My reasons to hate my 7D

KenPapai · December 4, 2012

>> <<

I used 30D for 7 years.. [wow!]

</blockquote>

No reason to read anymore. Laughable. -Ken (unless you are Ann O.)

john_r._fulton_jr. · December 4, 2012

iPhone 4 and newer have nice cameras built-in. You might be happier with that. There are also apps which allow you to 'process' the pictures in phone so you don't have to use that pesky Photoshop program. Good luck with your photography.

William Michael · December 4, 2012

. . . you say about learning "the new tool" - I for one am willing to learn! Can you please be specific about what is that you wish me to learn/ practise?

</blockquote>

I shall.

My comment about learning the tool was general and generic to all cameras. Although latter in this thread I did make a specific comment about understanding the nuances of Post Production and tailoring minor details, for the 7D.

However my first comment on this thread was about taking the time and making the effort to learn a new camera: in this respect –

I suggest that the TTL Metering System be the first which is tested; learned and understood.

Then (for a digital camera) the general latitudes of over and under exposure must be tested and understood.

Then the efficiencies and effectiveness of the AF Modes and AF Points (i.e. a complete understanding of the AF system).

Whilst pursuing the above one should be using and learning the different functionalities / layout and ergonomics of the camera.

So those are my first four basics to know inside out and upside down about a new camera.

I would then suggest to understand all the options on the camera and to fine tune the best methods of using the camera and the camera's options to suit one's particular outputs – or to address particular matters to suit one's style or particular desired result.

Addressing a particular matter, is what Dick has described above – he sought solution to noise issues – you’ll note how (he implied) he first identified the matter and then set about a logical method of addressing it – but you’ll also note that the ‘matter’ he needed to address came from his particular outputs and that’s why he pursued it with vigour and rigour.

Let me give you another example: Several years ago I was using a 20D and a 30D, when I bought a 5D. So when I first used my 5D I began by learning the four basics as I listed them above. But one of my specific ‘matters’ is that I capture: raw + JPEG(L). Sometimes I use the JPEG SOOC (Straight Out Of Camera). So one of the first ‘matters’ I addressed was understanding and tailoring the Picture Style in the 5D to suit my outputs – which became quite a task as I expected everything to be very similar to the 20D and 30D – and it wasn’t within a bull’s roar.

Let me give you a further example – perhaps better suited as an answer to your question:

I coach (tutor) Art Students who are Majoring in Photography – many (most) have only a rudimentary understanding of the camera and also the Technicalities of Photography – their ‘outputs’ are very much artistically focussed and the end result is what matters the minutia of the means by which it is attained is often glossed over or not considered. And I am paid to tutor in this respect - for Students to succeed in their exams and with the Major Work.

At the beginning of this year I had a past Student (who did exceeding well in 2011 Finals Exams – top 5% of the State), come to me and ask if I could do some more tutoring with her: but she wanted to give me the course outline – she said words similar to: “I got good marks and I make good photographs but I don’t feel comfortable and sometimes I don’t understand what I am doing – my camera feels alien to me sometimes; you talked about the camera being ‘an unconscious extension of your hand’ – I never feel that – that’s what I want to learn.”

She had her camera bag with her – so, for the very first lesson I asked her to take out her camera and hold it in the ‘ready position – landscape orientation’ (she uses Canon).

As she held the camera’s viewfinder to her eye I noted the Camera Mode was “M”, she cradled the base in her left hand and her right thumb was behind and in-touch with the rear controls and her right she index finger was on the Shutter Release.

I asked her (without activating) what the ISO was set to – she guessed 200 – and she was correct. We were inside my office, inside a building – I asked why would a Photographer have the ISO set to 200? That goes to ‘preparedness’.

The next question I asked was, why did she have her right index finger over the Shutter Release and she replied because you asked me to take the ‘ready position – landscape orientation’:

I explained that she misunderstood my question – I wanted her complete rationale as to why she CHOSE to have THAT finger over the Shutter Release.

Perhaps this last question is the best example of what I meant by ‘practice to learn the tool’ – to go to the fundamentals and begin by understanding exactly of what the tool is capable and by how many means is it capable: and then make informed choices as to how to best use THAT tool to get the results to best suit one’s particular outputs.

