Photography and Social Media

Tim_Lookingbill · October 17, 2013

Well at least social networking was instrumental and vital at toppling several lifelong dictators around the world. They even used YouTube video but they weren't showing sunsets unless to show an RPG on its way to hit a military target.

Now if you could figure out how to tie in one's photography business with changing the world in that respect, I think you got something.

MichaelChang · October 17, 2013

"Now if you could figure out how to tie in one's photography business with changing the world in that respect, I think you got something."

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Tim, it's so easy that even 21 year old's are doing it and succeeding.

Meet Raya, 21, been on YouTube since she was 19, has 480,000 subscribers and almost 63 million views of her videos. Her YouTube name was "Girl Gone Gamer" until other jealous competitors began openly trashing her (typical Internet) about how she's not a real gamer.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/user/GirlGoneGamer/videos">http://www.youtube.com/user/GirlGoneGamer/videos</a>

It wouldn't be hard to do the math to figure out how much she's making off her YouTube presence and free gifts mailed to her P.O. Box from her fans. She knows her audience, knows how to market, promote and sell herself, and in return making what I'd characterize as a decent living for someone her age. In contrast, most others keep what they make off YouTube in the ashtray of their rusty cars to pay for drive-through fast food.

Can a photographer replicate that kind of success? I would think so, but if you don't know how, I'm sure Raya is available for consulting - BUSINESS INQUIRIES: BusinessRaya@gmail.com

Tim_Lookingbill · October 17, 2013

Not the kind of world changing I was talking about, Michael, but I appreciate your effort posting the "GirlGoneGamer" find.

You're very good at finding interesting things on the internet, Michael. How do you do it? You might even make a business out of it.

The problem I've always had since I first logged on internet back in 1999 with a free AOL CD dial up account is I could never think of things to go searching for online. Nothing would ever pop in my head on what to ask.

And my memory seems to lag as well. Even today I'll be watching a news story or something of interest on TV and think about later doing a search on a specific question I had and later after the show was over return to my computer and just stare at the screen drawing a blank.

And then the old Stever Jobs adage pops in my head... "Sell them what they don't know they want". Bingo! There's my problem. I don't know what I want with the internet enough to be motivated into remembering how to use it effectively, but it still fascinates me. I wonder how many others are like me.

Norma Desmond · October 17, 2013

"I could never think of things to go searching for online"

1. porn

2. which actor played the husband of that blonde actress in that movie last year directed by that guy who directed that other movie from two years ago

3. what terminal disease these new symptoms must be a sign of

4. more porn

MichaelChang · October 18, 2013

Tim, my takeaway from all this social media stuff is that disruptive change creates unprecedented opportunities; the trick is to recognize and learn how to take advantage of it. What Raya's doing wouldn't have been possible even 7 years ago.

She uploads a video about every other day. On a slow day it might get 15k views, but an exceptionally interesting video will attract more than a million views. At 1/3 cents to 1 cent per view as a YouTube partner, she's probably making more money than most of us, and for doing much less work.

Everyone pretty much starts on an equal playing field. Over time, though, it's the smart players who will walk away laughing. Using Raya as a lesson (for photographers), my take is that it's more important to sell yourself than it is to push your photography - customers will more likely buy your goods or services if they like you, providing your photography is good enough to sell.

Tim_Lookingbill · October 18, 2013

Fred, who needs to have to remember search terms for porn? I mean really.

I just now remembered a search term I'ld forgotten around the subject of why my feet get these cracks between only a certain toe pair and only on my left foot that get so severe they break open, slightly bleed and become painful. But of course by the time that thought popped in my head it had all healed up after I gave up my old tennis shoes which had a hole in the left foot shoe, soaked my feet in mint, vinegar, water and toothpaste and applied Neosporin on the soars. No problems now.

Reading back the length of that response no wonder I couldn't remember what to search on.

Michael, after watching several of Raya's videos, I'm sorry to say I'm having a hard time believing the level of success you've outlined. I just don't believe the numbers. There's something about her delivery in relation to the level of popularity she appears to garner that just doesn't smell right. Way too much hidden there to know the real truth.

I don't know who those 480,000 subscribers are. I didn't see them click on anything much less watch the video. Over 3000 comments on some of the videos and most of them are sophomoric "you suck" one liners isn't an audience I'ld think would have a level of disposable income that any business would want to market to. Something insincere about her style of delivery I couldn't take much of no matter the subject she appears to be an authority on.

