Untitled Photography by Henri Brassai: His Secret Paris - Weekly Discussion #19

wogears · March 30, 2014

There's a kind of directness about Brassai that I've always admired. Even when he's being (or playing the role of) a voyeur, there's nothing slimy or prurient about the resulting images. Even the one with the half-dozen nude women and their "employer"(?) seems to be saying, "Yeah, this is what I saw. No big deal."

jimadams · March 30, 2014

I love his work in general. He inspired generations of people by his love of the city and its light, at daytime of at night.

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Anders, for once we agree about something.

aplumpton · March 30, 2014

Great cities and notable smaller ones are special when we can identify their cultural specificity. I think it was the Nobel economist of MIT, R.M. Solow, who said "Every place must identify its strongest, most distinctive features and develop them or run the risk of being all things to all persons, and nothing special to any."

Photographers like Brassai, whether instinctively or intentionally, knew how to depict the specific nature of life in Paris and its urban landscapes. He was Paris and Paris was him.

Landrum Kelly · March 31, 2014

I just Googled "Top Ten Jerks on Photo.net."

Oh, my goodness! There is such a list, and I'm on it!

I'm not in the top three, though.

--Lannie

AJHingel · March 31, 2014

It might be relevant, when discussing Brassaï, to mention, that his photos of the working class in Paris, was not only picturesque and romantic. They were also political, like most of the work of his fellow artists of the time with <a href="http://data0.eklablog.com/passiondartistesenbleu/mod_article391686_1.jpg">Picasso </a>(Member of the Communist Party until he died in 1973) the most prominent. Solidarity with the poor and exploited. Solidarity with the unemployed, like this photo of Brassaï of <a href="http://www.histoire-image.org/photo/fullscreen/den29_brassai_001z.jpg">unemployed at the central wholesale market in Paris, Les Halles</a>.

Most workers have since left the centre of Paris, forced out by skyrocketing housing prices and disappearing factory jobs, but the city has socialist majority as it has been confirmed at the latest municipal elections just yesterday, despite the country moving towards the right.

Norma Desmond · March 31, 2014

I recently discovered that Brassai was also quite an intellect. I was reading in an Aperture magazine that he had a love for Proust and even wrote a book Proust in the Power of Photography. In the book, Brassai cites this quote:

"Pleasures are like photos, those taken in the beloved's presence, no more than negatives, to be developed later once you are at home having regained the use of that interior darkroom, access to which is 'condemned' as long as you are seeing other people."

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It's an interesting take on his perspective on the difference between being in the moment, on the one hand, and the "developed" moment, on the other.

It may be that, in Brassai, we experience the instincts of a fine photographer and also the ability of that same photographer to develop his photos, not only in the technical sense in which photos are developed in a darkroom but in the qualitative sense in which photos get developed beyond and outside their moments.

Les makes an important point about Brassai's brand of voyeurism. Maybe what some of his photos show is an intelligent (and self aware) sort of voyeurism. IMO, it might not actually deny the slimy or prurient (at least I don't think it does), but rather it accepts it without much judgment and finds in it a value (visual, descriptive, humanist) that isn't often acknowledged.

Allen Herbert · March 31, 2014

Touchy and over sentitive are the words which come to mind.

Have some respect for,the time and effort Fred has put into..... the most thrilling, interesting, posts about the actual Art of photography. Yes, thrilling is the correct word.. Plenty of gear threads but this is the only one abour the Art of our photography.

Do not kill it with silly emotional bickering.....because that is what will happen.

For me, my eyes have been opened from my silly understanding.

There are many who are reading this thread, who do not post, but are taking real value from it.

Have some respect for them.

Allen Herbert · March 31, 2014

I think you have to look at the full portfolio of a Art photographer to understand their vision and maybe some pointers to send you in the right direction...

AJHingel · March 31, 2014

I agree Allen, most of the artist in Paris during the heydays of Paris as the center of the world in artistic terms, were active in many artistic fields because of their numerous friendships, but also because of need. Few could survive by just painting, writing poems or theatre plays and, at that time, even less so by shooting photos in the streets. They were all forced to be "polyvalent" able to work in many fields. Brassaï drew during the first years after having arrive in the city like <a href="http://www.photoeye.com/auctions/img/2662/brassai_drw3.jpg">this drawing</a>, <a href="http://www.klinebooks.com/kline/images/items/14424.jpg">or this</a>, and painted, before seriously taking up photography after he had bought his first Voigtländer camera and started shooting graffiti for his surrealistic friends.

aplumpton · April 2, 2014

Not having read much from Brassai I cannot be sure of his intentions and will put my neck out, but I question Les's possible characterisation of Brassai as a voyeur, although it may seem to many from his work that voyeurism was an intent. I think instead of him as an artist and as such someone who was simply fascinated by the life in his community. Many of his artist friends were also poor and did not dwell in upscale areas of the city. As an artist, the subject matter has to inspire. In that sense, it is hard for me to imagine Picasso or Brassai or Man Ray photographing or painting the bourgeosie, at least in the early or middle days of their careers.

