When Things Go Wrong

Landrum Kelly · September 13, 2013

Michael, I usually go downtown in this little burg to shoot buildings and such.

Shooting people can get complicated in a hurry--unless one asks permission in advance, but then that often ruins the potential shot.

I would still like to know what precisely was going through the minds of the people in the shots above. I have to conclude that the same shots in daytime might not have been viewed as nearly so threatening.

--Lannie

Brad_ · September 13, 2013

>>> Please feel free to offer your own observations.

OK...

>>> From the title, I was expecting something far more dramatic.

Same here. I see nothing out of the ordinary.

Yes, if you engage in sneaky, suspicious behavior, many people will object and try to understand why they are

(from their point of view) being targeted by a stranger, with unknown motivations, in such a manner. I don't find that surprising and can't imagine that not

happening in most neighborhoods. I'd do the same. Try and put yourself in their shoes. How would you feel?

>>> Michael, when I first started shooting, I really thought that I would not be noticed.

No matter how clever you think you are, people are VERY perceptive to others' suspicious behavior.

>>> I would still like to know what precisely was going through the minds of the people in the shots above.

Why not stick around and find out? The opportunity was there...

Landrum Kelly · September 13, 2013

Thanks, Brad. I knew that a thread like this would snag at least one snide and snarky hypocrite:

<a href="http://www.magcloud.com/browse/issue/382226">http://www.magcloud.com/browse/issue/382226</a>

<a href="http://www.citysnaps.net/blog/about-2/">http://www.citysnaps.net/blog/about-2/</a>

If we reveal ourselves fully on the streets, we rarely or never get the best shots.

Good work! You get the shots. Thank you for being sufficiently sneaky. I guess that that means that you somehow generally manage to avoid appearing suspicious--by typically remaining invisible to your subjects.

It can be done honorably, and you've done it.

I think.

--Lannie

Norma Desmond · September 13, 2013

"In addition, they have no real value apart from whatever value there might (or might not be) in discussing this and similar situations." [Emphasis added.]

Lannie, you made this statement and it stood out to me. It might be a key. If I had taken pictures which I really thought had no value, I'd question a lot about them and likely try to avoid taking such pics again, or at least I would try taking them in a very different way so as to get some value into them. That would be the best photographic discussion I could imagine. What could or would you do differently next time, photographically and behaviorally, in hopes of getting some pictures of value? I'd start by asking what about the scene was speaking to you or made you want to make a photograph of it?

Norma Desmond · September 13, 2013

Lannie, I just read your words to Brad. Something I think about is the difference between a photo that looks like it was taken by a stalker and a photo that looks like it was taken by someone unnoticed and unobtrusive. There are many different ways not to be noticed and not being noticed does not necessarily mean not being "part" of the street or street scene. And there are some "stalker" type photos that are effective, but many that are off.

To me, your photos here come off as if you were stalking a private moment or party and that you were out of the loop. They might have more value if you showed, visually in the photos, that there was consciousness or awareness of that separation rather than it just being there haphazardly. I think if there were some feeling about this scene that could have been translated into the photos, they might be of more value. As it is, it just feels like there was an opportunity but there was no apparent grasp on an approach to it. That grasp doesn't have to be fully thought through, especially when shooting. That grasp can happen instantaneously. It's usually very apparent when the grasp is just not there.

Landrum Kelly · September 13, 2013

After breaking the ice and getting a group photo, maybe see if they're okay with hanging around a few minutes and taking some unposed candids too.

</blockquote>

I think you're right, Lex. There is totally candid and then there is "They forgot I was there" candid. The latter is surely safer--and less intrusive and thus less likely to be perceived as threatening.

What can I say? I just happened on the scene and thought in that moment that this one might bear fruit: a tearful reunion or goodbye. Well, it bore fruit alright. Hopefully the consequences hurt no one.

Need I admit that I am not really a street photographer? I am better off shooting buildings, except when that draws fire, too, as it did at least once almost three years ago in the same little burg.

