PART 2 to Lightroom seems too intrusive, suggestions?

DickArnold · December 24, 2013

Very interesting conversation. Well above my head. What I do know is that I took 450 pictures at a swim meet weekend before last. I selected about 100 images, put them in a collection, did synchronized edits with the 100 for things like white balance, then individually edited each of the 100, exported them to do a JPEG conversion and file and had them on the web in about two hours. I then did some prints and mailed them. I have been a PS user since almost day one. I mostly edit in LR and if I want to do, say, a big print I go to PS through edit in. I do all my other printing in LR. The print capability is there. Not taking sides because I don't know enough to do that, I have followed and respected and trusted Andrew Rodney for quite some time.

philfx · December 24, 2013

I have had this TIF vs PSD discussion before. This maybe the time I should adopt TIFlayers, and drop PSD. I have yet to make that transition.

I could do as suggested, and use it in the file name. (At least that would be one positive by-product of my rants:-) . Force PSD out, and use TIF. I'm not sure how much of an impact this will have on the overall issues with LR, but every step forward is good.

Barry. If you have TIF as preference, and process the Raw then Edit In PS, and work on the file, and then save in PSD, it is a new file. SInce LR has no browser feature, you have to tell it to look for a new file in the folder. A work around and using one file format DOES help this one aspect.

Changing formats is something I have done since these file formats were introduced in a program. (as Andrew mentions Aldus- Freehand). I think I have to start the transition going forward, and on older files on a need be basis. I have 4 catalogs with 200K images being the smallest. A good chunk of them in PSD. It would be a pain if I was OCD enough to want uniformity throughout.

Looks like Dave has moved on and is working with DxO. I think DxO has a great interface and workflow. I am recently evaluating RawTherapee which looks like another potential tool. If the Standard edition applied to me, @ $69, I would surely get it, but Elite which supports a couple of my cameras, without PhaseOne support is $199. If it supported PO, I wouldn't hesitate. One main reason I use LR is that it does support IIQ files. So when LR's dual monitor lock-in evolves, and perhaps it grows a browser, and allows the tool sets to dock and can be organized, LR would be my main tool. Of course the answer to that last one is that I should learn to use the tools in that specific order and no other way. ;-)...No thanks, I'm rather happy with the results I get of my images.

We have many minds in the world, surely we can't expect one program to satisfy all. But with those changes, LR would be off to a great growth.

philfx · December 24, 2013

Dick, Your example is a one that LR handles very well. Its just not the type of work I do. We are all people with our own experiences and knowledge. Everyone here deserves respect, to at least some degree. There are people here with great knowledge and decades of experince. No body is flaming anyone or even the program. Stating the shortcomings of a program in a perspective, which happens to be shared is no cause to shun. Just because someone knows the program like the back of the hand, doesn't mean to use that hand and push another to the sideline as if their input is wrong. Which is what can easily happen if some doesn't know the ins and outs of what they are talking about.

Nothing I have said is wrong. These shortcomings are some of the reasons people using other programs. Should I use TIF vs PSD, perhaps things would be easier on me. It isn't that I am working incorrectly. On the contrary, it is a limitation of the program, and we have to adjust towards it. just how much of a personal limitation do you allow before you switch programs? Some of us don't have many choices as C1 and LR are the only well supported Raw Dev that support IIQ. (I hope Raw Therapee excells). So it is what it is. One can hope to have features others really can use. If LR had a Browser featrue in the LIB mode, it would be a huge improvement for many(No negative impact for added options). If the dual screen behaved independently, it would be a great improvement. If you can rearrange the tools, or dock them, I could tidy up my workflow. Nothing wrong with these suggestions.

digitaldog · December 24, 2013

Phil, it will not make any difference if you use TIFF or PSD in the context of your issues with LR. TIFF is simply a better archival format.

IF you want a browser, there are many and Bridge has hooks to other Adobe products. Like you, I don't care for it or use it. One major reason is it isn't a DAM and LR is. It sounds like a lot of your frustration (and perhaps Daves) is that LR is a DAM. If you pulled out Library (the DAM part) and just looked at Develop, you'd have ACR. Which means ACR+Bridge might be a better solution. That was suggested many, many posts ago.

I doubt Adobe would make LR a browser and a DAM, they already have both built. It would be useful if scrolling through Library and viewing your images was as fast an experience as it is in say Bridge (or even iPhoto).

Let's set the record straight, this statement about LR is wrong: You can't even make adjustments and save the file and find it unless you Sync the folder every time. Hopefully you now see that you have several options in terms of moving raw processing from LR to other app's and back again.

