Nikon Df

[BelaMolnar]

<p>My Nikon Df set-up and my idea of an additional grip. Nikkor 18/4 AI, 20/4 AI, 28-50/3.5 AI, 75-150/3.5 Zoom AI "E", 200/4 AI and SB-400. And many more AI lenses in the lens cabinet.</p><div></div>

[BelaMolnar]

<p>Dfs. "Grip".</p><div></div>

[JDMvW]

<p>I would not today be an apostate Nikonian if this had been available when I went digital.</p>

<p>I am sooo tempted, but I am now heavily invested elsewhere.</p>

<p>Of course, I still shoot my non-AI lenses (and a few newer ones) on film Nikon bodies, AF and manual focus, so some part of me has not totally renounced the 'cause'.</p>

<p>That grip looks suspiciously familiar to a Canon grip user. ;)</p>

[ShunCheung]

<p>Bela, to me, the #1 drawback for the Df is the lack of a proper grip, not for vertical but for horizontal. As the way it is, the tiny grip on the Df is similar to the one on the F3. You are pinching it with your finger tips. That is very uncomfortable and makes it difficult to use heavy lenses with the Df.</p>

<p>Concerning your add-on vertical grip, where do you put the shutter release and how does that connect to the electronics in the camera? How about main and sub-command dials on that grip?</p>

[Dieter Schaefer]

<p>Sold my 20/4 AI when I realized how much it vignettes on an FX camera. A lot sharper in the corners up to f/5.6 though than the "current" 20/2.8 AF-D lens - so the choice is either blurry or dark.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>#1 drawback for the Df is the lack of a proper grip</p>

</blockquote>

<p>My main issue as well - what good is a camera that one can't hold comfortably. I added the MD-4 to the F3 for exactly that reason - I needed a proper grip to hold the camera with, not because I needed 6fps at the time.<br /> That add-on grip solves nothing - except make the camera easier to hold in portrait orientation. But then, how do I get to the shutter release? And how do I adjust anything?<br /> The retro Df is the biggest step backwards Nikon has done since they introduced the first DSLR (might well be the biggest step backwards since they came out with their first DSLR). Today's technology inside a yesterday's body -which transports the whole experience back 35 years. To each its own I guess.</p>

[BelaMolnar]

<p>One of the many reason I bought the Df was, I like manual control, manual focusing and the use of the big collection of my NON AI and AI, AI-S lenses, many of them as sharp as the brand new AF plastic equivalent, and smaller, some of them even sharper then the new versions. Also, I can get a small shoulder bag, from focal length 14mm up to 300mm<em> ( Nikon 300mm f/4.5 ED, AI-S the smallest and shortest 300mm nikon</em>) and walk around comfortable, not have to cary the big and heavy backpack. Then the next is, the image quality and high ISO quality is slightly better then my D4 or the D3s. Out of this 3 camera body, I like the best, the D3s and the Df. I don't like the D4 because, the mixed memory card configuration. I'm unhappy with the Df bottom loading memory card placement, other one, the almost impossibility of an additional extended grip. But, I can live with it. If a Nikon pro extended battery grip available for the Df, I would sell my D4 and keep the D3s and would buy one more of the Df.<br /> Shun. I agree with you, it is very uncomfortable to hold the camera with bigger zoom lenses. I would never use any of the big zooms on the Df. Only primes, like 14, 18, 20, 50mm, a small 85, a 105/2.5 and the lovely 200/f4 AI-S, max.<br>

Dieter. I have the 20/3.5 and the 20/4 AI. I like this little jewel very much. The 3.5 a little better then the 4, but not to mach and, the quality of images, I like them. A little bet of corner softness never bothering me. I don't using them for architecture, and landscape it not shown to much. Bur they are so small I can cary them in any of my packets. If I need a serious shoot, for big enlargement, I using my 17-35/2.8 super sharp lens anyway.</p>

[bebu_lamar]

<p>May be it's only me but I found that the F3 is easier to hold without the MD-4 than with the MD-4. Although the F3 is fine either way. It's the FM that I can't hold it with the MD-12. The Df doesn't hold as well as the F3 but it's fine and a bigger grip or the battery grip would help but rather would be worse. The problem with the Df is that being a digital camera it's too thick front to back although it's not as thick as other DSLRs. </p>

[dan_brown4]

I've had my Df for a good while now, and totally love that camera. Super glad I bought it.