WW

keith reeder · December 5, 2012

Brilliant, William. I'm going to add that another - ubiquitous - cause of threads like this is ignorance of how properly to compare camera output. It has been touched on several times in this thread already, but to spell it out unambiguously: do your comparisons at the image level, not at 100% view. I've literally lost count of the number of times I've seen this basic error repeated: you simply cannot assess a camera's IQ by looking at the files at 100% (or, God help us, 200%) views, and yet it happens time and time again. The question "what's the point of all those extra pixels if we can't use them..?", usually used to justify this nonsense, is entirely specious: more pixels still allows significant cropping advantage - I'm a (frequently focal-length limited) bird photographer, so believe me, I know - but there's simply no case for cropping so deeply into an image that you're looking at it at 100%. It will look crap from any camera. Even without cropping, a higher mp count brings other advantages to the table, such as increased detail and micro contrast (and, despite what some would have you believe, a noise advantage at the image level) - but in order properly to quantify these characteristics, like-for-like comparison is absolutely essential. (And to head off any "it's only the print that matters" arguments, although I don't print as a matter of routine, my 7D allows me to print far bigger and better - even cropped - than I could ever print with my 30D or 40D). Following on from this is the idea that it might be necessary to reconsider workflow choices: it is a simple, incontrovertable fact that some converters are better than others, yet I've seen arguments made along the lines that because converter A was good with camera X, the same converter should be just as good with new, high megapixel camera Y. The Real World isn't like that, and it falls to us to make informed choices about how to get the best out of our new cameras: it's particularly naive to make assumptions that old ways will suit cameras with new charactistics. Expanding further on this point, it's therefore often necessary to look again at such things as sharpening. Files from high pixel count cameras need to be sharpened differently - and possibly to a greater extent - than cameras with fewer, bigger pixels: that's just the "physics" the thing (which should be obvious if you understand what software sharpening actually is).

This doesn't imply wholesale changes to workflow - I'm using essentially the exact same workflow I used to use on my 30D in 2006, tweaked to accommodate new cameras' characteristics - and any user who doesn't accept that things change, has only himself to blame. By way of example, this is an <a href="http://www.capture-the-moment.co.uk/tp/tfu29/upload/IMG_3431.jpg">off the camera image from my 7D</a>; and this is <a href="http://www.capture-the-moment.co.uk/tp/tfu29/upload/muscovy_bolam_PN_1.jpg">the same file, properly processed</a>. See the difference? The detail and sharpeness is all there, in the file, but it has to be brought out: many people make the assumption that (apparently) soft off the camera = game over, which is clearly not the case.

(No lack of DR in the hightlights either, you'll notice - something else "experts" say small pixels will struggle with). This all ties in nicely with William's excellent advice - it's still part of "learning the camera" - but in a broader context.

Nick D. · December 5, 2012

Keith, your points are valid, but it is not the same file.

keith reeder · December 5, 2012

Offhand I can't remember if they're from the same file (I can't see the Exif from this machine), but if not, they're only a fraction of a second apart and entirely identical in IQ terms - the size difference is only a resize diference.

hakhtar · December 5, 2012

William, you have been positive in your response and I prefer this! I don't think the point about 7D relates to the change from one camera to another and getting used to the 'new toy'. I have been using a camera for the past 40 years so I know the camera mechanics and operations, and inter relationships between various camera functions.

Over many years I have progressed from Pentax to Olympus to Canon 350D to 500D to 5D to 5DII (my current) and then added 7D simply to increase the reach of my 70-200 f2.8 II, 24-70 f2.8 etc. The point is that I never had the hassle of moving from one camera to other as I'm having with 7D, and this annoys me, and what annoys me further is the defensive attitudes of some 7D loyalists who try to rubbish the users rather than 7D!

ann_overland · December 5, 2012

You are showing us two different pictures, Keith. The second picture is not a processed version of the first one.

