Brad_ Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 >>> Its quite ok to make a choice, but a choice isn't an excuse. The decision is, obviously, ultimately a choice. But for some, or perhaps many, that can be driven by excuses, i.e. the reflexive I have a 40 hour a week job. Also, some may feel and perhaps really are motivated, but for whatever reason are not able to produce the consistent level of work necessary to gain notice, or do not have the energetic drive to make things happen with respect to opportunities. Thus the above: "I think it is much more about embracing a strong commitment/drive ethic. That's evident in the consistently excellent work they produce, the high standards they impose on themselves, and the connections fostered through relentless pursuits." Without outstanding work and holding oneself to very high standards, or not having the hustle and drive to make things happen, it's difficult to see how that can lead to the level of success this latest diversion of the conversation is premised on and under discussion, i.e. "Many of the photographer we admire had the luck of knowing the right people who were instrumental in them getting grants and such. " www.citysnaps.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norma Desmond Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 <p>Brad, I think that was said because there's some truth to it. Just as there's truth to what you say. The drive ethic, as you notice, is important . . . vital. So, IMO, is talent. But there are lots of people who have drive and talent and get great results who don't get admired by the public because they don't get the kind of recognition others get. As you also state, drive and ambition often go beyond the art itself and go into meeting the right people and positioning oneself (or playing the right games) to get ahead or noticed. Some very fine artists have artistic drive but not the other kind to get recognized. So, yes, if one doesn't get ahead in the art world and isn't shown in galleries, there could be any number of reasons that have nothing to do with one's artistic drives or talent. And sometimes it is a matter of that additional luck. Hell, in some cases and some circles, it might have more to do with who you're sleeping with and what you look like.</p> <p><em>" . . . for many that can be driven by excuses . . ."</em></p> <p>My main point here was that I have no way of knowing whether that's the case for Marie or Marc, who are my peers, and yours, most likely laboring under similar responsibilities and at a similar level. I can't tell, and wouldn't care to or try to, whether they are using their jobs as an excuse without having a lot of other information.</p> <p>It often takes a lot more than drive, motivation, excellent results, and a strong artistic work ethic to gain recognition. Sometimes being in the right place at the right time helps, sometimes who you know helps, sometimes personality helps, sometimes good self promotion skills help, sometimes finding a popular niche helps, and sometimes just plain luck helps.</p> <p>Luck can be very important. Some of the greatest photos made have an element of luck (accident) to them. And that takes nothing away from what the photographer did to capture it. It just adds a very special quality to a photo, in some cases, and sometimes to an artistic career.</p> We didn't need dialogue. We had faces! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad_ Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 Fred, that's all true, of course, and goes without saying. I'm offering my personal observations from knowing many dozens of photographers, over many years. Yes, they are anecdotal, but after time it's quite easy to see what drives success, and easier to see what doesn't. Is that foolproof? Of course not. www.citysnaps.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norma Desmond Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 <p>Brad, I can relate. It's the same way I judged that many snappers on the street are not street photographers and seem to be participating in a fad. I'm not going to ask you how many of these folks you've encountered or talked to because I trust your instincts and powers of observation and engagement on the street. But, that you or I can say these things anecdotally and in general is something different from saying it in direct response to someone in this thread whose circumstances I don't know. In this thread, the word "Excuse" was used as a direct response to Marie, and that's a very different story from what you're getting at in your last remark.</p> We didn't need dialogue. We had faces! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 <p>So whose definition of success are we using here? What parameters are we using to gauge ambition? Not everyone who picks up a camera wants to be a pro. I've frequently written here that for me photography is a fun pastime. I have no desire to publish books, sell prints, exhibit my work (although I do get offers occasionally.) I don't want to start blogging about my experiences as a photographer as has been suggested to me by a few folks in the past. I have no desire to create some sort of web presence that will garner me lots of attention and turn that into teaching workshops like other street shooters do. I'm just having fun. I don't care how my work gets received by others.</p> <p>Overall, I'm pleased with how my work as progressed over the years. I still struggle with some aspects and right now I seem to be in a slump where I'm just not excited about what I'm producing these days. I get 8 days off a month. Out of those 8 days, I might be able to devote a full 4 days to shooting. That's 48 days a year. That's not a lot of time when you think about the time professional photographers have to devote to their projects and why the growth I've had seems to have taken so long. The other 4 days a month I'm off is broken up into daily responsibilities and a few visits to the darkroom when I can squeeze in the time. Some days I can get an hour or two of shooting along Hollywood Blvd since I can get there in less then an hour from where I live. My vacation days are often broken up into meeting different responsibilities too so I devote time to photography as best I can.