 

For the sake of full disclosure, I kept my D800 for macro stuff I do at work, where the extra resolution helps.

[Landrum Kelly]

 

 

<blockquote>

<p>I've had my Df for a good while now, and totally love that camera. Super glad I bought it.<br>

For the sake of full disclosure, I kept my D800 for macro stuff I do at work, where the extra resolution helps.</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>That sounds like a very good combo to me. The Df would satisfy my lust for a low-light camera--and I don't shoot long, heavy lenses in the dark.</p>

<p>--Lannie</p>

 

[Albins images]

OK, I am still lusting after the Df. I could work with the F3

with and without the MD4. Where admittedly a drive + a

grip are so much easier when holding a flash in the left

hand.. But yes, that's probably not 'pure photography'

anymore..

 

 

Talking about that.. Recently, working with a D800 and the

humble 50/2.0 felt very 'pure' indeed. I don't NEED a Df.. I

WANT one..

[Wouter Willemse]

<p>Personally, I so far have not had any camera where I feel a need for an additional grip, even when working with the 80-200 f/2.8 and 300 f/4, I am fine without and have no need or want for the additional bulk.<br>

But the only camera which I used with a grip where I much appreciated it was an EOS350D - a camera which I otherwise find too small with too small a handgrip by default. And from the looks of it, the Df suffers the same issue. Disclosure: I have not yet seen a Df in the wild; in my part of the world it's still too rare an animal. My lusting for the Df has diminished anyway - the idea of having the controls of a classic F/F2/F3 and a modern Dxxx wrapped in one (effectively double controls with a front wheel that looks unusable) isn't exactly convincing me. The handgrip is a secondary point that does drive me away from wanting a Df.</p>

<p>I don't use my F3 with lenses larger than a 105 f/2.5, but I'm not so much pincing the grip. There is a lot more space between grip and lensmount on a F3, it seems, so I just wrap my hand different than I do with the cameras with a proper front handgrip. Ergonomically, the F3 works for me with the small primes. Not too convinced it will with larger lenses.</p>

<p>Bela, in practical use, how much of a nuisance is the non-AI lever you need to flip up? The Non-AI compatibility is the one major advantage I see for old-lens-users, but the small flip-up thing does look kind of fiddly to me.</p>

[dan_brown4]

<p>D<em>f</em> Monochrome, yeah, that's the ticket :D</p>

[bebu_lamar]

<p>I don't want the grip on the Df. It's fine as is. If it's thinner then it would be better. <br>

The grip started out its life as a place to put battery and motor not as something to grip on.</p>

[Spearhead]

<p>Why does it matter how it started? </p>

[ShunCheung]

<blockquote>

<p>The grip started out its life as a place to put battery and motor not as something to grip on.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Sorry, that is not true at all. Take a look at the V3's add-on grip: http://d6d2h4gfvy8t8.cloudfront.net/17706650-lg.jpg</p>

<p>Nikon does not store any battery inside the grip for the V3. It simply makes the camera more comfortable to hold, and there is room for a proper sub-command dial, instead of the vertical one on the Df (and the plain V3) that is stiff to turn.</p>

<p>In 2012, Nikon put a proper grip on the V2. In 2014, the grip is an optional add on for the V3 (IMO, a step backward in the design, but at least the option is available). Somehow in the year in between, the Df comes without any grip option in 2013.</p>

[bebu_lamar]

<p>You're right Shun but I meant the older cameras. </p>

[BelaMolnar]