DickArnold · December 5, 2012

A couple of years ago I developed and taught a four hour course in beginning photography for about forty people. Guess what? I think I learned more from my students than I taught. I taught two hour segments and almost everyone signed up for the second segment. My students all brought cameras of varying size and shape from p&s to Professional cameras and in between. I determined the level of teaching I did by polling the level of the students. What I found were people who were taking pictures sometimes with some success but without much knowledge of what they were doing or why they were doing it. These gaps in knowledge are quite constraining because when something went wrong they usually could not think their way past it. People here on PN say read the manual. Many of my students did not have enough photographic vocabulary to understand what they were reading in sometimes very difficult to understand manuals. The extensive caveats in my 7D manual are quite off-putting. A lot of people really get by with the green square on some fairly sophisticated cameras. But then along comes a camera like the 7D that requires some analytical skills to use effectively and the green square only goes so far. My sister shoots for wildlife magazines and is quite successful. She is one of those green square shooters with a D60 and she gets away with it in her particular setting most of the time: then she calls me.

So where does one start teaching? I started by talking about light and how any camera manages it. "Light goes through a hole. The size of the hole determines in part how much light gets into the camera. The other determinant is how long you keep the hole open. Now if you can't get enough light for what you are trying to do you can turn up the volume etc." I later gave proper names to these functions. Most of my students did not know these basics. Later in the course I gave formal names to these functions. My sessions were interactive, I did not lecture. I used a lot of my own large prints to demo DOF etc. We handled cameras, stopped for questions, took pictures and generally had some fun.

My point is that there are a whole lot of people who move beyond the basics in buying mass market cameras including DSLRs who don't know these basics who then blame the camera. I am not talking necessarily anyone on this forum.

My teaching objectives for the four hours were to get these beginners off the green square and onto PASM. To teach them about aperture, shutter speed and ISO and their relationship to one another and to give them enough vocabulary to read the basics of their manuals. I succeeded with some I think and bombed out with others. I hoped also to get them far enough to correct under and over exposure and something about DOF.

One observation. The people who comment on this forum are far beyond the basics in sophistication, skill and photographic knowledge from the general camera buyer. You are in the minority of all people who use cameras of varying degrees of complication. I think is considerate to have patience with those who come on PN for help and who don't quite know how effectively express their issues. They, in my experience, are in the majority and we need to get them to keep coming back. PN could use the business.

Also, this is a worldwide forum and having lived away from the US for six years and studied another language and culture I believe there are great cultural differences in how people here on PN use their generally excellent English as a second language. I respect those differenes which include the way ideas are formed and given emphasis.

William Michael · December 5, 2012

William, you have been positive in your response and I prefer this!

</blockquote>

Then that is a nice comment, thank you:

But it was not my intention. It was not my intention to be negative, either.

It was my intention to answer your question professionally (for me) and therefore helpfully (to you), without error and without emotion.

IF you are referring to my being ‘more positive’ meaning I was ‘more negative’ previously on this thread – then you are very much misunderstanding what I am writing.

***

I don't think the point about 7D relates to the change from one camera to another and getting used to the 'new toy'.

</blockquote>

Again, then, I fear that you have not understood what I am writing.

It is you who now describes the camera as a 'toy': I have used the word 'tool' (fourteen times I believe) - never the noun 'toy'.

If you seriously think of your 7D as a 'new toy', then you are behind the eight ball in my professional (teaching) opinion.

***

I have been using a camera for the past 40 years so I know the camera mechanics and operations, and inter relationships between various camera functions.

</blockquote>

I think I can out do you by about 10 years, using a camera – so what does that mean? Am I 25% more knowledgeable apropos camera mechanics, operations and inter relationships between various camera functions?

***

Over many years I have progressed from Pentax to Olympus to Canon 350D to 500D to 5D to 5DII (my current) and then added 7D simply to increase the reach of my 70-200 f2.8 II, 24-70 f2.8 etc.

</blockquote>

Me too – and the short list of the major ones is: Minolta, Nikon, Rollei, 'blad, Arca Swiss, Toyo, Pentax, Nikon, Canon, Leica, Speed Graphic, Bolex and Bell & Howell: again my list being longer than your list doesn’t prove anything about what we know about those cameras we have used – it only means we could know about them, from our firsthand experience.

***

The point is that I never had the hassle of moving from one camera to other as I'm having with 7D,

</blockquote>

Yes I understand that.

***

and this annoys me,

</blockquote>

Yes, I get that also.