DickArnold · December 24, 2013

Phil. I meant no offense. I have learned a lot from Andrew over time. As I said this is way above my head. Being a competitive swimmer I want to stay in the shallow end and out of deep end of this discussion. I wish you all the best. I have learned a couple of things from this discussion so it has been worth my while. It does take two parties to get into a productive discussion so you held up your end, IMO. One can never know enough about LR and PS and other programs. Dick

philfx · December 24, 2013

Phil, it will not make any difference if you use TIFF or PSD in the context of your issues with LR. TIFF is simply a better archival format

</blockquote>

I agree, and know that Tif/PSD won't make a big difference. I didn't focus in on that and make it a primary issue.

It sounds like a lot of your frustration (and perhaps Daves) is that LR is a DAM. If you pulled out Library (the DAM part) and just looked at Develop, you'd have ACR. Which means ACR+Bridge might be a better solution. That was suggested many, many posts ago.

</blockquote>

Yes Andrew, a lot has to do with it being a DAM, but more so NOT having a proper browser. And ACR is not really LR without Lib(unless CS6 ACR has changed drastically). I use CS5/6.7 is the latest Adobe lets me install as a Raw dev. LR tool setup is MUCH better, the print module is great, the interface customization is great, having the idea(DAM) folders accessible with raw edits thumbnails is great. the folders and seeing the raw adjustments is the great KICKER.... (So ACR can't hang, considering) See I currently use ACDSeePro, but it naturally doesn't translate the Raw adjustments made in its previews. Nor do other browsers. So it is only natural to require a Adobe Browser supporting preview of the RAW conversions, and as you said Bridge would be good, as I think I remember it does show the Raw edits, but I have had it crash on me so often it was simply useless. Adobe needs a real supported Browser! And it would be a bonus if it were dockable in LR (I know the docking/interface customization part is asking for miracles). An overall issue is not knowing what files are really in your client folders.

I doubt Adobe would make LR a browser and a DAM, they already have both built.

</blockquote>

This is just not so. Library mode is not a browser(unless you mean Bridge, which had been useless for me).

Let's set the record straight, this statement about LR is wrong: You can't even make adjustments and save the file and find it unless you Sync the folder every time.

</blockquote>

I was referring to the Edit In PS as TIF, then Saving in PS as PSD. (this is still true, right?) Although Andrew may have me convinced that I should drop PSD, which would help if I save only in the same format as I open it.

JRCrowe · December 24, 2013

<a href="http://regex.info/blog/lightroom-goodies/folder-watch">This plugin</a> for LR is worth looking at. It scans designated folders and subfolders for new images and updates the library with any new images that it finds. Looks like you are able to control the frequency of scans. Its practically free too.

digitaldog · December 24, 2013

See I currently use ACDSeePro, but it naturally doesn't translate the Raw adjustments made in its previews. Nor do other browsers.

</blockquote>

I don't know anything about that product. But IF it's a raw converter, that's going to be an issue with every such product. That is, the adjustments you make are not visible until you render an image from the raw. Again, all such raw converters, ACR/LR or otherwise show you a preview based on their engine and whatever rendering instructions you build. There is no such rendered image yet! Raw is raw. The proprietary raw processing builds on-the-fly a preview based on what the image will appear like once you render. Then, any browser or DAM will show you what the image actually looks like. Raw converters are Just In Time processors. If you import a raw in LR and apply edits, until you tell the converter: Take this raw data, take the instructions and build pixels. Until then, you'll never see this elsewhere. The image has yet to be created.

I was referring to the Edit In PS as TIF, then Saving in PS as PSD. (this is still true, right?)

</blockquote>

No. And further, you can ask for a TIFF but all you've got using Edit In is an image in memory. Until you save it to disk, it isn't a TIFF or PSD or JPEG! The setup would honor what you ask for IF you select Save. IOW, you can set LR to Edit In and specify a TIFF. ACR actually renders that data and those instructions to create pixels. They are presented to you as an image. If you close the file without saving, you got nothing! If you close and save, Photoshop knows you asked for a TIFF and saves the data as such. If you selected PSD instead in the Save dialog, you'd get a PSD. The file format here is immaterial.

philfx · December 24, 2013

I don't know anything about that product. But IF it's a raw converter, that's going to be an issue with every such product. That is, the adjustments you make are not visible until you render an image from the raw. Again, all such raw converters, ACR/LR or otherwise show you a preview based on their engine and whatever rendering instructions you build. There is no such rendered image yet! Raw is raw. The proprietary raw processing builds on-the-fly a preview based on what the image will appear like once you render. Then, any browser or DAM will show you what the image actually looks like. Raw converters are Just In Time processors.