<p>Yes, BeBU. All of my older cameras has a motor drive or winder attached to it, just to get a more solid feel and "grip". Most of the time, I hardly ever used to wind, drive the camera with the motor drive. In travel, I stored the AA batteries there for my flash light,( motor OFF all the time, and hand winding) exception, the most used camera at travel, in the film era, the Nikon FA. You know why. And later on, the F90x, for longer power with the battery grip.</p>

[simon_crofts]

<p>I found the handling of the DF superb so far. It's a huge improvement on my D700, this camera is really a game changer and the best thing Nikon (or I guess anyone else) have done so far. Of course there are a few little improvements that can be made here and there, but it's a huge step forward.<br>

<br />The small grip isn't a problem - certainly with prime lenses, it just requires holding the camera in a slightly different way, one's fingers soon adjust. Because the camera's lighter than a D700, it's much easier to hold over long periods. The much better interface on the DF also means it's easier on the fingers to use (and all round a faster camera than the D700, with just the odd qualification). And waaay easier to use than my old D2x.</p>

<p>My wife was trying to decide between the DF and a D800, but having used the DF for a bit, we just totally fell in love with the camera so we just ordered a second one. Looking again at the D800 this afternoon, it was the right decision. Looking forward to the second body coming so we don't have to compete for this one.</p>

 

[simon_crofts]

<p>- BTW I just used the DF to photograph a ballet performance in extreme low light, and was surprised that the AF was a lot more effective than on the D700. I had thought this would be a weak point on the DF. No doubt it's not as sensitive as the D4, but it was focussing crisply and quickly where my D700 would be hunting and struggling.</p>

<p>Generally, delighted with the camera, can barely suppress my exceitement (as you can probably tell!)</p>

[Andrew Garrard]

<p>I promise not to hijack this Df thread so much. But the concept of putting a vertical grip on a Df does seem a little odd to me. My couple of brief experiences handling a Df have suggested that it seems relatively comfortable (in as much as any camera with a minimal grip is comfortable) when used with a small lens, partly because it helps if the whole system is light. Incidentally, the slightly squashed fingers caused by the small grip (wrist at a diagonal from below the camera, not as straight on as with a conventional current DSLR) does at least align them slightly better for the vertical front dial than I had initially worried about - but this hand position kind of relies on being able to put the ball of the hand under the bottom of the grip, for which a vertical grip might get in the way. The primary reason I'm not tempted to get a Df is that my idea of a "small lens" is a 14-24; if I spent all my time walking around with a 20 f/4, I'd probably be more enthusiastic - but that's why an X100s appeals to me more. Ironically, for small lenses, I think that means the Df's form factor would work better for a DX camera - which presumably is also Fuji's opinion. (This week's Amateur Photographer actually compares them for retro experience, but I've not read it yet.)<br />

<br />

Does the battery compartment door come off the Df? Does the grip have an integrated SD card? I'm trying to work out whether you need to take the grip off to retrieve images (Eye-Fi aside).<br />

<br />

Other third-party grips for cameras that aren't designed for them communicate via a remote shutter release cable connection (and a very short cable). I'm not sure whether that's what's suggested here.</p>

[ShunCheung]

<p>Since I am preparing the Df review for photo.net, I have all sorts of images of it and captured with one in my portfolio: <a href="/photodb/folder?folder_id=1067109">http://www.photo.net/photodb/folder?folder_id=1067109</a></p>

<p>The Df's battery compartment door comes off very easily. If you open it and push it a little further towards the center of the camera, it snaps right off. And you can snap it back on easily. I am a bit surprised that Nikon doesn't attach it permanently to the camera, but as long as you don't lose the door, it is not a big deal. In case you do lose it, there is a latch to hold the battery in. So the camera can continue to function until your get a replacement door.</p>

<p>I have checked a few other recent Nikon DSLRs, such as the D7100. They have snap-on battery compartment doors as well, but theirs don't come off as easily.</p>

<P>

<IMG SRC="http://d6d2h4gfvy8t8.cloudfront.net/17712942-md.jpg">

</P>

<p>As far as an add-on grip goes, take a look at the V3: <a href="/nikon-camera-forum/00cRlf">http://www.photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00cRlf</a><br>