But I did think of doing something similar to Raya's YouTube videos but it wouldn't be for selling my photographs.

lex_jenkins · October 18, 2013

Tim, getting back to your skepticism about "the efficacy of social media networking", I immediately thought of Ian Taylor, a longtime photo.net member who has confirmed that <a href="https://www.facebook.com/IanTaylorPhotography">Facebook</a> has been more effective for him in generating work than just about any other online presence or activity. I think he may have mentioned Flickr as part of his online strategy, but if I'm recalling correctly he said it wasn't particularly effective in generating business. He's also on <a href="http://500px.com/koknia">500px</a>. But only recently did he launch <a href="http://iantaylor.ca/">his own website</a>.

See what I just did there?

Now that's just one example of how the web generates traffic, Google prominence and, at least indirectly, contributes to a successful pro photography business.

You seem skeptical about proof of how effective social networking and web presence can be in generating business. There are all kinds of metrics for evaluating this stuff. Sure, there's a little voodoo involved. But it's not much different from the old paradigm used by newspapers, radio and TV to sell advertising.

You also seem to suspect that shills are behind successful businesses...

"Even if you took pictures of a gallery event to show others online that there is truly an interest in their work, it still doesn't rule out the possibility the attendees are just relatives and friends of the photographer."

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...and <a href="/site-help-forum/00c4SR">even behind photo.net</a>:

"For the length of time I've been a member I've had my suspicions a lot of these people are really friends of PN employees and/or employees themselves hired to add prattle to make this site look like its humming along in order to build traffic."

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I'm not a shill for Ian Taylor. We've never even met. I just like his photography. He's one of the best I've seen doing children's portraiture. So I'm happy to mention him in that context. Same as any other photographer whose work I admire.

I'm not a shill for photo.net either. I'm a volunteer, not an employee, friend or family member. I've stuck with the site because I like it, despite the occasional family-type kerfluffles and spats. I hope it will evolve, succeed and find its niche in the extremely competitive and difficult genre of photography oriented websites.

To me, this sort of thing is no different from community theater, where I spent a lot of time during the late 1980s-throughout the 1990s. There's no money in it. People come together, pitch in and say, <a href="

the spirit of Judy Garland and Mickey Rooney, "Let's put on a show!"</a>

Sure, there are shills and spammers and SEO agents. I demonstrated a rather amusing example of that <a href="/off-topic-forum/00Yi9O">here a couple of years ago</a>. But hype alone can't build a business. You also have to deliver the goods.

AlanKlein · October 18, 2013

Aren,t there firms or people out there who can help socially Internet inept photographers do the merchandizing while

the ,tog is out taking pictures? After all, actors, writers and other artists and professionals use agents to rep them.

Tim_Lookingbill · October 19, 2013

Lex, I appreciate and respect your thoughts and opinions and in the way you convey them in your writing so I thought maybe you picked up on the philosophy in the image I posted in which I tried to put forth the idea the internet is mainly a narcissistic endeavor for most folks and not conducive for marketing a product to potential clientele with any predictability who by and large are on the internet for their own benefit and curiosity. Lot of lookers and lurkers. It's worse than selling at a convention only now it's without the direction needed to distinguish buyers from sellers from browsers.

This creates a a large portion of its audience that thinks their interests and endeavors are better and more interesting than the other guys with most not able to distinguish buyers from sellers, professionals from amateurs due to the limited social interaction that would better enable them to gauge motivations and intent that also lacks the added ability to develop a basic gut feeling about the efficacy of their marketing approach and online schmoozing.

I now have 46 FB "Friend Requests" that have built up in my many months of absence I can't gauge the intent behind since I haven't contributed or developed any FB relationships much less conducted meaningful discussions that would give any indication to these folks who want me as their friend that I'm worthy of their attention. Their timelines show very little activity and the ones that do are just small talk about events in their life with none of the 46 even bothering to post a "How ya' doing?"on my Timeline so I'm a bit confused or unsure as to what subject to talk to them about.

Same goes for photography enthusiast sites. If I talk among other photographer enthusiasts and/or professionals I don't find them buying photos from each other so where does a photographer hang out to build a market and drive folks to look and buy their work and be able to weed out self centric lurkers, browsers and curiosity seekers. I can assure you I haven't seen one PN poster say they bought a photo from another PN member in my 9 years as a PN subscriber which also applies to other photography enthusiast sites I frequent.