Landrum Kelly · April 2, 2014

It's a shame that the French word voyeur has been expropriated into English either for something like a fetish or else for a type of pathological compulsion to peep at others against their wills. As I understand it (and I am certainly no French scholar), the word in French simply refers to one who looks or is looking. In that sense we are all voyeurs, and especially in our roles as photographers.

I certainly don't see Brassai as looking for the sake of some cheap titillating thrill. These are quite profound views of the world and the human condition that he has given us.

Jim, thanks for the topic.

--Lannie

Norma Desmond · April 2, 2014

"… we photographers are nothing but a pack of crooks, thieves and voyeurs. We are to be found everywhere we are not wanted; we betray secrets that were never entrusted to us; we spy shamelessly on things that are not our business; and end up the hoarders of a vast quantity of stolen goods." —Brassai

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AJHingel · April 2, 2014

Great Fred !

It seems that Man Ray followed up with:

If I’d had the nerve, I’d have become a thief or a gangster, but since I didn’t, I became a photographer.

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aplumpton · April 2, 2014

Voyeurisme moderne. ,,Qualification donnée au monde moderne qui se complaît dans la représentation graphique dans toutes ses formes (...) et donne ainsi priorité à l'expression imagée sur l'expression écrite, qui fait plus appel à l'impression superficielle passive et dépersonnalisante, qu'à la réflexion profonde et active`` (Lafon 1969).

This definition in French of the word voyeurism describes graphical representation (thus photography among others) and the desire of the practitioner ("voyeur") as preferring images to written expression, often privileging superficial and passive regards to more profound and active reflections on a subject.

Is that what Brassai was refering to, or was it to the British, English speaking Commonwealth and North American appropriation of the term?

Norma Desmond · April 2, 2014

Arthur, Brassai included in his statement thieves and crooks and talked about spying shamelessly. I sense he was not limiting it to the original French meaning and, like so many artists, was aware of both the profound and the profane, both the lofty reaches of art and the depths it and the humans making it and those who are its subjects could sometimes plunge. He seems to have seen himself as an artist, and certainly I do, but also as a man with very human traits and foibles, something I think a lot of artists are in touch with. My take is that he's not an artist instead of a voyeur but rather an artist in addition to one, and maybe he doesn't even separate the two. I say that as a compliment and don't use voyeur pejoratively. I use it descriptively, about myself and about many photographers. Artists tend to like to find, explore, and uncover secrets and they often engage intimately (even if sometimes secretively) with others who are their subjects. Voyeur, in all its usages, seems apt. It can be descriptively used to conjure the image of a common peeping tom while doing that in order also to transcend that image. It's a colorful term and seems to me to fit in all its meanings and connotations.

aplumpton · April 2, 2014

Yes, I can agree with that, Fred. Especially that voyeurism and artistic approach often go together. I don't care much for the way voyeur is often interpreted in my region but I am quite happy and not at all self conscious in considering myself to be a voyeur in the original sense of the word, even defined as one who steals (a thief) something from another person when invading their space and including them or private property into my images. Perhaps Brassai was referring to his invasion of the space of others. As a keen photographer, I like the French description of the photographer as a "hunter of images" ("Chasseur d'Images" is a popular French photo journal), as this is what I often do, as well as being very curious about my subjects.

Landrum Kelly · April 2, 2014

Voyeur, in all its usages, seems apt.

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Maybe, save in the clinical sense: I still see a possible (even likely) difference between deliberate and careful social "peeping," on the one hand, and the "compulsive peeping" that perhaps presupposes a kind of psychological pathology, on the other. The latter would seem perhaps to be the other side, that is, of compulsive exhibitionism.

I differentiate, that is, between deliberate peeping and compulsive peeping, which I presume (not being a psychologist) to refer to a kind of behavior that seems to be beyond (or almost beyond) someone's self-control. Perhaps my difficulties here have to do with an inadequate understanding of the clinical definitions, which suggest to me a kind of psychopathology.