Once you add a grip, the position of your right hand changes and you need move the shutter release to a more forward position. That is why the V3's add-on grip has its own shutter release, but that is possible because the V3 has built-in electronic connection with the grip. You can add a "dumb" grip on the Df, but without a new shutter release button in a forward position, it will only be even more unconfortable to use because you need to twist your index finger backward to reach the original shutter release button on the Df. Therefore, any third-party add-on grip for the Df is essentially a non-starter.</p>

[nikofile]

<p>From reading this thread it seems I would need a grip to use it with Nikon pro zoom lenses. Is that right? I am going to see what is available. I would really like to replace my D600, which I have been using with a 70-200. I don't need high-res for this unit, although I have been considering a second D800E. I also don't really need to shoot portrait style with the camera.</p>

[ShunCheung]

<p>I have used the Df with huge super teles quite a bit. In that case the weight of the lens is a non-issue (at least no specific issue related to the Df) since that weight is supported by a heavy tripod. If you hand hold a heavy zoom such as 70-200mm/f2.8 on the Df, typically you should use the palm of your left hand to support the weight of the zoom through the lens barrel from below, so that is also not a major issue. However, if you let go your left hand and only use your right hand to support everything, on any camera with a full grip, your entire right hand would be holding everything through the grip. On the Df, you will be holding all that weight with the finger tips of your right hand due to that tiny, F3-style grip on the Df. Whether that is "comfortable" is entirely up to you to decide. While I don't like it that way, it is your individual opinion that really matters. I am merely pointing this out for those who are interested in the Df to check that out for themselves.</p>

<p>Nikon does not provide any accessory grip for the Df. If some third party wants to make one, IMO they need to find a way to add a shutter release on it, perhaps a sub-command dial also. How to connect those electronically to the Df body will be a technical challenge.</p>

<p>Additionally, whether there is a sufficient market for some third-party to make a grip for the Df and be profitable is another issue. My expectation is that the market for the Df is quite narrow, and a lot of those who do buy one prefer it to be small. Adding a grip defeats that purpose.</p>

[nikofile]

<blockquote>

<p>Additionally, whether there is a sufficient market for some third-party to make a grip for the Df and be profitable is another issue. My expectation is that the market for the Df is quite narrow, and a lot of those who do buy one prefer it to be small. Adding a grip defeats that purpose.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I'm sure most people are looking at the small size. I am looking for the sensor. I can live with the D600. The images are excellent, and everything else about the camera is satisfactory. The images do require a bit more processing attention. But you can get spoiled with a D800E, and I am. It's almost just make the desired ratio crop and save it. I bet the Df and D4 are the same, and they would give me a balance in what I can do.<br>

I do occasionally have the camera hanging from my right hand, and I like the 70-200 on the lower resolution camera. A grip might be nice. Or a D4 at half price.</p>

[Andrew Garrard]

<p>Roy: There are two problems with the Df and hand-holding big lenses. They come down to what your hands need to be doing; with a big lens (which I start to define as a 70-200), your left hand is holding the lens, often some distance forward of the body, in order to be balanced. It's just about possible, but inadvisable (80-200 without a tripod collar notwithstanding), to hold a 70-200 using the camera body, freeing up your left hand; it's less possible with a 150-500 Sigma, and absolutely impossible with, say, a 200 f/2, which is otherwise completely suitable for hand-holding. With these lenses, the right hand is more involved in steering the camera than supporting it.<br />

<br />

With, say, a D800, you can change shutter speed and aperture without taking your right hand off the grip, because the dials are under your thumb and middle finger respectively. You can also change exposure mode and exposure compensation just by moving the index finger. In easy-ISO mode, you can also change ISO; you can't in manual mode, but auto-ISO combined with exposure compensation gets you to the same place in manual mode, and that's how I typically shoot. Things you can't change on a D800 without moving your hand include white balance (I usually shoot raw, and don't care much), ISO in manual mode (this is annoying, but the auto-ISO + EC is a work-around) and AF mode (but using AF-On helps).<br />

