Image not Sharp

[erik_e]

<p>Goodmorning <br>

I just don't understand the following. I got a RZ67proII over a year ago, but still I am not sure whether something is wrong with the camera or I am doing something wrong since every once in a while the whole image seems blurred AND I believe the image should be much sharper, especially since I have all new lenses and everybody is raving about them.</p>

<p>I I have put up the two diffferent images on flickr: On eis almost sharpest I get and the other one is blurred all over... <br>

http://www.flickr.com/photos/94311925@N08/<br>

They have been shot with 150 mm f8.0 On a very heavy tripod at 1/180s and all studio flashes. the film is KODAK t-MAx 100 and scanned with a EPSON V750.<br>

I have had the camera checked by mamiya guys, but say it is all fine. to me it is not fine, since I am expecting much sharper images..</p>

<p>Hope you can help or at least tell me what sharpness to expect. <img src="http://www.flickr.com/photos/94311925@N08/" alt="" /><br>

Thanks a lot . </p>

<p> </p>

[Robin Smith]

<p>I suggest you have a scanning problem - is the film curved/not flat on the scanner? Have you checked out the negative with a loupe to check it is really sharp? If it is not the scanner and your equipment is good then you misfocussed (easily done), or it is camera shake - it can still happen, however big and heavy your tripod. My guess is that it is the scanner or you missed focus.</p>

[brian yarvin]

<p>Erik:</p>

<p>When the Mamiya guys say that "everything is fine," they mean the camera, not the entire chain of technique that creates the photo. Based on your description of your technique, you should be seeing far better sharpness than these scans show - something is wrong somewhere. The problem is that it could be anywhere.<br>

<br />I would start with how you are loading the film - move through other equipment handing possibilities - and finally check your scanner beginning with how you put the film in/on it.</p>

<p>Back in film days, I had editors who checked sharpness with 30x pocket microscopes - I called them "atomic loupes" - and the Mamiyas could hold their ground against anything else in the same format. It's just that with film, there are so many more things that can go wrong, and so, so, many things a person can be doing wrong without realizing it, that you have a very big challenge tracking down these errors.</p>

<p>Best of luck...actually, these sorts of challenges are exciting in their own way.</p>

[lightrasp1664881197]

<p>It's a USER/focus problem - you need to get your eyes checked. If the camera is on a tripod at 1/180 at f8 and the subject is seated and you are using flash there should be no subject movement you are NOT focusing correctly.<br>

How do I know this? The grain is sharp!</p>

<p>jh</p>

 

[martynas_photo]

<p>maybe there's something wrong with the focusing screen? If it is installed incorrectly - the image might be focused to your eyes, but not against the film plane. I've never come across such problem myself, just read about it somewhere. <br>

Surely, the scanner may be off as well.</p>

[szrimaging]

<p>The grain does look sharper than the image, so I am going to go with two options. First, bad film back/improper loading; if the film isn't flat/tight against the plate (I assume it's a plate, haven't handled a RZ67), then the "in focus" image won't be in focus when it hits the film. Second, your screen is not seated correctly, if the registration is not correct, then it will be in focus on the screen and not on the film plane.<br /><br />Have you tried multiple film backs? When Mamiya tested it, did they actually run film through it or use your back?</p>

[erik_e]

<p>Thanks for the reply:<br>

@John h: my vision is actually very good and even if focussing would be the case there would at least be an area in focus so that still doesn't explain while the whole image is blurred..<br>

Not saying I am doing everything perfect, but the focus thing is not likely I think.. I will let them scan professionally to see what the outcome is... <br>

I develop in rodinal about 12+ minutes 18.8 degrees Celsius.. Agitation every minute once.</p>

<p>If anyone has any other tips...</p>

<p> </p>

[erik_e]

<p>@Zach and MArty: if there is something wrong with the focussing screen, wouldn't then be focus point be of a bit and not like you see here? <br>

the two example you saw are from the same film. Is it possible when the film was not sitting properly that especially 2 pics are blurry?Shouldn't the whole film be the same then?Is there a way to check that the film is sitting firm enough?<br>

About loading the film: well I try to get the film as tight as possible. There is only one way of loading it so I guess not much of difference there....<br>

I just tried scanning something I did today with different heights and all images are blurry ....</p>

 

[erik_e]

<p>@Brian: I am not sure what they check to be honest, I guess they check if the mirror is working fine etc.. </p><div></div>

[sheldonnalos]

<p>I suspect a focusing error as the cause of the unsharpness. I doubt it's anything to do with scanning, since it wouldn't be that unsharp. Maybe you bumped the focus wheel or turned it inadvertently when flipping the focusing lock knob. If you had consistent unsharpness I might suspect the focusing screen, but since you indicate that it's only an occasional problem that doesn't sound likely. </p>

