jesse_hutton Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 Amusing thread, y'all. There's nothing "illogical" about leica cameras. It comes down to a matter of personal preference, which is something that can't be said to follow hard and fast the rules of logic anyway. For kicks, a few justifications in favor of my M6 with its 50mm summicron: 1) Incredible optics! Seriously, the results taken from my local pro B&W lab are sometimes breathtaking: sharper, with better shadow detail, that "pop", etc. ( I have processed stuff from my nikon there for comparison, stuff taken with a Nikkor 50mm f/1.8, so the comparison seems pretty valid) 2) Extremely durable. I haven't dropped my leica down a flight of stairs, but I'm comforted by reports of people who have and who've said that it still works. Incidentally, I dropped my old Nikon N70 from knee height (camera was in my lap, I stood up to get off the metro, and plop) and the batteries went flying out and it cracked the body. I had to glue it because there was a jagged piece that was stabbing my right palm every time I took a picture. To the N70's credit, however, it did still function properly after that. 3) Has great longevity. I'm not very old, but I intend to keep my leica for the rest of my picture taking life. I doubt very seriously that it will become obsolete and unrepairable while I (or even my future children) are alive. 4) Investment factor. It's illogica to buy a camera that you can recoup virtually 100% of the original investment on when reselling? (I haven't done this, but considering the price I paid for mine, which is second hand, and what they continue to go for, it's not far fetched.) 5) Lastly, I fricking love it! I'm not interested in carrying around medium or large format gear in order to get great results. My old Nikon was heavy and awkward enough. The M6 is small, and so solid that it feels like a brick in my hands. I took the it hiking through a pretty dense redwood forest shortly after getting it, and I was instantly sold on the feel while climbing and jumping over huge logs, running down slopes, etc. There are many other reasons to prefer Leica rangefinders, and most people here are already aware of them, so I won't bother continuing. There's a photog on the web named Dave Beckerman (www.davebeckerman.com) who wrote a review of the M6 (posted on his website), which explains from his own experience the exact phenomenon being discussed. I found it very useful when I was considering a leica. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris c Posted January 8, 2003 Author Share Posted January 8, 2003 Jessie...I like #5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
._._z Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 "There's nothing "illogical" about leica cameras. It comes down to a matter of personal preference" Same for heroin use and Hummel-collecting. "5) Lastly, I fricking love it!" More "logic." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Smith Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 Bailey What are "Hummels"? Robin Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
._._z Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 http://www.google.com/search?q=hummel+collecting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack_lo_..._t_o Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 What happened to this thread kinda reminds me of terrorism. There's a topic and a buncha people discussing the topic, everybody more or less contributing something, and then one lone wacko(sorry Scott) walks into the room and shits on everybody in the room, and leaves. Suddenly all the normal, mature people (sorry Scott) find it necessary to deal with his insults rather than the subject we were building on. It shows the power of negativity. If I said:" You Leica users are all a bunch of creative far sighted artistic types who know what the finest machine is for meaningful photography and spend huge amounts of time and energy thinking about how to improve your art and help others!! So there!" , I doubt if there would be any notice of it in the succeeding entries. It seems that today, it only takes a tiny minority to disrupt the constructive activities of the majority, dictating the agenda for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allen Herbert Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 Well, thanks Scott. I was starting to feel lonely (apart from a few notable exceptions), i was starting to think i was the only Leica fan on this Forum. I suppose its takes some solid flaming to bring the others out....should have thought of that myself. Scott, i think your photos are excellent, and i enjoyed looking at them (yes,really). Long may your flames continue; it bring out the best in us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allen Herbert Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 Even brought Mike Dixon out of the woodwork (i used to enjoy his pics), i thought he was long gone to other Forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris c Posted January 8, 2003 Author Share Posted January 8, 2003 Good analogy John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jesse_hutton Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 Baily, you should realize that, as it's something that pertains to _personal preference_, liking or owning a leica is neither illogical (my statement, contradicting the subject of this thread) nor logical (what I expected you to infer; i.e. it itself is out of the realm of logic) . You can give justifications for or against it and that's pretty much it. Whether these justifications are logical or not depends on your own situation, and everybody's is different. You seem to have misinterpreted what I wrote. In any case, the sense that the word illogical carries in the parent post is something like "mysterious" which is rather different than its strict sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
._._z Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 "as it's something that pertains to _personal preference_, liking or owning a leica is neither illogical ... not logical" Personal preferences cannot be exempted from logic. Then surely can be considered logical or not. By the way, after Beckerman wrote that piece you refer to, he wrote about supplementing his stable with a Canon system. Apparently he ... logically ... found the Leica sufficiently lacking in some areas so as to need another system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allen Herbert Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 You would have thought ,at least,he would have chosen Nikon. Those plassy Canons...oops i'v just bought a a plassy D100. Talk about two faced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Rowlett Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 Really, had it not been for Scott's reputation for being quite skilled and knowledgable about photography, I would simply have dismissed his statements as coming from just some crackpot. I'm beginning to think that, in his wisdom, he has stirred us up on purpose for some higher purpose. It may have worked, too. Backups? We don’t need no stinking ba #.’ _ , J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jesse_hutton Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 Baily, I looked for a link to the Beckerman - Canon thing, but couldn't find one... "he ... logically ... found the Leica..." I think you're confusing yourself with your use of the word logical. Should one be aware of one's personal preferences and understand their ramifications? Absolutely. But it doesn't necessarily have much to do with logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vic_. Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 Mr. Tony Rowlett, I think people like Scott Eaton, Allen Herbert, and Bill Mitchell come from the school of "Crazy Wisdom" a legitimate and sometimes more effective way of elevating levels of understanding. You only realize their value after you have attained what they wanted you to achieve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