I offer these comments advisedly, since I am in over my head on the formal psychological connotations of such terms--especially as they seem to refer to sociopaths or to manifestations of genuine psychopathology.

--Lannie

Landrum Kelly · April 2, 2014

Voyeurism has also been linked with <a title="Obsessive-compulsive disorder" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsessive-compulsive_disorder">obsessive-compulsive disorder</a> (OCD). When treated by the same approach as OCD, voyeuristic behaviors significantly decrease.<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyeurism#cite_note-pmid10097802-16">[16] </a>(Wikipedia)

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I would presume that Brassai and many photographers would not fall within this category; that is, they would not (I think) be seen to be suffering from a kind of OCD simply by virtue of their sometimes intrusive patterns of photography.

--Lannie

Landrum Kelly · April 2, 2014

Compulsions become clinically significant when a person feels driven to perform them in response to an obsession, or according to rules that must be applied rigidly, and when the person consequently feels or causes significant distress. Therefore, while many people who do not suffer from OCD may perform actions often associated with OCD (such as ordering items in a pantry by height), the distinction with clinically significant OCD lies in the fact that the person who suffers from OCD must perform these actions, otherwise they will experience significant psychological distress. (Wikipedia)

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The interesting part of the above passage to me is this: "the distinction with clinically significant OCD lies in the fact that the person who suffers from OCD must perform these actions. . . ."

I presume, that is, that most photographers who admit to voyeuristic tendencies are not referring to a pattern of activity which they "must" do, rather to a pattern of actions or behaviors which they choose to engage in.

Then again, I have been wrong before, and perhaps the distinction between choice and compulsion can be a fine line. I am yet reminded of Gilbert Ryle's saying that "philosophers typically make too few distinctions rather than too many." (The quote is approximate and probably comes from Concept of Mind, which I last seriously delved into back around 1972--but I think that my citation here is still true to Ryle's intent.)

In any case, when it comes to the distinction between that which one feels internally "compelled" to do, on the one hand, and that which one "freely" does, on the other, the conceptual distinction may yet be useful, even if the boundary between the two types of actions or behaviors may be blurred in reality.

I am not trying to contradict you, Fred; rather I am simply offering a caveat where the usage of such terms as "voyeur" is concerned.

--Lannie

Norma Desmond · April 2, 2014

I didn't have in mind a clinical definition of voyeurism and wasn't addressing whether I thought it was compulsive or not, which I don't think Brassai addressed either. My line of thinking was about how some of the traits of voyeurism (not all of them) apply to photography, photographers, and other artists. What I was thinking about was how some of our behaviors influence and are influenced by making photos and about what might show up in the photos.

In terms of Brassai, I find his own language interesting in describing himself and in shedding some light on both his process and his photos. His photos actually appear less voyeuristic to me than those of others but I can relate very much to what he's saying. I find that discovering night haunts in the city, which I've been doing for as long as I can remember, does bring out certain darker sides both of humanity and of me. That doesn't necessarily need to show up as seediness, and I don't associate Brassai's work with "seediness" at all. But he obviously was dealing with some feelings of shame, as I do at times, and putting that into one's work can pay off in all sorts of ways, even if it isn't necessarily shame that shows up in the photos. All kinds of self awareness and being in touch with different sides of oneself can be an artist's inspiration.

He seemed honest about his role as photographer and artist and seemed to be recognizing the art pedestal while also declaring himself mortal and flawed and real. That seems like an important combination to me, as I said, the profound joined with the profane or the lofty with the more pedestrian. It seems Brassai's sense of his own voyeurism led him to make some quite intimate photos of Paris at night, and led him to be able to show some secrets.

Landrum Kelly · April 2, 2014

Thanks, Fred. I fully agree and find your remarks above (especially those repeating utterances of Brassai himself) to be very useful. I am glad that you took the time to find them and post them.

My own extensive postings above in three parts are actually better seen as qualifiers to my own quote starting several postings earlier: "a type of pathological compulsion to peep at others against their wills."

Brassai seems to fit the qualifier of possibly capturing his subjects "against their wills" (or at least without their express knowledge or consent), but not necessarily "compulsively"--with due allowance for the fact that all creative pursuits arguably have a compulsive component to them, though again not in a clinical sense. That is no doubt a separate issue--interesting but not germane to talking about Brassai. Thus do I offer my qualifiers.