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie1664878514 Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 In terms of photography, I don't think it is important to gain notice or be admired by the public. They are definitely "nice to have", but if you take photos just (or mainly) because of these, something is not working as it should be, and I seriously doubt whether photography is really a good choice to achieve these to start with. The joy we can get from taking photos should be more than enough to justify what we put into it, not to mention those invaluable records of all those people or things important to us, which we will get in the form of photographs. Good photos or even great photos? They are a kind of lovely by-products that we may get from time to time whilst we keep on enjoying taking photos. Don't have enough time? I would say let photography follows your life, instead of arrange you life following photography. Use photography to tell your life's story. Your story. This is one way (among others) to pay your utmost respect to photography in my opinion. I have no problem that some photographers, especially professional ones, try to use photography as a means to gain notice or get themselves admired by the public. Fully understandable. But clearly not all of us need to do this. Actually most of us don't need to care about these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lex_jenkins Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 <p>Fred's observations about goals for photography beyond the simple enjoyment - gallery shows, publications, etc. - resonated with me. I haven't entered a show since the 1980s. Too expensive, for most show standards. I can't afford the framing. But in other cities I'm seeing more acceptance of guerilla displays on the cheap - prints suspended from bulldog clamps and thumbtacked to the wall. I might try something like that if I can find the right venue.</p> <p>Fortunately on demand book publishing is more accessible and I'm looking forward to trying Blurb. But I have too many thematically different projects in various stages of incompletion, none quite ready for publishing.</p> <p>Can't complain, though. Beats the slump I experienced between 2008-2011 when I took very few photos and wasn't enthusiastic about the craft. The worst I can say now is that I'm enjoying making new photos so much I haven't had time to organize them better for some sort of display or publication. But I've received lots of constructive feedback from folks on photo.net so it's been a very good couple of years in terms of creativity. Miserable physically, but good creatively.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad_ Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 >>> So whose definition of success are we using here? Up above, as a metric, I was using your: "Many of the photographer we admire had the luck of knowing the right people who were instrumental in them getting grants and such," i.e., the admired well-known photographers. The point I was trying to make is, if that's what you're looking for, that path is available - if you have the drive, outstanding work, and the hustle to make it happen. www.citysnaps.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricM Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 <p>"So many of us choose our path out of fear disguised as practicality." - Jim Carrey</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarieH Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 <p>I work a job to make a living, its my first priority. I'm a bit cranky because right now I'm on sick leave since February, I'm wearing a miserable brace on my left leg for a stress fracture due to worn out cartilage. No violins here, I know it could be much worse. But it really slowed me down, frustratingly. I'd go out in my neighborhood once or twice a week, as I could and catch something locally on a trip to the grocery store. You can get shots anywhere, that's true. Now my camera weight is a bit too much, I went from canon 40d to pentax k5, and now I'm thinking fuji rangefinder since weight is an issue.<br> I enjoy photography for myself, have taken mental breaks from it lol but I like to think you guys are my comrades in arms. Lex and Fred and Eddie said it best. You have to work around your personal issues and use what time you have wisely. <br> You don't need to be a starving artist, there's no honor in that. Vivian Meir was a nanny, never saw recognition for her work and died a lonely death. But no one could doubt her love of the craft and for her subjects in general. One understated crazy lady, if you've seen the documentary, but with great vision.</p> Henri Matisse. “Creativity takes courage” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 <p>I was just thinking about Lee Friedlander. Here's a photographer who devoted his whole life to the medium and continues to do so. He's talented sure, but he also moved to New York and met the right people who helped him get established. He's traveled the US numerous times exploring various themes and he's traveled the world as well. He has an enormous body of work. He's also been married to the same woman for most of his life and as raised children of his own. Could he have accomplished what he as a photographer if he worked a 40 hour week with two weeks vacation? I doubt it. I'm sure there are many gifted photographers out there who will never get any recognition beyond their friends and family.