._._z Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 "Crazy Wisdom" I'll half-agree with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
._._z Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 "I looked for a link to the Beckerman - Canon thing, but couldn't find one..." He discussed it months ago in his 'Daybooks'. Most of his Bronx photos were with the Canon, I believe. "it doesn't necessarily have much to do with logic." Oh sure. You could have an illogical, racist preference, for instance. But it can be understood as logical or illogical; whether you want to understand it is another question. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squareframe Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 this got me to wondering. if a forum comprised of wackos, gets called as wackos, would they know it, or would they consider the one that called them wackos, a wacko? hmmm .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ray . Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 Yes as if anyone who calls a boat a portrait of himself could be relied upon to determine who or what is a wack job... ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jesse_hutton Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 Bailey, Heh, you're getting cleverer and cleverer! Now I think you're mudying the idea even more with something that happens to be illogical, but which is also immoral. (If it _were_ based on some criteria that you found to be "logical" you would then be a biggot then, I presume?) It's a bad example for that, but also for the term "racist preferences" which is kind of a strange form of "preference." At least it's a lot different than liking Leica rangefinders or dark beer or flemish art or... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
._._z Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 "I think you're mudying the idea even more with something that happens to be illogical, but which is also immoral. (If it _were_ based on some criteria that you found to be "logical" you would then be a biggot then, I presume?)" Sorry, you missed my point. Besides, I didn't mean to mudy (sic) the waters in discussing anyone's 'biggotry' (sic). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug_landrum Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 <p>Tony, I don't think that Scott Eaton has contributed anything positive to this forum by his post on this thread. I think he has turned off some people who don't care to be ambushed by a disrespectful post about using Leica equipment on a forum dedicated to Leica photography. His penultimate statement that:</p><p></p><p><i>This forces me to the conclusion that most Leica users (most here) are nothing more than arrogant, hatefull hobbiests that are overwhelmed by their images only because their lack of camera skills and technique requires the use of Leica gear to get decent results in the first place. </i><p><p></p><p>Mr. Eaton is simply being hateful. I am an advocate of free speech. I defend Mr. Eaton's right to his views and his ability to speak his views. But that does not mean his views should not be condemned for what they are - petty jealous hate. And freedom of speech does not mean that civil society does not have the right to condemn hateful speech.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ray . Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 I'm sure Scott couldn't be a totally bad guy, but problem is I've <i>never</i>seen him make a comment on this forum that wasn't essentially the same message he stated on this thread. Negative generalizations about the people on Leica forum are the only reason he goes here. Maybe he ought to run for office, since he seems so inclined to twist facts. Witness his comments on digital and medium format. As if there's isn't constant discussion of those topics here. Sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henk Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 The thing Scott obviously excluded in his post is that lens quality also has to do with more things then sharpness etc. I am too amazed by the way alot of Leica users rave about the sharpness and quality of Leica optics, dismissing any other brand as second to nothing. These people obviously lack the experience to say this. 35mm film is not the medium to be picky about optical quality. BTW anyone ever tried a 'blad with 120 planar-s?...... The clean separation of some Leica lenses is quite nice, yes indeed, but it does only make a picture LOOK sharp(enlarge it and youll know). And BTW Leica does not have a patent on clean separation..... Doug Herr has a quite interesting point, specialists can have a logical preverence for Leica, funny enough i started in Leica gear because i got a pretty nice assignment which gave me a larger budget to spend on gear. At that time i chose to buy a R6.2 just because i had the cash and needed a camera which didnt raise eyebrows for a certain job. I only had beat up Nikon gear back then...... Essentially i only have that camera because i need something that looks good sometimes, allthough i like the 50 cron and 90 cron/elmarit for their clean look. Specializing on a certain photographic look is what draws photographers to Leica IMO, remember Ladislav Drezdowicz with his 35 lux asph shots of Tibet? (http://www.photo.net/photodb/user?user_id=571136). As opposed to Scott i try to ignore people raving about Leica, its not that i disagree, but i just have not found anything to back it up. In other words i never found any reason why i should prefer Leica glass over anything else, and i actually tried plenty. In other words when i put my Leica shots under an enlager(Leitz englarger i have to admit :-/) and compare them to my Nikons or other brand shots there is nothing i can find which could make me believe one is better then another. OK Scott wasnt really nice about it, but he was right about certain matters, i dont think brand-related fanatism(yes i think so sometimes) is doing Leica any good, probably even to the point that people dont even question(and value?) their own findings anymore, that SUCKS IMO. Probably in todays sociaty this is inevitable, who doesnt want to believe that with throwing around mayor cash you can become whatever you want..... Greetings, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Smith Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Henk "Essentially i only have that camera because i need something that looks good sometimes" Is a weird reason to buy a camera. You could have bought a lot cheaper camera that would not have "raised eyebrows" _ Canon Ftb, SRT101 etc. "Specializing on a certain photographic look is what draws photographers to Leica" Exactly - for many people this is the look they are looking for --- so it is "better" I don't believe you are being truly honest - you bought it because you thought it would be "better". No need to pretend! Maybe you are disappointed in it, but you do not say that. Notice I am not attempting to define "better". Robin Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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