<br />

With a Df, both ISO <i>and</i> exposure compensation are on the top left of the camera, and require multiple fingers to change. You can't do this with your left hand on a lens and your right hand on a grip. The shutter speed dial and mode dial aren't much better, though at least they're on the right side of the camera (and you can ignore shutter speed if you like, using the conventional dial). It's also very difficult to have a finger riding on the shutter release while you adjust shutter speed. If you change all the camera's settings, raise it to the eye, and shoot, that's all no problem. If your shooting style is to have the camera to your eye and await the perfect moment, adjusting the exposure settings as needed... it's a problem. I almost always shoot in the latter style. With a Df, you'd have to do what I had to do before learning to love auto-ISO with my D700: wedge the camera between my legs whenever I wanted to adjust ISO.<br />

<br />

So much for a 70-200. A somewhat smaller lens, like the 14-24, can be held on a D800 perfectly well just using the camera grip - it has no tripod collar. You can hold the camera and lens with your right hand, even with the finder against your eye, and reach around the camera with your left hand to reach the controls top left. This isn't as stable, but at least you're not dropping it. But the problem with a Df is that the much smaller grip makes supporting the camera and a medium-sized lens much less comfortable than with a D800. Your fingers are already squashed by the reduced grip; this isn't uncomfortable so long as there's no torque on them, but if the lens is trying to tip the camera forward, it's not nice.<br />

<br />

This leaves small lenses. A Df feels perfectly comfortable with a 50mm f/1.8, or one of the smallish primes. I have no objection to using a camera in this way, except that an X100s gets you a very similar experience in a smaller body with an integrated ND filter and leaf shutter, for a lot less money.<br />

<br />

Oh, and it also leaves shooting on a tripod. Which is fine, but why worry about making the Df so lightweight and capable of low-light shooting if you're carrying a tripod around anyway?<br />

<br />

All this is from my experience in endless analysis of the control layout, combined with a couple of brief sessions persuading myself a) I didn't really want one, and b) I <i>really</i> didn't want one, partly because most of my lenses are on the pudgy side. It's therefore personal opinion, though I claim my handling concerns are fairly dispassionate. <i>If</i> you like to set up the camera before raising it to the eye, street shooter style, or <i>if</i> you only ever use fairly small Nikkors, the Df may be the camera for you. It appears to take very nice images and some people like that you don't need the meter working to adjust the settings.<br />

<br />

I'm not going to be the one to say you can't use the Df with big lenses. For all I've been confused by the Df - and I've not been the only one - I don't actually have some reason to hate it. But I do suggest you try one in a store and make up your own mind, especially if you want to try this sort of combination. The grip of the FX Nikon bodies does have subtle differences, but none of the others are as far from each other as the Df is from the rest, and I don't think it's safe to assume that a comfortable combination on a D600 will be comfortable on a Df.<br />

<br />

I don't really know why Nikon didn't make more of an effort to avoid this problem, but my suspicion is that their design teams mostly work with small lenses and tripods. That's also the only explanation I have for the AF switch position, which is perfectly placed to be reached by the left thumb when holding an 85 f/1.4 on a D4s, and completely impossible to reach without a fing-longer (and cannot be mapped to any other buttons) with a big telephoto on a lighter camera.<br />

<br />

Ironically, if you could live with single stops for shutter speed, it ought to have been possible to use the other two dials to control aperture and ISO, making the Df the first Nikon that allowed proper control of all three while the left hand was occupied. I'd really have liked that, and might almost have been tempted by one. Unfortunately, you can't - ISO is the dial, and nothing else - there's no easy-ISO or easy-EC on the Df.<br />

<br />

There's a reason the Df isn't priced as much as a D4. The D700 was surprisingly close to a D3 in capabilities, but a D4 sensor does not make a D4. I'd really worry about getting a Df as a cheap D4 alternative - it's the exact opposite in handling style. If you just want a sensor that can shoot in the dark, I'd look closely at the 6D - the price gap between the 6D and D4 is enough that you can buy a lot of L lenses with the change...</p>