***

and what annoys me further is the defensive attitudes of some 7D loyalists who try to rubbish the users rather than 7D!

</blockquote>

And that is a silly attitude to hold, in my opinion: as it will hinder your progress in indentifying how best to use your 7D camera . . . too busy worrying about the next door neighbour’s emotions and not dealing with facts, is just a waste of time.

***

Instead of our intercourse revolving around you seeking a more positive approach from me and my answering questions in as a professional manner as I might; you might consider answering my implied question of you, that which I asked my Student:

Hold your 7D camera up in Landscape Orientation and explain to me, in detail, why you have THAT finger over the Shutter Release button.

Because if one has any understanding of the 'Art of the Samurai' and if this were a serious conversation and one intended to be moved forward by both parties. . . that question would have been already been addressed and answered and the answer re-thought, probably twice over . . .

And we would certainly NOT be discussing how many cameras we each have used over the past 40 or 50 years - a conversations which certainly has its place, no mistake . . .

BUT if that conversation is going to be so long and engaging - I would prefer it with a Fine Brandy, later in the evening and not on a workday.

WW

keith reeder · December 5, 2012

Here's the actual original:

http://www.capture-the-moment.co.uk/tp/tfu29/upload/muscovy_unprocessed.jpg

A couple of years ago I developed and taught a four hour course in beginning photography for about forty people. Guess what? I think I learned more from my students than I taught.

</blockquote>

Couldn't agree more - I always learn a lot when I'm showing other people how to achieve something.

I think is considerate to have patience with those who come on PN for help and who don't quite know how effectively express their issues.

</blockquote>

It's not clear whether that's directed at me or is intended more generally, but I'll take a stab at answering answer on my own behalf and on behalf of the rather high number of contributors who also took issue with the sentiments expressed by the OP - and others.

I'm never happier than when I can help someone. By no stretch of the imagination was the initial post a request for help.

No, it wasn't remotely that. It was - purely and simply - bashing.

Had Kamran asked for help (and - note - I get no sense that Kamran would struggle to communicate a request for help or advice in clear terms), he would have gotten it.

But what he did was declare - on the basis (by his own reckoning) of practically no experience of the camera - that it was a catastrophe.

This absolutely flies in the face of the available evidence and of the significant amount of shared experience and knowledge on this forum of the 7D, and this needed to be made clear in unambiguous terms.

I've said before, and I'll say again, that I take the question at the top of the Confirm Message page seriously - the bit that asks:

Then ask yourself if, when someone stumbles upon this exchange four years from now via a Google search, they are going to say 'that was worth my time to read'.

</blockquote>

Sometimes, to ensure that a thread has the right value to those who come after, it's necessary to make a point pretty robustly.

Call it "tough love"...

William Michael · December 5, 2012

Aside:

This thread has many qualities and much content: most of the content is quite revealing.

And this thread has many tangents from the OP – one here:

“One observation. The people who comment on this forum are far beyond the basics in sophistication, skill and photographic knowledge from the general camera buyer. You are in the minority of all people who use cameras of varying degrees of complication. I think is considerate to have patience with those who come on PN for help and who don't quite know how effectively express their issues. They, in my experience, are in the majority and we need to get them to keep coming back. PN could use the business.

Also, this is a worldwide forum and having lived away from the US for six years and studied another language and culture I believe there are great cultural differences in how people here on PN use their generally excellent English as a second language. I respect those differenes which include the way ideas are formed and given emphasis.”

</blockquote>

Personally I have great respect for Dick and also Dick’s comments. Respect is built over time – time reading what has been written before. And these two paragraphs require, in fact deserve comment, because of that.

I agree that it is not only considerate but also professional to have patience with those who do not know how express their issues effectively and I understand this is a worldwide forum and even within the people who use Written English Language everyday; there are words which are misunderstood or meanings of nuance which are interpreted differently between cultures:

The USA especially can’t even spell words properly . . . See that is a joke – which could be easily misunderstood.

But the point is the conduit here IS the written word and it IS the English Language.

So just as much as it behoves the Respondents to hang in there and understand and dig out what the actual issue might be for the OP: it is equally the duty of the OP to read literally and NOT take everything as ‘bashing’ or simply an emotional retort – especially if the OP is basically emotional, in the first inst.