--Lannie

Landrum Kelly · September 13, 2013

What could or would you do differently next time, photographically and behaviorally, in hopes of getting some pictures of value? I'd start by asking what about the scene was speaking to you or made you want to make a photograph of it?

</blockquote>

Thanks, Fred. I tried (however ineptly) to address this in one of my comments above.

The bad call was trying the shoot in the first place. it had not been many months since I saw a tearful reunion between a father and son on a major thoroughfare in this same town (busier than Main Street). The mother had apparently set it up. I really regretted not getting that one. It would have been very poignant. That did affect my decision to quickly pick up the camera and start shooting.

</blockquote>

That (the tearful reunion) was a daytime scene that I just alluded to. I was hoping here for something more in the tradition of "A Soldier Returns from War." (I am reminded of a scene in the movie Broadcast News as I write this.)

One is a lot more likely to be perceived as "sneaky" or "suspicious" or "stalking" when shooting at night, I think--especially when shooting at night from a car. You would think that that would have occurred to me, but I had never tried it before, and here appeared to be a photo op that might bear fruit--and the camera was on the seat beside me. I had gone downtown to shoot buildings, not people. Shooting people--especially shooting strangers from the shadows--is a very different game, it would appear.

As it is, it just feels like there was an opportunity but there was no apparent grasp on an approach to it.

</blockquote>

You are absolutely right about that, Fred. Although I take a lot of shots on the streets, they are rarely "street photography." I usually stick them on the Landscape forum as "Urban Landscape." They are typically of buildings or trains or railroad tracks--that sort of thing. <a href="/photodb/folder?folder_id=1032268">Here is my "Shot in the Dark" folder.</a> There is not a person in it as of this writing. It is about inanimate things.

If I am going to survive as a street photographer, a shooter of people--even in a tiny place like Salisbury, NC--I need to learn a lot of things in a hurry. It reminds me of learning to ride a motorcycle, and why it is so critical to learn a lot of them in a hurry if one is going to survive those critical "first six months" on a bike.

Getting something worth shooting and sharing is even more challenging. Four bikes and forty-three years later, I have never seriously wracked myself up on a bike. I hope that I can survive the first six months shooting people on the street--especially at night.

I started to refrain from posting this sequence, since no shot in it is interesting in itself. Does the sequence in its totality have any <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heuristic">heuristic</a> value? I guess that that depends on how the thread goes. I'm getting something out of it--from other persons' comments.

Thanks to all for the suggestions, caveats, warnings, and cautions. This is new territory for me. I might just go back to shooting buildings and railroad tracks. They are safer. They don't move. They do not feel threatened.

I do like the night, though. It is magic.

--Lannie

q.g._de_bakker · September 13, 2013

"To me, your photos here come off as if you were stalking a private moment or party and that you were out of the loop" Ditto. And i wouldn't have posted them, Landrum. A private moment you now made us all intrude. There is something not quite right in posting such photos with a "Hopefully the consequences hurt no one.".

Landrum Kelly · September 13, 2013

I thought about that, Q.G., but the intrusion as perceived last night (by the subjects) is very different from the actual intrusion, in my opinion.

Here were Michael Chang's words to me in the wee hours of this morning:

I'm glad you posted this, Lannie. It gives amateurs and casual shooters something to think about and draw their own conclusions. I enjoy viewing street photos but the potential down side as a shooter just isn't worth it for me to participate, but I do appreciate the effort and sharing of those who do.

</blockquote>

I bought my first SLR in 1977, but in this genre "street photography" (especially at night!) I am admittedly the rankest of rank amateurs.

May it suffice to say that the reaction that I provoked from the man--and then, through his actions, from the others--disturbed me sufficiently to want to talk it through and get some other opinions.

Sometimes a mistake is just a mistake, Q.G. The question is whether we learn from it or not. I will readily concede that the photos should not have been made. I had recently bought a used Nikon D3s on eBay at a good price and wanted to see what it could do.