Another way to put it is that if everyone wants to be seen, then no one is seen with the added confusion caused by the lack of clarity in discerning the motivation and intent of its audience. Just because a large group of enthusiast who share common interests who can be marketed to on the web doesn't mean they are or can be reliably measured as genuine buyers or sellers.

ilkka_nissila · October 19, 2013

the internet is mainly a narcissistic endeavor for most folks and not conducive for marketing a product to potential clientele

The internet exists to facilitate communication between people and to help people find information. I do think the fact that anyone can publish anything online creates a lot of noise but there is also good information and over time, and intelligent individuals will learn to find it. Previously, information that got into larger circulation was filtered by the mainstream media but today a greater part of unfiltered information is accessible and to do well, each of us have to learn the skill of filtering the good from the bad and not trust someone else to do it for them, even though traditional media continue to co-exist along with the new. I think this will also help people learn to be more critical of mainstream media and read it with some healthy suspicion. If I had it my way, moderation online would be much more common and more thorough, but it isn't. Many people continue to pay for traditional media to access moderated content.

Even folks who claim to be "professional" photographers don't really show any proof of this to the extent it's a viable and sustainable business.

Is it really necessary for you to have access to information about other people's business success? I would think that it is a somewhat private matter if it is a small business. For larger businesses (or certain types of companies even if small), key financial information can be found online at least in my country.

I now have 46 FB "Friend Requests" that have built up in my many months of absence I can't gauge the intent behind

Why do you need to know what their intent is? If you don't know these people from your personal life, then they probably are interested in your work or heard your name from a mutual acquaintaince. Whether they would buy something or not would depend on how they see your work and how you're able to communicate with them and market your work. If you don't let them see your pages and discuss your work with you, then it would seem that you're not interested in promoting your work and can't blame anyone else for not making a sale. It is like someone shows up at your gallery door and you demand to see that they carry a ton of money and proofs that they've purchased fine art photography before, and a CV and references, before you consider letting them in to view and talk to you about your work. It's your right to do that of course, but in my opinion to be a good business person you have to be open to the world.

Same goes for photography enthusiast sites. If I talk among other photographer enthusiasts and/or professionals I don't find them buying photos

Right, we do our own photography and rarely buy other people's work. Sites like this one are for sharing information about how to make photographs, and not about promoting your work or finding clients among the forum members.

Tim_Lookingbill · October 20, 2013

The internet exists to facilitate communication between people and to help people find information... ...Is it really necessary for you to have access to information about other people's business success?

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In the context of online socializing in order to network there are limits to accessing certain kinds of information that may or may not be pertinent to conducting business because of the public and business face required to distinguish or prevent as such whether the online entity is a representative, has a real office or is just some dude at his computer eating Cheetos in his underwear selling drugs online. With first impressions and presentation being everything and the only thing in this respect the internet is no better place at controlling what a person in business wants the other guy to know about them.

If you don't let them see your pages and discuss your work with you, then it would seem that you're not interested in promoting your work and can't blame anyone else for not making a sale.

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My FB profile preferences is set to "Public" not "Private". It has my PN ImagePro link to my gallery. They have all the information they need to know who I am, but to be fair the 46 "Friend Requests" are all from former classmates I haven't seen or talked to for over 30 years and not one has shown an interest in my photos or my life in general by posting on my FB Timeline, calling me by phone or emailing me, all methods of contact quite easy to find.

The internet with respect to our society seems to be acting as the monolith in the movie "2001 A Space Odyssey" where the apes don't know what to make of it, are fascinated and somewhat in fear of it as they poke and prod while others operate in anonymity making a business out of promoting it "as thing everyone didn't know they wanted" likes it's the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Norma Desmond · October 20, 2013

Right now, the Internet is in its infancy.

I approach it as a matter of potential. Its potential can be good or bad . . . or both.

MichaelChang · October 20, 2013

"The internet with respect to our society seems to be acting as the monolith in the movie "2001 A Space Odyssey" where the apes don't know what to make of it, are fascinated and somewhat in fear of it as they poke and prod while others operate in anonymity making a business out of promoting it "as thing everyone didn't know they wanted" likes it's the greatest thing since sliced bread."