<p>FWIW, the RZ67 glass is stellar and should be able to produce VERY sharp images. Here's a shot from the RZ67 II and 150mm f/3.5 lens, shot wide open. This was on a digital back (Aptus 22).</p>

<p><img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v483/sheldonnalos/L_000362-2-Edit.jpg" alt="" width="750" height="1000" /></p>

<p>And here is a 100% crop...</p>

<p><img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v483/sheldonnalos/L_000362-2-Crop.jpg" alt="" width="1000" height="800" /></p>

[erik_e]

<p>@Sheldon: Wow how sharp that is.. Well when I say that only a few. I mean that only a few are that obvious . I also believe that the others should also be much sharper.... </p>

[lightrasp1664881197]

<p>if that's true - you need to conduct the classic 'brick-wall' test. Measure to a brick wall after squaring the camera to it and pull focus with the lens scale instead of your eyes...you know the drill, same lens and f/stop as the person - let the shutter vary, and compare the negs. </p>

[jose_angel]

<p>Erik, I use the same setup as you. Why have you asked to the Mamiya staff? Isn`t your camera in good (at least cosmetically) shape?</p>

<p>I cannot get super sharp images scanning with my V750. The difference between V750`s screen scans and wet prints is enormous. I`m not saying that the V750 is a bad scanner for 6x7, but one need the knowledge and the proper software to get the most of it... I`m not able to do so. The look of b&w scanned film at the screen is ugly... anyway, don`t expect even to come close to Sheldon`s image quality.</p>

<p>The "Test 2" image seem "normal" to me. Obviously it is a crop, so depending on the size of the image, I`d say it is normal. The "Test01" image is clearly out of focus. Think that depending on the focus distance, even at f8 could be not enough to have all into focus. The "Blurry rock" image looks like taken under a camera shake effect.</p>

<p>Are you sure they are not user`s mistakes? Sincerely, it looks to me that it isn`t the camera.<br /> I agree with John... I`d try it again with a static subject. Mirror up, tripod, cable release, outdoors. Avoid complications.</p>

[thirteenthumbs]

<p>I vaguely familiar with the RZ. Lock the shutter open, remove the film holder insert, place a piece of ground glass against the film rails ground side toward the lens, and compare the view image to the film holder image with a good loupe. They should match, if not adjust the view screen to match the film holder. Scotch Magic Tape<br>

http://www.scotchbrand.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/ScotchBrand/Scotch/Products/Catalog/~/Scotch-Magic-Tape-Dispensered-Rolls?N=6604337&rt=rud<br>

can be placed across the film plane with strips side by side attached to the edges of the film holder only in place of the ground glass and will produce a sharp enough image for the test.</p>

<p>Also try other lens for the camera if you have them. The rock image looks like it may have some camera shake as well as being out of focus. </p>

<p>Although your tripod may seem rock solid it may be vibrating from mechanical or motorized movement of the camera giving the appearance of camera shake.</p>

<p>And if you lived close by I could figure out what the problem is.</p>

[erik_e]

<p>Thanks a lot for your comments guys. Test 01 is also a crop, but the whole image , is out of focus. Including nose and back , so it is obviously a shake or a scanner issue. I might be blindm but not THAT blind ;)<br>

If test02 is the best Mamiya can do on film, then that is what it does. Probably not Mamiya's fault, but film limitations. I am gonna try to get one of those mega loops to see if the negatives are sharp asap. Just to rule out focussing or mirror slamming and will try different lenses...<br>

In the meantime one other est pic I took today , on the same film role as Rock, but this one is not cropped.</p>

<p>Again thanks alot.</p>

<p> </p><div></div>

[erik_e]

<p>Equipment Update: The Tripod: Manfrotto 058B (

) and the head is <br>

MANFROTTO BALL HEAD MH054MO-Q2 ( u can hang a grown man to that thing).<br>

<br>

and all picture were taken with a trigger...<br>

<br>

</p>

[erik_e]

<p>and I live in the Netherlands...</p>

[erik_e]

<p>@JOse, I did all that for the rock picture: I`d try it again with a static subject. Mirror up, tripod, cable release, outdoors, except for the mirror up...<br>

I will make a wet print and see what happens there..<br>

</p>

[lubos_soltes]

<p>It is not the scanner, dust specks, hair and other debris on the film is sharp. A few things however:<br>

1. Don't scan with any kind of effects enabled (grain reduction etc.) in the software.<br>

2. Place the film directly on the scanner glass with some glass on top of it to hold it flat (don't worry about newton rings for now, it's just a test).<br>

3. Don't scan on higher DPI than 3200, the scanner does not have the optics to resolve more anyway.</p>

<p>The last image posted actually looks ok when scaled down a bit. Anyway I am getting sharper results from 645 from a Bronica ETRSi and Epson V500 ...</p>

[erik_e]