</blockquote>

Yes, that's what I'm saying, reading my post, not a selective sentence. I think you're still trying to teach me something as if I don't know :-)

No. And further, you can ask for a TIFF but all you've got using Edit In is an image in memory. Until you save it to disk, it isn't a TIFF or PSD or JPEG! The setup would honor what you ask for IF you select Save. IOW, you can set LR to Edit In and specify a TIFF. ACR actually renders that data and those instructions to create pixels. They are presented to you as an image. If you close the file without saving, you got nothing! If you close and save, Photoshop knows you asked for a TIFF and saves the data as such. If you selected PSD instead in the Save dialog, you'd get a PSD. The file format here is immaterial.

</blockquote>

Agian, yes, I understand the concept, and workings. Except that....

If you close the file without saving, you got nothing! If you close and save, Photoshop knows you asked for a TIFF and saves the data as such. If you selected PSD instead in the Save dialog, you'd get a PSD.

</blockquote>

This last point is where LR will also cut off and not make the round trip back into LR. This is what I have been saying. I have lots of images to edit and Christmas is almost here and need to make sure I don't miss it. If LR had a browser, I would do better with my time. I wish you all in this thread a Merry Christmas, as we can all use something to be merry about regardless of what reason you celebrate, Cheers!

lex_jenkins · December 24, 2013

John, thanks for the reminder about Jeffrey's plugins. I downloaded a few earlier this year and completely forgot about them. I've added that one to the list of plugins to try.

And thanks again for the folder sync tip. I'd tried another sync method but it didn't clear up some problems. Applying that sync to a couple of the most troublesome folders finally got rid of dozens of the dreaded "?" missing photo icons after I screwed up on batch moving of photos earlier this year. And it found the photos I'd edited outside of Lightroom or renamed via Windows Explorer.

digitaldog · December 24, 2013

This last point is where LR will also cut off and not make the round trip back into LR.

</blockquote>

ONLY if you circumvent what you asked for! I'm still not at all certain what your point is. Certainly not the bit about: You can't even make adjustments and save the file and find it unless you Sync the folder every time.

Let me try again. IF you select within the Edit In command that you want a TIFF, you'll get a TIFF. If you select within Edit In command that you want a TIFF and, in Photoshop circumvent what you asked LR for, you go out of your way to do a Save As... and save as a PSD, you'll get a PSD not a TIFF. Why you'd do that is totally unclear! And this disconnect in the file format you brought upon yourself is unnecessary anyway, just save as TIFF. It *sounds* like you are doing the above, asking for one format within the Edit In command and getting another, hence this idea you have to sync something? IF that is true, it's user error. IF I'm misunderstanding you, please provide a step by step process of what you are doing, what you get and what you expect.

Bottom line: IF you use Edit In Command correctly, the round trip will work as you desire, with no further work on your part. This has really nothing to do with specific file formats, what may or may not be seen outside the raw converter browser/DAM.

If LR had a browser, I would do better with my time.

</blockquote>

How so other than you don't have to import anything? How can a database not have a step where you tell it what you want it to track? A browser doesn't track anything. It looks into a folder and shows you what's there, it has no idea what was in the previous or next folder. And what does that have to do with the idea that: You can't even make adjustments and save the file and find it unless you Sync the folder every time?

deanmeeks · December 25, 2013

Dave,

I use to moan and groan about Lightroom until I purchased and read Scott Kelby's Lightroom 4 book for digital photographers. All problems solved. All file managing, storage, workflow, and printing is smooth and easy now.

Thank you Scott Kelby.

Marc Meeks

philfx · December 25, 2013

ONLY if you circumvent what you asked for!

</blockquote>

I'm not about to go into preferences and change how to open the file format each time I want to switch it. Besides, sometimes you think a flat TIF is all you need, and realize you make further edits and layers, so I saved them in PSD. Yes, NOT saving in PSD from now on will help a lot. I am practicing the switch already.

How so other than you don't have to import anything? How can a database not have a step where you tell it what you want it to track? A browser doesn't track anything. It looks into a folder and shows you what's there, it has no idea what was in the previous or next folder. And what does that have to do with the idea that: You can't even make adjustments and save the file and find it unless you Sync the folder every time?

</blockquote>

Not only that you don't have to import anything UNTIL you want to add to the database.... It should have a step where you specify tracking in case you want to make it portable. . You lost me with "it has no idea on previous or next folder". Its a browser, just go to it. Or if you want select to show subfolders. And what does that have to do with the idea that:

See above reply.

_____

Regarding file management...

I'm sure Scott's version is great specifically for LR. He has great content. I also find his "partner's" Matt Kloskowski's tips most helpful. I'm sure for many people it is all they need.

The DAM Book, is what I found to be pretty helpful. Having a pretty solid IT background, lots of the content is obvious to me. But for anyone not familiar with backing up and file management, I HIGHLY recommend it. He has one version for LR specifically. If you don't mind locking All your images to the way LR manages files, and only accessing them in a organized fashion via LR... its one way to do it. His original and I think still the best version is to manage files by Folder hierarchy.. That way if and when you want/need to change 1 program, or have your image database needing access without LR, you can find things rather logically. I for one don't believe in allowing 1 brand program manage something so important to me. I recommend investing the time to manage it yourself.