Well, I found out. It is a powerful tool. In the wrong hands, it can be perceived as a threatening weapon--along with the person who wields it.

--Lannie

Landrum Kelly · September 13, 2013

A private moment you now made us all intrude.

</blockquote>

This event, whatever it was, occurred on Main St. in good light. It was hardly private in any meaningful sense--unless you think, Q.G., that we should never shoot pictures of others under any circumstances without getting their prior permission. That seems a bit extreme to me.

--Lannie

Landrum Kelly · September 13, 2013

Whatever I expected of photography when I first picked up a camera, I can honestly say that I never imagined that a photographic event might turn out to be chastening.

--Lannie

cyanatic · September 13, 2013

Lannie --

Having seen many a similar thread on PN over the years (though none with a series of photographs that so powerfully showed what occurred) I found the responses here pretty predictable. Thanks, because --like Michael -- I think this is interesting, instructive, and worthwhile.

Three observations, each from a different viewpoint:

1.) As the photographer in this situation, you owe no explanations, no apologies, no justifications to anyone. Not to the people participating in this thread, not to the group of people you photographed. You saw a moment that you thought might yield an interesting photograph and you photographed it. Good for you. What you decide to photograph, or not photograph, in a public area in the USA is entirely up to you. Businessmen, family gatherings, homeless people, children, women in bikinis, obese people in yoga pants....up to you and whatever ethical boundaries you set for yourself. You don't have to limit yourself to the ethical standards or legal ignorance of other people. The only caveat is that you should be prepared to deal with the consequences of your actions.

2.) As the man who walked toward the car -- I'm with my family. My cousin, my daughter, a family friend -- whatever -- has just completed basic training and we're saying our goodbyes for the evening. I look over and there's a stranger in a car at the stoplight with a camera lens pointed directly at us. Who is this person? Why are they photographing us? A PI? A terrorist? A sexual predator? wtf is going on here? I'm going to walk over, confront this person, and ask them what they are doing. I don't know about the laws that govern public photography, and if I did know I wouldn't care. I perceive a potential threat to my friends and family and I'm going to get to the bottom of it. And if I truly was that man in this kind of situation, despite my knowledge of the law, and despite everything I said in # 1 above, I would still walk up to the person and ask them why they were taking the photograph.

3.) Ironically, just last weekend, I was with my wife and daughter at a Metra station a few blocks from our house, waiting to go to downtown Chicago. There was a young man with a DSLR. He was also waiting with a group of friends or family to board the train. For a few moments he pointed the camera in our direction and it was clear he was taking a photograph. Maybe he was photographing down the empty tracks, but there was no way we were not in the photograph(s) he took. I kind of smiled to myself and looked away. I perceived no threat whatsoever. For all I know my mug is now on some photography discussion board under the heading "Some street pics I took at the Metra station this weekend". Good for the kid. Different circumstances than # 2 above. Which really proves the point that Brad and others have made about "sneakiness".

But I'm just not into passing aesthetic or moral judgements on this topic. If it's legal, if it will get you a photograph you're happy with, and if you're prepared to face any possible consequences -- have at it.

q.g._de_bakker · September 13, 2013

Landrum, I do not propose an extreme view on privacy, no. Hence i have considerable difficulty with an "This event, whatever it was, occurred on Main St. in good light. It was hardly private in any meaningful sense" statement. As if happening on Main Street in enough light to be visible is enough to deny an event any kind of privacy. "That seems a bit extreme to me." I can understand the group's reaction, and i'm sure you do too. Which makes it difficult to understand that you still wanted to share this (the photos, not the story) with everyone on the world wide interweb.

Landrum Kelly · September 13, 2013

Here is approximately what I saw--or thought I saw:

<a href="/photo/17526440&size=lg">http://www.photo.net/photo/17526440&size=lg</a>

</blockquote>

IT GETS DICEY, DON'T IT?! Bad surprises can come at you--at any of us--pretty fast. The purity of our intentions does not matter at those moments. The road to hell, as they say, is paved with good intentions.