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Those who do know what to make of the Internet are taking full advantage of it.

Founders of TED, Amazon, Wikipedia and eBay all have very different interpretations about that the Internet represents, and they're all correct because it turns out the Internet is whatever you believe it to be, and this is true for everyone down to the 12 year old using it for school or connecting with friends.

Whether one can achieve success through the use of the Internet is entirely dependent on the individual, and the reward can be unprecedented for anyone who can manage to figure it out, but even if you're simply following your passion, there are plenty of examples of accidental successes which would never have happened had they not participated. Psy's Gangnam Style is one, but more down to earth is Michelle Phan but also could have been anyone else:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63NX-Og67u8">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63NX-Og67u8</a> - The accidental millionaire

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/user/MichellePhan/about">http://www.youtube.com/user/MichellePhan/about</a> - Her YouTube page

Tim_Lookingbill · October 20, 2013

Google "I bought a photo".

I guess no one likes to discuss they did such a thing.

Tim_Lookingbill · October 20, 2013

Whether one can achieve success through the use of the Internet is entirely dependent on the individual...

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That has not and can not be proven especially with regard to selling photographs.

EricM · October 20, 2013

That has not and can not be proven especially with regard to selling photographs.

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yuri arcurs

too bad it's become a ridiculous and derailed thread, William. it's an important and relevant topic

Tim_Lookingbill · October 20, 2013

How has it been derailed, Eric?

Got anything substantive to contribute as a response to put it back on its rails?

I think I put some good points across. I don't know what you think, yet.

lex_jenkins · October 20, 2013

Tim, there seem to be two main challenges in communicating to you the advantages of social networking for professional photographers:

<ol>

<li>You've said you're not active on FB. Trying to grok social media without actually participating is like trying to learn to ride a bicycle by reading about it. At some point you simply have to do it. And, yup, you'll also fall off a couple of times while trying to get the hang of it.</li>

<li>Your definition of successfully monetizing photography through social media seems to be too narrowly limited to "selling prints".</li>

</ol>

Sure, some of my FB contacts do sell prints or books. Others are working pros, like Eric, Ellis and others, whose primary output may not be selling prints in galleries or books, but producing photos for clients who will determine the end usage. Some may sell stock photography as part of their business strategy (although that market is more difficult than it used to be).

With rare exceptions - photographers whose reputations were secure years ago - photographer who want to monetize their work in some capacity must use social media effectively or they'll be invisible.

Another example: Roger Ballen had carved out a niche and cult following with his unflinching portraits and photos of bizarre, nightmarish staged constructions. For years his primary outlet was selling books of his work. But since his collaboration with Die Antwoord, he's used social media to post updates about his projects, gallery shows and workshops.

And it's not merely advertising or just another voice amid a cacaphonous horde. Social media makes connections that work the way people think, because they create the connections. So when you "friend", "like", follow or subscribe to an artist whose work you like, you're creating a connection that allows other like minded people to contribute to connections to other artists and creative people who might also be compatible with your interests.

As an example of how these connections are made, I discovered through following Roger Ballen's FB updates that another person following his FB feed was acquainted with other San Francisco area folks who were FB contacts, and that she had taken one of Ballen's workshops *and* that she was involved in a community arts project. Because of my own interests in documentary photography and community arts, Facebook's sorta-smart hivemind said "Hey, Lex, we see you're interested in such-and-such. Perhaps you might be interested in so-and-so as well." And, sure 'nuff, I made contacts with other photographers around the world with similar interests and goals. I never got those kinds of connections, inspirations and encouragement from any old web paradigm site.

You can't create those kinds of connections by confining yourself to old web thinking and sticking with old paradigm, insular websites. Even with Google ranking for popular websites that appear prominently (due primarily to SEO strategies by the webmasters), confining yourself to a website like photo.net is roughly comparable to hanging your framed prints only in a local gallery and hoping that people wander in and see something they like. Social media is far more effective than the old strategy of mailing queries to galleries and pounding the pavement, portfolio in hand, trying to drum up interest in your prints.

Through Facebook I've also discovered photographers who sell their own self-published, and, in some cases, handmade, handstitched books. They even post fairly high resolution JPEGs of their photos online and don't worry about "theft" because their primary goal is creating unique or limited runs of books.