I often have to send magazines PDF files and not seeing these (I have tried the 3rd party plugin) in my folders makes things hard to manage as well.

digitaldog · December 25, 2013

I'm not about to go into preferences and change how to open the file format each time I want to switch it.

</blockquote>

You don't have to! I told you already you can create as many presets for this as you want. For whatever silly reason you must have the rendered image set for TIFF and PSD, YOU CAN DO THIS.

Besides, sometimes you think a flat TIF is all you need, and realize you make further edits and layers, so I saved them in PSD.

</blockquote>

I'm starting to think you have a reading or retention issue. I told you that TIFF can be flat or contain layers. Same with PSD. What's your problem with that? Make a TIFF. Open without a layer. Decide you want a layer. Save it. It's STILL A TIFF. You can either (flat or then layers)!

Not only that you don't have to import anything UNTIL you want to add to the database....

</blockquote>

What?

You lost me with "it has no idea on previous or next folder"

</blockquote>

Browsers just show you what's in the folder you are peeking into at that moment. They are not database! I thought that was clear.

For the last time, can you explain, step by step the process you use which provides a behavior you say results in: You can't even make adjustments and save the file and find it unless you Sync the folder every time?

philfx · December 26, 2013

You don't have to! I told you already you can create as many presets for this as you want. For whatever silly reason you must have the rendered image set for TIFF and PSD, YOU CAN DO THIS.

</blockquote>

Please explain how you can have LR EditIn a TIF file(with TIF being the preference format to EditIN) to PShop, and then save THAT file in PShop as a PSD, or PSB, etc, and have the file appear in LR WITHOUT Syncing the folder. This would be helpful information.

If it CANNOT. Please just say so, and state that "it can't do this". (You can further explain: That is why it is best to use TIF for layers as well as flat files. Or just say, Phil, you are WRONG, LR can save the file the way you explain, this is what you have to do....."Instructions/example here".

This is the way I understand communication, when the actual questions ARE addressed directly, rather than avoided with giving alternate methods.

digitaldog · December 26, 2013

Phil. You want to go from LR to photoshop and NOT have that file referenced in the catalog?

philfx · December 26, 2013

So a question with a question at this point. Is my question so ambiguous? It is not a matter of what I want to do. It is a matter of what LR can, or can not do.

The question is: Can LR EditIn a TIF file(with TIF being the preference format to EditIN) to PShop, and then save THAT file in PShop as a PSD, or PSB, etc, and have the file appear in LR WITHOUT Syncing the folder

</blockquote>

? Yes, or No?

Spearhead · December 26, 2013

Yes. I just did it. Took a RAW image, used Edit In (which is set for TIFF), did a Save as PSD and it's there in Lightroom. LR 5 and PS CC.

But it's not that difficult to download LR and test it yourself.

philfx · December 26, 2013

OK. Now we are getting somewhere. Some setting I have or even a error, that it doesn't work for me.

Or is it unique to PS CC and LR? I use CS5 and LR5.3

philfx · December 26, 2013

OK, just to give this a go for testing.... Opened up a LR catalog, Did some random edits to a RAW file(Canon 5Dm2) in LR5.3, EditIn Photoshop CS5, (As mentioned in the starts of my posts), created a second layer, Saved in PSD. File does not show up in LR.

This maybe a feature in LR in use with PS CC? or the RAW process versions have to be the same? (No reason there either).

Perhaps a setting I have overlooked? possible.

philfx · December 26, 2013

I edited the above post by adding "created a second layer", to be specific/clear.

pbalko · December 26, 2013

"Edit in" as a TIFF from LR5 to CC and CS5, then save as PSD, the PSDs did not appear in my library, although the TIFF files did, with and without "Stack with original" checked in preferences.

Might should mention, the subsequent TIFF files created upon transfer did not show my PS edits as I only saved the edits as PSD.

EDIT: Now it just worked in CC. Edit as TIFF, save as PSD, PSD appears in library. Let me try CS5 again.

Spearhead · December 26, 2013

Mine saved PSD despite sending out as TIFF, as I said above. No idea what settings might apply or if versions affect this.

philfx · December 26, 2013

Jeff, your LR behavior is even more strange, as it is defaulting to a format OTHER than what you initially launched.

Perhaps a "default, save as PSD"? if there is such a preference in PS CC?

pbalko · December 26, 2013

Y'know, when I edit in CC the file goes right to CC. When I edit in CS5 I get the dialogue box with the edit options and the only active option is "Edit a copy with Lightroom adjustments," and the TIFF file is generated in my library while I'm waiting for PS to open.

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PART 2 to Lightroom seems too intrusive, suggestions?

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