This is also my point of view upon many Respondents’ emotional comments -simply on others’ replies to the OP.

WW

hakhtar · December 5, 2012

William, please don't misread me!

Furthermore, I glean that on the basis of the name of some contributors, there is now a kind of emphasis on the use of English language! Why this reference to English only in a 7D thread?

ann_overland · December 5, 2012

Keith, I can't imagine that the software I am using could ever retrieve those highlights. How did you do that?

William Michael · December 5, 2012

Husain, I doubt that I misread you.

There is no basis for your claim that comments are predicted by contributors’ names.

There are many references on other threads to using Written English, as the communication here

You continue to ask more (irrelevant) questions and yet have still not answered my question in response to YOUR request for my assistance.

WW

William Michael · December 5, 2012

“By way of example, this is an off the camera image from my 7D; and this is the same file, properly processed. See the difference? The detail and sharpeness is all there, in the file, but it has to be brought out: . . . (No lack of DR in the hightlights either, you'll notice - something else "experts" say small pixels will struggle with). This all ties in nicely with . . . excellent advice - it's still part of "learning the camera" - but in a broader context.”

</blockquote>

Back to the Original Post and the Subject of the 7D, specifically:

By way of simile: I know exactly how far I can push: a 20D; a 30D; a 5D; a 5DMkII; a 400D and a 450D for Highlight White: a fact which I deem is absolutely necessary knowledge for any Wedding Portraiture.

Thanks to Keith’s examples, I know for a fact that a 7D can be pushed at least one stop, provided one uses Keith’s Post Processing methods.

(unless there is a massive deception with those images - which would be just plain silly)

This 1 Stop in the capacity of the 7D, is superior latitude than that which I have ever attained with any of my above listed cameras, except the 5DMkII: my 5D comes close, but really I can only squeeze ¾Stop with any comfortable routine.

It is: knowing; extracting; testing this type of detail which all my commentary here has been based.

It is also knowing what that 1 stop of Highlight White Push capacity means: for example, when NOT photographing whites as a major constuent in the image; for example when using High Key; for example when using Flash as Fill and riding the FEC . . . and etc.

***

Those here, who are owners and users of 7D's and who are questioning the 7D’s capacity as an excellent imaging tool – should have also already picked-up on that fact, which Keith has generously provided.

And they should have picked-up on and many, many more operational facts from ALL the excellent contributions, thus far presented.

***

Crikey: I've only used a 7D hands-on for a few hours - maybe five: but I have a truckload of information about the 7D from my few hours work.

Really and truly: the information is out there and can be garnered from very experienced hands-on users; the mathematics and the specifications are public knowledge – all it requires is a little bit of work and the appropriate and open mindset, at the beginning.

WW

hakhtar · December 6, 2012

William, you disappoint me!

You are shunting around the 7D focus and noise issues and in the process implying that some (from the names, you assume) whose first language might not be English (depends which English you know!) don't fully understand camera instructions or the iffy messages here, misinterpreting others language and reasoning, making a big academic issue about the 'first finger', making some erratic conclusions - I could only conclude from all this that your understanding of and the reasoning for the 7D issues has serious problems.

hakhtar · December 6, 2012

William, for your easy reference:

“to read and understand the words and what they mean” and “But the point is the conduit here IS the written word and it IS the English Language”!

You say: "There is no basis for your claim that comments are predicted by contributors’ names" - who is saying this? The point made was that based on the name of the contributors, assumption has been made about their grip on the English language and hence to point out the need to fully comprehend and express in English!

john_r._fulton_jr. · December 6, 2012

Hi Kamran - I'm curious. After six days of discussion and 117 responses did you get your question answered?

William Michael · December 6, 2012

Husain, it appears clear you do wish to continue discussing the assumptions you introduced and refuse to discuss the 7D and methods for learning new photographic equipment.

WW

mark_pierlot · December 7, 2012

What a colossal waste of time this thread has been for those such as William who have, in good faith, taken time and effort to respond to the empty diatribe of the original poster, who has responded in anything but good faith.