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarieH Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 <p>Here Eric:<br> “Start by doing what’s necessary, then what’s possible, and suddenly you are doing the impossible.” – St Francis of Assisi</p> Henri Matisse. “Creativity takes courage” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricM Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 <p>I like that one, Marie. I know every excuse in the book...beleive me, I've gotten on and off the treadmill of life, marriage/mortgage/consumer debt and also distracted by other shiny (safe) things and passions. And I will do so again.</p> <p>I'm tutoring a girl right now in her mid 30's. Her commitment to photography and to get onto the largest budget feature film being shot in North America at the moment includes quitting her great/safe job in Ireland, breaking up a long term relationship, moving and getting a visa for the USA to do an intern with Magnum, assisting Steve Mccurry for months, and moving again to Vancouver and working were she is now, in visual effects with a dslr. This has been her priority and anything getting in the way that, would be an excuse.</p> <p> Ian Ruhter. <em>Silver and Light</em></p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norma Desmond Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 <p>No, it wouldn't. It would be a different priority.</p> <p>One hopes she doesn't look back and see her photographic drive and commitment as an excuse for leaving her husband and job and regret the whole thing. It wouldn't surprise me if some people in her life who are in the business of judging her will judge her just that way, as making photography the excuse. That would most likely be as wrong as accusing her of making excuses if she stayed with her husband and job. If something turns out to be a mistake, it's a mistake. If things don't work out, they don't work out. I find it better not to beat myself up about things and not to see my life and the lives of others as only either a series of successes or excuses. Life and decision-making are too complicated for that.</p> We didn't need dialogue. We had faces! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricM Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 <p>You have it wrong, Fred. The judgmental, along with those that don't offer support, wont have a place in her life...they quickly drop off like flies and are forgotten about and will get an update with Christmas cards once a year. But those that support her will ride along and contribute to her success. When you commit to your passion, it's an energy and you are a magnet and all sorts of doors open. No one stops and asks if Michelangelo or Einstein made the right choices or that they should have perhaps played it safe as an accountant</p> <p>Jim Carrey on how his late father inspired him to follow his dreams and doing what you love<br> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajMpfPYlHi4</p> <p> </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norma Desmond Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 <p>The judgmental are those that judge as excuses the decisions other people make. That's my point. She should well dismiss and ignore anyone who would judge her decisions to leave and follow her passion. Just as Marie and Marc should dismiss and ignore anyone who would judge as excuses their decisions to work hard at their jobs and prioritize their kids.</p> We didn't need dialogue. We had faces! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricM Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 <p>They can. But it still makes them excuses...</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad_ Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 That's a great story, Eric. Much respect... It's been great watching my good friend Travis Jensen over the last four or five years. Being relatively new to photography, he's come very far in a short period of time. He's extraordinarily talented and passionate, with *nothing* getting in his way with his laser sharp focus, drive, and determination. He's done commercial projects as well as branding campaigns for clothing lines, skate scene products, bags, a hotel branding project in Los Angeles, many charity-based photo projects helping disadvantaged youth on the street, and has a major project going on right now - all from his SF-based street photography that's very energetic and unique. Bodies of his work have been in SF Magazine many times and has had many exhibitions. I'm certain there are things I've forgotten about and left out. Absolutely no doubt in my mind he'll go very far. What's great, is he's doing all of that on *his* terms, in a manner that dovetails with who he is and what he's about. No sucking up to the "overlords" in the sp world with their followers looking for acceptance and guidance. He manages that with loads of regular life responsibilities, working crazy hours under pressure at a large global law firm in SF, spending time with his friends, helping at-risk youth embrace cameras (instead of guns) organizing a photo club, and most importantly spending a ton of time with his 3 and 5 year old sons and is one of the most committed fathers I've seen. He enjoys an amazing family life. Speaking of commitment, a couple years ago he had an SLR tattooed on his arm integrating in with his other tats. While others pontificate and make justifications, he's making it happen. www.citysnaps.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norma Desmond Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 <p>And I have much respect for the stay-at-home mom, like my own, who raises her kids and keeps food on the table and tells me she decided to do that instead of pursuing her art or career, also like my mom. Some people would unknowingly then accuse her of making excuses for that choice and they'd be dead wrong. And I have much respect for the single woman who manages a 40-hour-a-week job and takes care of other responsibilities she's taken on. I have respect for friends of mine who've given up photography in order to take care of their health. And I have respect for the people Eric and Brad know. I don't assume any of them make excuses for not doing other things by talking about the choices they've made and some of the constraints on their time and energy. </p> We didn't need dialogue. We had faces! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norma Desmond Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 <p>Marie, since we've had a few choice quotes in this thread, I thought I'd add one.<br> <br> <em>"Perhaps women have always been in closer contact with reality than men: it would seem to be the just recompense for being deprived of idealism."</em><br /> --Germaine Greer</p> We didn't need dialogue. We had faces! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uhooru Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 <p>Overlords of sp? I like that. Self-appointed I reckon.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnital Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 <p>WOW,<br /> <em>They are just folks with cameras.. (Fred)</em><br /> <br /> I think that it is what technology progress and new developments has done to the massive population at our planet. Nowdays when I walk in the street I can hear many secrets by people with mobile phones. And this is as well with cameras. The prices are relativlly chip ( for the chip brands at least) and most people can buy a camera ,and usually are equipped with the two of them .<br /> That does not mean they are photographers( by the professional definition..). They can be annoying, as they are not even aware of the principales and aesthetics of professional cameraman /photographer.<em><br /></em><br /> (I mean at least not disturbing and not being rude...which is sometimes unevitable...)</p> <p>Thats how I see it at the tip of the iceberg.. ..;-))</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarieH Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 <p>Life leads you where it leads you, good for the girl who left her husband to pursue the unknown, follow her passion... she sounds like a cold hearted bitch and if she sent me a Christmas card, I'd tell her where to shove it. I think you can pursue both worlds without having to dump your friends and family, and if I could start over, I would have majored in photography in my university years. In this life, I chose my family over my personal dreams. I am ok with that choice, it worked out well. Photography is a late in life interest/ passion, and I embrace it with passion and joy. Ok this thread has become tiresome, so over and out. See you on the walk of fame.</p> Henri Matisse. “Creativity takes courage” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricM Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 <blockquote> <p>Life leads you where it leads you...</p> </blockquote> <p>No, it doesn't, Marie.</p> <blockquote> <p>...good for the girl who left her husband to pursue the unknown, follow her passion... she sounds like a cold hearted bitch and if she sent me a Christmas card, I'd tell her where to shove it. I think you can pursue both worlds without having to dump your friends and family</p> </blockquote> <p>That's not what I said, but I'm not surprised at your negative inference, actaully. She followed her passion and committed to it. You, I, everyone, we are foreever surrounded by people that want to be teachers, nurses, engineers, pilots, rock stars and photographers and succeeded at it...they went for what they desired and did not settle for a second safe choice. It's because of people like this that we enjoy music, food, clothes, art, technology and reap the benefits of science and tech. And they all have one thing in common, they had people that supported their commitment along with some that didn't.</p> <p>This altercation's gone on long enough,<br /> it's time I saw some action too!<br /> While you are polishing fine phrases<br /> something useful could be going on.<br /> What's the point of harping on the proper mood?<br /> It never comes to him who shilly-shallies.<br /> Since you pretend to be a poet,<br /> make poetry obey your will. <br /> You know that what we need<br /> is a strong drink to gulp down fast,<br /> so set to work and brew it!<br /> What's left undone today, is still not done tomorrow;<br /> to every day there is a use and purpose;<br /> let Resoluteness promptly seize<br /> the forelock of the Possible,<br /> and then, reluctant to let go again,<br /> she's forced to carry on and be productive</p> <p> </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad_ Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Thank you Fred for the very nice homage to the many people who were, for various reasons, not able to follow their dreams. I think you could have also included many hundred other classes, with at least 200 million other people in the US alone. Many books could be written about those people unable to embrace their passion. It goes without saying, again, that nobody here is looking down on them.. This thread diversion, however, is about those who have decided to follow their dreams in photography and chose not to rely on the very reflexive, "yeah but I have a 40 hour a week job." Personally, I find those stories much more interesting and rewarding, especially understanding how those people were able to accomplish their goals and still lead regular family lives without compromise. It's wonderful that some have the drive and determination, will take some risk, and are able excel. You may feel differently, but in my book they are worthy of celebration. Fortunately, for the benefit of others, there are people like that across all disciplines and professions. >>> And I have much respect for the single woman who manages a 40-hour-a-week job and takes care of other responsibilities she's taken on. And thank you for the hat-tip to my mother. However, despite her enormous responsibilities and living in difficult times, being a very determined person she was still able to pursue her passion, which happened to be art. www.citysnaps.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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