing and developing b&w film to optimize the results for scanning and inkjet (or other) printing.</p>

<p>And there are some labs that can print digital files to light sensitive gelatin silver RC or fiber papers. A film photographer might decide to tackle a complex repair or adjustment to negatives digitally - such as extensive spotting or cloning to repair a scratch in the emulsion, which would be impractical by any other means with miniature format film - then print the scanned and edited negative to light sensitive gelatin silver paper.</p>

<p>*<em>Even this guideline is flexible, since a process like dye transfer may not involve any light sensitive media at any stage</em>.</p>

[sarah_fox]

<p>Well, looking at the question logically, the B&W <em>film</em> category would have to involve B&W <em>film</em> in some manner, implying nothing about how the image is gotten from film to print. If you can say, "I shot this with ____ film and souped it in ____ developer," it would qualify. If there's a digital workflow involved, the image could be simultaneously B&W film and B&W digital (i.e. could be entered in the category of your choice). </p>

<p>Being the trouble-maker I tend to be, I would find it hard to resist taking a B&W film image, postprocessing the heck out of it to make it as bizarrely manipulated as possible, and then entering it in the B&W film category. :-> Either that, or I would do a straight-up B&W film image of children finger-painting and I would title the image, "Digital imaging." (Of course most people stare at you blankly when you share that joke with them. Either it's not funny, or they don't get it. I don't know which.)</p>

[Member69643]

<p>Interesting comments, and all appreciated. The contest organizers are not responsive, so you have pretty much all the info there is. I intend to enter only prints I make in my darkroom so I'm pretty comfortable with my entries; I was curious as to what others might think. My remaining hangup is whether color negatives, printed on B&W paper, are germane, or constitute a bit of cheating. I lean, personally, that it's more cheating than not, so I won't be using the one or two shots where that might have been an option.</p>

<p>Sarah - funny you should mention that because there is also a group of categories open to either film or digital. So, there are like 10 categories for Digital B&W, 8 for Film B&W, and 8 or so for B&W of any flavor. That last group includes "Highly Manipulated" shots. Alas, there's not wording allowed on the prints.</p>

[Norma Desmond]

<p>Having a contest that specifies film or digital doesn't seem any different to me than having a contest for large format photos or polaroid photos. There's a tendency to make too big a deal over the differences between film and digital, for sure. There's also a tendency to claim no relevant difference. Neither tendency, in the extreme, makes much sense to me.</p>

<p>I agree with Sarah that if you shot it with film, you'd likely qualify, though I'd take the advice of others and ask the rules committee.</p>

[thomas_k.]

<p>My personal comment is that B&W image (film or digital) is one that I intend from the beginning to be in black and white. It translates to using B&W film or shooting digital in B&W. I do not convert images from color anymore, I intend them to be B&W before pressing shutter button.</p>

[Norma Desmond]

<p>Thomas, I intend many of my photos to be b&w as well. I still shoot digitally in color, basically so I can have control over the conversion to b&w. I find it gives me many more choices in my b&w and flexibility in determining what tones get assigned to what color channels. This seems a better option to me than allowing more generically pre-programmed camera software to determine how the conversion will happen.</p>

[craig_shearman1]

<p>"Having a contest that specifies film or digital doesn't seem any different to me than having a contest for large format photos or polaroid photos."<br /><br />So if I shot 4x5 Polaroid with my view camera, which category does it go in? :)</p>

[aplumpton]

<p>One can make an exhibition or contest as specific as one wants to. It is important only to read the details of the exhibition to know what is wanted and to enter or not depending upon one's personal desire or not to follow the rules. They seem to be quite wide according to your description, so the contest organizers have to accept anything within those boudaries.</p>

<p>I am having two group exhibitions in June. One is entirely free in regard to medium and subject matter, which I will define myself. The other relates to images (paintings, photographs, sculpture, etc.) which have been photographed (or if photographs simply transferred) and will be printed onto 11 foot high by 5 foot wide sails to be placed in a treed park. My original choice of photographs were altered when I found out (from reading the exhibition objectives in detail) that the work had to relate to the county in which the exhibition was occurring. That narrowed my image choice somewhat. As long as you remain within the description provided by the contest organizers you are OK.</p>

<p>I don't see anything wrong with shooting film or digital in colour and then converting to black and white. While I prefer B&W film to colour film for final B&W printing, if the latter is done in the darkroom there is still plenty of opportunity to modify the tonalities and contrast of the projected image although B&W film makes that process easier. However, with digital capture, and it is just a personal preference of approach, I like to be able to visualize in B&W during the exposure and quite often will shoot in B&W digital mode to sense (pre-visualize) the effect of the monotone capture. It also allows me to think in B&W terms more easily when shooting. I then switch to colour mode for final exposure (of course, some quick moving subjects don't allow that process to occur) and I will have already had some idea of how the scene is going to reproduce when converted to B&W. I also can more easily judge where I will want to play with the colour sliders when converting, so as to better create differences of colours which tend to reproduce with a same level of grey tone (Like using colour lens filters with B&W film).</p>

[thomas_k.]

<p>Fred:</p>

<blockquote>

<p>I find it gives me many more choices</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I'm often doing the opposite: giving myself less choices when I shoot in B&W. Also by using single focal lens and being forced to include or exclude parts of image presenting itself to me. My point is: setting some limiting rules can lead to fruitful explorations - in my opinion and experience.</p>

[Norma Desmond]

<p>Thomas, thanks for further amplifying. Proof of the wisdom of the saying "To each his own." Setting limits can be a wonderful way to work.</p>

[david_smith110]

<blockquote>

<p>Either that, or I would do a straight-up B&W film image of children finger-painting and I would title the image, "Digital imaging."<br>

</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Lol. Just freakin lol. :)</p>