We all should have clued in at the outset that this guy ain't got a clue (or perhaps he does, and is merely trolling). After all, he opens his post with this:

Yep.. Here comes another 7D hater... I own this camera for 3 weeks and and my last word is I'm disappointed and I hate it... I just can't rely on it anymore...

</blockquote>

My question to you, colossal time waster, is, was there a time in the past three weeks that you could rely on it? And why, in any case, would you expect to rely on a camera that you'd only had for three weeks? Did you bother to become acquainted with the camera over these past three long weeks? Or are you just venting about your ignorance?

I stand by my previous comment: If you really despise your 7D that much, please, please send it to me. I'll be happy to put you out of your misery.

keith reeder · December 7, 2012

Keith, I can't imagine that the software I am using could ever retrieve those highlights. How did you do that?

</blockquote>

Hi Ann,

with that example I used Photo Ninja for the main highlight recovery "heavy lifting", with slight fine tuning using the Shadows/Highlights tool in Photoshop - very straightforward, nothing complicated, just adjust the sliders to taste.

I also have absolute faith in Lightroom to recover highlights to a similar extent (and actually have an older Lightroom-converted version of the image <a href="http://www.capture-the-moment.co.uk/tp/tfu29/upload/muscovy_duck_bolam_1a.jpg">here</a>, again with a little bit of adjustment in Photoshop).

This is an important point - I've made it already, and I'll make it again: some (most?) converters, and some (most?) PP software cannot do this, in the same way that some converters are much better at maximising the noise/detail trade-off. In order to maximise our images, especially with newer cameras that present new and different challenges to the software we use (I am happy to admit that the 7D is "different" to what went before, and does present new challenges) we have to be smart about our converter/PP/workflow decisions.

I've worked damn' hard to create a workflow that gives me the IQ I want (and I'll put the IQ of my pictures up against anyone else's in any comparable genre), which is why I baulk at posts like the one that started this thread. I've used my 7D for three years now and am as happy with it today as I was the day it first "clicked" with me (note - it wasn't immediate for me either, but rather than automatically assume it was a crap camera, I worked to identify what was going on and figured out what needed to be done to address the issues I was seeing) and I know that my images are - well, they're more than acceptable, put it that way. Which begs the question: who's likely to be right about the 7D? A user like me who has learned to get the best out of it (which isn't hard, incidentally), who has used it very effectively in properly challenging circumstances for three years, and is still blown away by its capabilities? Or someone who gave it a whole three weeks, did no analysis of what his "issues" might be (hell, it took me more than three weeks before I was satisfied I'd read the manual enough!) and arrogantly assumed that because he was an "old hand" the problem couldn't possibly be anywhere but with the camera?

His comments about the 7D's AF are telling, for example - believe me the 7D's AF is excellent, but only if you set it up and use it properly: and by "9 point automatic af" I assume he means "Zone" AF - the 7D doesn't even have a "9 point automatic" mode a la the previous bodies.

Credibility gap right there, then...

<a href="http://www.capture-the-moment.co.uk/tp/tfu29/upload/pigeon_blyth_6.jpg">This</a> is with Zone - sharp enough? And although I'm not an habitual Bird In Flight shooter, I've got hundreds and hundreds of silly-sharp BIF images, almost all captured using Zone.

Importantly, in terms of my workflow it is (as I've said previously) no different in essence to what I did back in my 30D days, but it has developed in order to accommodate the nuances of new cameras as they've arrived. You have to move with the times.

abbas_haider · December 7, 2012

This is obvious when people change from

one cam to the others. I have 7D and its the

first cam after nikon set. And I m extremely

happy with and doing great with it. I know

you can blindly change the setting with you

30D and that what hold you back. But play

with your tools and you will not look back

just you have to spend some time.

In one of my trip I was using my 7d and one

guy ask me to take a picture with his 60D

and it was on auto. When I tried to change

the dial to manual it was locked and I didn't

know how to do it because I haven't used it

till that time.

ann_overland · December 7, 2012

Thanks a lot, Keith! I appreciate it very much.

hakhtar · December 7, 2012

Keith, please tell us all about "but only if you set it up and use it properly" - what exactly to do and how to do this, please! What is this magic set up and how to use this divine 7D properly! Thanks!

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