The term "voyeur" as often used in Anglo-American culture nonetheless rankles at times, given its popular association with something at least faintly sick. Is it ethical to so capture persons "on the sly"? It can be, but it does not thereby fall to a level of a psychopathology--although one may argue that sometimes it may (I repeat "may") be even "worse" (qua "wrong"). I have no general rule as to when it has crossed the line into the realm of the unethical. This is why, I think, that Brassai's characterization of his own activity as "theft" is so interesting.

--Lannie

GBarrington · April 3, 2014

It is very cinematic. There is almost a Film Noir feel to the photos, but of course many of these photos predate the world's awareness of Film Noir as a style. This may have even been the impetus for that style. I don't know, I am speculating on that. For me, this work implies that Brassai has full knowledge and acceptance of his subject's flaws. I don't know if that means he approves of their flaws, or loves them because of their flaws. Certainly not all of the photos appear to be the sort of shot we associate with love! But I do think he has come accept that he can do nothing about their flaws, and those flaws do not lessen the value of his subjects to him.

Landrum Kelly · April 3, 2014

Brassai has full knowledge and acceptance of his subject's flaws. I don't know if that means he approves of their flaws, or loves them because of their flaws. Certainly not all of the photos appear to be the sort of shot we associate with love! But I do think he has come accept that he can do nothing about their flaws, and those flaws do not lessen the value of his subjects to him.

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Glenn, I am not all that familiar with Brassai's work except as found in Paris by Night, but I see nothing that impels me to conclude that Brassai made a negative judgment of the people whom he photographed. You use the word flaw five times in your brief post.

I am not sure that he saw his subjects as "flawed" at all.

--Lannie

Norma Desmond · April 3, 2014

The secrets and clues may lie in the photos, not only the content but the way that content is shot and presented. What I see is a lack of caricature and a lack of sympathy in favor of empathy. I don't see pathetic faces or gestures or poses.

<a href="http://www.americansuburbx.com/wp-content/gallery/brassai/5532448040_f6512870b9_b-custom.jpg">THIS PHOTO</a> suggests to me the normalization and openness, the loveliness, of something that at the time would more often have remained hidden, and still does to this day in many quarters. Not just because it is a photo of two men dancing, but because of the suggestion of movement and of their being in the spotlight among other couples.

[Caution: NUDITY] <a href="http://www.americansuburbx.com/wp-content/gallery/brassai/16.jpg">THIS PHOTO</a> shows a woman with confidence and perhaps she even retains a bit of modesty by crossing her legs. She is being seen, IMO, more than simply being looked at. She isn't treated with moodiness or even wonder. She doesn't seem presented as a sex object.

<a href="http://www.americansuburbx.com/wp-content/gallery/brassai/brassai-custom-2.jpg">THIS PHOTO</a> simply feels truthful. I don't get a sense of judgment. I get the mood of the street, the intensity and subtleties of nighttime light, and body language that could be a pose whether it is intentional or not.

<a href="http://www.americansuburbx.com/wp-content/gallery/brassai/night-ss10.jpg">THIS PHOTO</a> is one of the few that gives me a more or less film noir feel. Most of the others seem nocturnal, but lack the stylishness, obviousness and brooding-ness of so much film noir. And, IMO, film noir often offers a kind of cynicism in its human portrayals (the femme fatale, the double-crossing, the back stabbing) that I don't find in Brassai.

AJHingel · April 3, 2014

The use of the word "flaws" cannot be justified if one refers to Brassaï's attitude to his subjects: the prostitutes, the homosexuels, the alchoholics in the bars. According to his own saying, he wanted to shoot the "essence" of Paris at night as he discovered it together with his artist friends like Henry Miller and the poet Jacque Prévert who wrote

"Life is after all a very strange thing... for the one that knows how to see between midnight three o'clock in the morning"

"La vie est tout de même une chose bien curieuse... pour qui sait observer entre minuit et trois heures du matin."

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He published in 1932 "Paris de nuit" the year after it had published his photos of the big yearly ball of mainly gay men and women in the Magic City ballroom where you today find the Bulgarian Embassy (188 Rue de l'Université)! Both publication became immediately major successes - no scandals !

The "flaws" were there and known by all: prostitution was no happy life. Venereal diseases and exploitation by pimps were widespread especially among the non-registered prostitutes (majority of the thousands active in the city) and the victims of alcoholism filled the bars. Absinthe, which had been outlawed some years before Barraï's night tours in the city was still to be found under the counters. It has just recently become legal again. Not much romanticism, but an much "amour" to quote Prévert yet another time:

"It is all very simple, love" - "C'est tellement simple, l'amour".

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Untitled Photography by Henri Brassai: His Secret Paris - Weekly Discussion #19

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