Fortunately, this situation stopped short of being too hellish--just a bit uncomfortable for all concerned.

--Lannie

Norma Desmond · September 13, 2013

Steve, did you notice that it was Lannie himself who passed aesthetic judgment on his own photos? This became clear to me when he said they had no value. Why does this have to become about ethics or about photographers standing their ground or about patting a photographer on the back for seizing the moment? Why can't it be about the photos? Lannie made it, in part, about that. And it's been addressed, at least as a start, though much more could be said about how this scene might have been approached to yield photos that Lannie might feel were of more value. But that would take something other than a debate about legality and ethics and it's often not where these threads prefer to go. I tried, and Lannie tried by responding substantively to me.

As for the behavioral aspects, Lannie also expressed discomfort with his own behavior and with what he perceived coming from the subjects of his photos. I guess it's fine to tell him he did nothing wrong, but I once did a kind of shooting I realized I'd become uncomfortable with and no amount of anyone telling me I wasn't doing anything wrong would have changed the fact that I just didn't want to shoot like that anymore. There are many changes Lannie could make that might make him more comfortable with his shooting, and it could still be quite candid shooting. Another possibility is that Lannie might embrace the discomfort and come to shoot photos that will be of more value to him, working with that discomfort in a genuine manner.

How would one express or convey discomfort at shooting such an event in a way that might reach out to the viewer and make us feel something or think about something? What would it feel like if there were a wall or a tree or post interfering with our view of the scene? My main aesthetic criticism is that there is no particular perspective or point of view here, so I am not drawn in. I simply don't care about what I'm seeing.

Lannie mentioned he was moved by the tearful reunion. What might he have done to express "tearful reunion" visibly and photographically? That would be where I'd start rather than getting into a debate about whether it's right to shoot a certain scene or not. If a photograph is expressive and has value to viewers, there will usually be much less a question of the ethics of the actual shooting that took place. Usually!

Landrum Kelly · September 13, 2013

I can understand the group's reaction, and i'm sure you do too. Which makes it difficult to understand that you still wanted to share this (the photos, not the story) with everyone on the world wide interweb.

</blockquote>

Q.G., I am a teacher by trade. If I see learning potential (for me or for others) in a situation, I am going to pursue it.

Thus this extended thread, which so far has too many posts by me, both of pictures and words. I yet hope that it turns out to be of some value to someone.

My first lesson here is simple: Don't take pictures of people at night from a car. Whatever else one may say, I would have to reiterate that lesson--mostly for myself, but also for anyone else who might happen upon this thread.

--Lannie

Norma Desmond · September 13, 2013

Lannie, just noticed the last photo you linked to. That's the best photo of the bunch. It provides context, and it feels the most honest. Comes across much less intrusively. It's from a greater distance but, to me, establishes a bit MORE intimacy than any of the other shots precisely because it does not come across as an attempt to INTRUDE from the outside but rather shows a genuine outside viewpoint . . . and . . . at least it has a meaningful gesture in the move toward an embrace, something lacking in the photos you had previously posted.

Maybe, in those previously posted photos, the guy bringing his hand to his chin or the kid's thumbs up were gestures, but they just don't reach out much to the viewer, and they also are more about YOUR behavior and participation than they are about the SUBJECTS per se. Not necessarily a bad thing to be part of the photo and have gestures directed to you, but certainly the move toward embrace in the final photo, especially from the true distance you're shooting, has more impact.

Norma Desmond · September 13, 2013

"My first lesson here is simple: Don't take pictures of people at night from a car. Whatever else one may say, I would have to reiterate that lesson . . . "

To me, that's a bad lesson learned. Some great photos have been taken from cars at night. I wouldn't think so much about where I was and what time of day it was. I would think much more about what the photos lacked and how to get more into them, even from a car and at night. Having said that, we all have our own limits and if you want to establish that limit about night and cars for yourself, of course go ahead and do so, but don't ignore the much more important photographic and aesthetic considerations that may have gone awry here.