<p>@lubos: this image is scanned directly on the scanning glass with a piece of glass on top( glass is about 2 mm thick) and no scanning tools at 3200 dpi . What strikes me is that KODAK is not even sharp.......</p>

[erik_e]

<p>@Lubos: here is the image without the covering glass. Negatoves was still flat after the previous glass cover. Now you do see the KODAK to be sharp, so I guess it is not the scanner afterall.......</p>

<p> </p><div></div>

[erik_e]

<p>@Lubos: this the image with the glass cover.</p><div></div>

[tim_ludwig2]

<p>Definitely camera movement on the rock image. That can be from finger pressure (always use a cable release) or more likely mirror slap since this looks to have an up or down movement which would be that same orientation as the movement of the mirror.</p>

<p>I'm not at all sure that using either ground glass or Scotch tape across the back will work as this will not actually be at the film plane which is inset inside of the back. You will get a focused imaged with it, but it will not match the viewfinder/film plane relationship as it will be many thousands of an inch away on the short side from the actual film plane.</p>

<p>Hassleblads can be checked this way, but only by use of a special focus screen with a mount frame that is designed to place that screen at the factual film plane. To my knowledge, Mamiya did not make such an accessory so that method is likely out the door. That requires absolutely precise comparative placement which is not available to you. </p>

<p>You might use that with a loupe on the substitute ground glass and with the mirror locked up to see the sharpness of the image that the lens is focusing, but it will not tell you anything about whether that matches the sharp image on the camera focus screen as compared to the image on the actual film plane.</p>

<p>I have owned three RB67s and a slew of lenses, so I will add my assurance that Mamiya made one fine system with tack sharp lenses. ( I know from many fellow pros who have used the RZ system, that it is at least as good and likely better.) I have made hundreds of 16x20's for portrait clients, many dozens of 20x24's, a handful of 24x30's and one extremely sharp 40x60 print(s) from RB negatives and they were uniformly sharp within the boundaries of what the film could produce. Superb optics!!!!</p>

<p>It may be that you have a misaligned screen although that should lock down tight and perfectly unless it has been damaged and the screen knocked loose within the frame. It is more likely either mis-focus or on longer exposures, poor firing or tripod technique or the mirror slap. It might also be something wrong with the film pressure plate in the back although the differing amounts of the out of focus effect make that seem less likely. None the less, it is worth having the back checked by a reliable repair facility with the right tools and testing equipment.</p>

<p>Also, just how loose is the focus on the rails. If it has been tampered with in the past, it is just remotely possible that it could slip on it's own. In normal operating conditions, that wont happen, but who knows. Isn't there a focus lock on these cameras? If so, you might try engaging that at the moment you set the focus as well.</p>

<p>So for now, use a cable release, refocus just prior to firing, lock the focus if possible, lock up the mirror before firing, and avoid using the tripod with the center column elevated if you can. All of those contribute to a much steadier camera.</p>

<p>If you suspect the scanner, check the fine detail on the film with a good loupe on a light box. That should steer you one way or the other toward which equipment is suspect.</p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

<p>Tim<br>

</p>

[steve_mareno1]

<p>Check your negs on a light table w/ a loupe. That will eliminate the scanner from the equation. Of course, if you're getting the word KODAK that isn't sharp, it has to be the scanner, or maybe development. If you can't check the image w/ a ground glass on the camera's film plane due to it's design, then you're going to have to test-shoot a roll. Try focusing like normal, then move the lens a teeny bit further than that and take a photo, then take a shot w/ the focus a teeny bit nearer. Do that at several distances. Then examine the negs w/ a loupe on the light table. But if it were me, I'd keep it simple. After a quick check to see if all looks right w/ the focus screen, I'd just buy, borrow or rent another lens and see where that leads me. </p>

[thirteenthumbs]

<p>Backing paper for 120 film is .006 inch (0.1524mm) thick.<br>

Film base from Fuji, Ilford, Kodak is from 3.5 mil to 4.5 mil ( 0.0889 mm to 0.1143mm) thick.<br>

Large format film holder specifications for film depth is to the front surface of the film with a thick base film thickness either side of that position. A similar specification for medium format film holders, which may be camera specific, should exist.</p>

<p>Take any make roll film holder, remove the insert and look at the mating surface where the pressure plate of the insert meets that of the shell. There are pin rollers at the film gate edges with polished bars across the top and bottom of the film gate. The outer bars are guides for the paper backing and the innermost for the film. A piece of gg touching the innermost guides only should be the front surface of any film in use and as long as the measurement is within .0005 inch (0.0127 mm) of the actual film surface position the focused image should be as acceptably sharp as the focusing screen.</p>

<p>Granted some camera designs may make it difficult to position a focusing surface at the film surface.</p>

<p>eric E, I'm in California, US A so bring the camera over is not an easy option, want to buy me a plane ticket? :D</p>