But if you don't get on that bicycle, all of this advice sounds like someone yelling "It's fun! Try it!" while riding a preposterous two-wheeled contraption that looks like a demonic invention for maiming people. Never mind that they're going faster than you are and most of them are getting to their destinations safely. Clearly they must be crazy because those two-wheeled death traps can't possibly work the way people claim.

Yes, you'll fall off and scrape your knees a few times. I've seen several folks make typical blunders on Facebook, such as using it for nonstop rant-posts about politics, rather than using it to promote not only their artwork but themselves. Instead, they come across as cranks. Talented, creative, artistic... cranks. And I've seen people join, quit, rejoin, requit, rejoin, requit, over and over because they keep making the same dumb mistakes - misusing a great outlet for creative expression and making connections for the selfish purpose of screaming about whatever pisses them off today. It's like going to a gallery, museum, library, ballet or movie and someone in the crowd is shouting "Don't you people realize, it's all going to hell! Wake up!" (Except on FB you can hit the mute button and make 'em disappear, although they might reappear due to common connections.) Then they get embarrassed, take a break, come back promising to be less annoying aaannnddd... lather, rinse, repeat.

And who knows, maybe there's a viable market for the temperamental artist type who can actually make good use of a reputation as a creative and volatile personality. "Hey, wanna see my new painting of the endangered Hartz Mountain purple beret bushwhacker? Latest work by Grumblerella. You know, the lunatic artist from Gitcheegotcha. Yeah, she's insane, but she sure can paint. I used a broker for the purchase so she doesn't have my address. I've heard she sometimes goes on cross-country tantrums reclaiming her paintings from 'undeserving slobs who voted for so-and-so'. After her last stint in the mental hospital the market value of her paintings doubled!"

But for most folks, that's doing it wrong. So take a little time to get a feel for the place. And don't hesitate to approve those friend requests. You might make some interesting and unexpected connections. And if it doesn't work out, you can always unfriend, unlike or unfollow folks who annoy you.

EricM · October 20, 2013

Great post, Lex.

As an example of how these connections are made...

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...would be the <a href="http://www.littlefriendsphoto.com/index2.php#!/home">amazing underwater dog photography by seth casteel</a>.

Social Media is essentially about 'Top-of-mind Awareness' and is why every company from the local plumber to Coca-Cola does it.

Tim_Lookingbill · October 21, 2013

Well when you put it that way, Lex, it makes a lot of sense if not a lot of work and time to invest which I'ld be impressed and interested to know how you allowed for while contributing at PN. I got exhausted just imagining duplicating your online adventures that allowed you to find all this out.

That's a lot of rabbit holing to tunnel through in hopes of making a connection. I probably don't want it bad enough to get on that crazy contraption that everyone else you mentioned who started from the ground up has found success in except with my situation it's at such a later stage in the game at 54 years I have to more carefully pick which adventure I cast my fate with and whether the risk interests me enough.

Clearly I like it more safe here at PN, but I'm still having to be spoon fed information from other people as yourself who've had different results and experiences that may not pan out for me since I don't get to physically see successes as you outlined. I have to take everyone's word for it. I'm a bit tired of living life according to some one else's perspective on the way things operate without any evidence that I can see with my own eyes. After 54 years of not having things go my way with no clear evidence in understanding why, I'm a bit apprehensive if not jaded now toward going down another rabbit hole venture I can't see the other end on whether I'll win or lose.

Nothing personal against you, Lex, and I thank you for making the effort to post such a thoughtful and informative response.

virginia_john_mybusiness · October 21, 2013

Wait up guys.. wait up... I know I can get this image through two tin cans and a string... I know I can...

studio460 · October 23, 2013

My perception of Facebook as a marketing tool changed when potential clients stopped asking if I had a website, and instead, started asking if I had a Facebook page (that reminds me . . . I really need to update my MySpace page).

cyanatic · October 23, 2013

<a href="/photodb/user?user_id=172915">Lex Jenkins</a><a href="/member-status-icons"><img title="Moderator" src="/v3graphics/member-status-icons/mod.gif" alt="" /><img title="Subscriber" src="/v3graphics/member-status-icons/sub10plus.gif" alt="" /><img title="Frequent poster" src="/v3graphics/member-status-icons/3rolls.gif" alt="" /></a>, Oct 20, 2013; 04:38 p.m.