Landrum Kelly · September 13, 2013

Thank you, both Steve and Fred. I must have cross-threaded with both of you in my later posting, which might put things in somewhat better context.

I think that you are both right, for what that's worth.

As for aesthetics, Fred, nothing is going to make these into masterpieces. Since I did not plan this shot or expect to be making such a shot until I was faced with doing so, I can only say that, from a technical side, I would have tried to remember to move the aperture back to f/2.8 from f/5.6. It is a little ridiculous to be shooting handheld at 12,800 ISO with the aperture closed down two full stops. That is, some of the shots are blurry because of that error--and noisy.

The technical problems do not bother me. What bothers me is that I might have spoiled some family's beautiful evening. I hope not. If so, I profoundly apologize to you, whoever and wherever you are.

To me, <a href="/photo/17526440&size=lg">it looked like a hug was coming</a>: O, to capture a happy reunion of a family with their returning soldier/child! Oh, happy day. That was the intent. Good intentions are not enough.

--Lannie

Norma Desmond · September 13, 2013

Lannie, just to be clear, when I talked about aesthetics, the last thing on my mind here was the blurriness or aperture. I was thinking of expressiveness, perspective, and moment. Not that it's not good to learn from technical missteps or perceived technical missteps. It's just that there's a lot more to consider.

Landrum Kelly · September 13, 2013

Fred. you might be right about giving myself an absolute rule about not shooting under certain circumstances, but I certainly will want to avoid a snap judgment to shoot on the spur of the moment--when shooting people at night from a car.

Hm, sorry for that unintentional pun. . . .

The problem, of course, is that photo ops have a way of popping up quickly--and disappearing even more quickly, it seems.

--Lannie

Norma Desmond · September 13, 2013

Lannie, thanks. I think good photography often requires snap judgments. What happens is, over time, hopefully our snap judgments become more informed by our past good and bad experiences and what we've learned photographically from the results we see. We still make snap judgments, but the snap has more and more meaning behind it the more we've thought about and seen the results of our snap judgments from the past. You don't necessarily want to undermine your own spontaneity or your own gut instincts, you just want to strengthen and deepen them over time.

Tim_Lookingbill · September 13, 2013

>>> Please feel free to offer your own observations.

</blockquote>

Thanks, Brad. I knew that a thread like this would snag at least one snide and snarky hypocrite:

</blockquote>

Now I'm afraid to offer my observations so I guess it goes without saying which way I swing on this, Lannie.

If the same situation arises again, I'ld suggest you drum up the courage and go up to folks in question and explain yourself.

Similar situation happened to me in the park and in an unfamiliar local neighborhood taking photos of refurbished Toll House style homes. I stood my ground by walking up to the people coming forward to ask what I was doing and explained myself. The police also arrived where I explained again what I was doing. No big deal, but the experience did rattle me, but that's the risk of walking around and taking photos out in public.

You doing it at night made even more riskier. And I don't think I'm being snarky or disrespectful.

Landrum Kelly · September 13, 2013

Lannie, just to be clear, when I talked about aesthetics, the last thing on my mind here was the blurriness or aperture.

</blockquote>

Fred, I understand. It is simply that I cannot believe how often I forget to check such a basic thing as aperture. It won't be the first time I have forgotten, or the last.

As for composition, as I started shooting, I was hoping that the group might open up and give me the shot I really wanted. It didn't happen.

Back to Mike Dixon's remarks earlier: It might not have been high drama, but it was more drama than I needed after three hard days of teaching, including a three-hour class meeting on Wednesday night (the night before). As for the impact on the family and friends, I can only hope that it was perceived as a minor incident. One never knows.

--Lannie

Landrum Kelly · September 13, 2013

What happens is, over time, hopefully our snap judgments become more informed by our past good and bad experiences and what we've learned photographically from the results we see.

</blockquote>

Thanks, Fred. I agree. One hopes to live long enough to develop such good "instincts."

--Lannie

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